Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Black Book Discussion

[Ol' Kentuck]

Speculations on two sides, and on my side it really is just a picture I stumbled onto on the internet, nothing more related to what I am doing than that..As I came to understand it, Mr. Burnham took the photo and it became part of his own personal collection passed on until his death and they were purchased by another young architect at auction. I have been wrong before many times, but he had a private friendship with Paul Morton and sat at his private "round table" of millionaire monopolists at the Chicago Club and was handed many many important contracts for some very special buildings. That is good enough for me to find out what I want to know, and when I put it with what I already know about the money trails with it My scale tips. If you can prove it is him I would be grateful and very willing to believe you just to know the truth of the matter. The private party has quite a guest list, do you have ALL of the names of the men pictured, and where did you find the information? How many monopolists CAN you name? LMAO! I would like to see it. Don't let my lame speculations be a post for you to stand on to crow, you might fall on your butt from standing up on a weak foundation! There is no doubt in my mind that there was a hell of a lot more going on at that occasion than was ever publicized I am sure, and considering the location and attendees I would guess it had something to do with MONEY. They are pictured without their spouses or any females present at that time on that day of the festivities/celebration that was being attended by both men and women and it lasted more than one day. When you know someone is involved you become very suspicious of EVERYONE they come into contact with out of reflex, it doesn't mean any more than you are well informed about their aquaintance. Teddy Roosevelt's involvement with the men we know to be members is already proven on many levels. Whether or not he was at the celebration for Paul Morton's Navel appointment BY HIM has no bearing, either way, except to say my speculation of the man's attendance that day was either correct or incorrect. savvy? https://www.marxists.org/archive/debs/works/1907/1907-roosevelt.htm

View attachment 1680423

SPECULATION - " How many monopolist can you name in this picture? I suspect the man standing with his arms crossed is Teddy Roosevelt, nervously wondering who let the guy in with the camera! "

MISINFORMATION - " How many monopolist can you name in this picture with President Teddy Roosevelt? He is the man standing nervously with his arms crossed wondering who let the guy in with the camera! "

Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner!





Crow? My friend, you are very mistaken if you think I enjoy discovering Misinformation stated as Fact. Quite tha opposite actually. There is nothing ta crow about misleading people, or running across someone who has been misled.

You simply made tha same mistake many others have and continue to make, by running across something on tha internet that you felt bolstered your own theory/opinions (Confirmation Bias) and ran with it without researching tha source any further. If you had bothered to do so, and spent more effort than just street sweeping tha net, you would have found that there is a mountain of information on both Burnham and Roosevelt in records stored by tha Library of Congress. Practically every day of Roosevelt's Presidency is documented, including his schedule. There are boxes of correspondence and private diaries of Daniel Burnham there as well.

Real research requires more than surfing tha net. In fact, so much disinformation exists on tha web already, a feller always has ta confirm what they find there with additional sources of information. Always get to tha Primary Source whenever possible. That is tha Best Piece of Advice I Can Give You, and I truly would like to see you SUCCEED. Meanwhile, posting yer own Misinformation all over tha net will only be detrimental ta both you, and tha unsuspecting public who stumbles across it (tha same way you did with tha architect's misinformation on his blog). Don't shoot tha messenger, friend. If I can be of any assistance just shoot me a PM.

And Kace is right again as usual, we are getting out of order here regarding tha BB, and here on I will restrain my comments to tha proper timeline. My apologies Kace, thanks fer puttin' up with us.

 

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[franklin]

I believe It was all about money after 1866. The plan for what to do with it was manipulated for a few months and then a few years and then who knows, but I can safely say that it carried on until at least 1904. In my heart, as much as I want to believe that Jesse was there to see it, the facts say he was dead. However,,,, there is this fella setting in a rocker at a special meeting that took place in 1904 that looks one heck of a lot like the man......just say'n

View attachment 1680125

If JJ was still alive I do not think FJ his brother would have been outside the home gate selling tickets to buy pebbles from JJ's Grave. Nor would he be in shows all over demonstrating his shooting talents. JJ Dead In 1884

 

[L.C. BAKER]

SPECULATION - " How many monopolist can you name in this picture? I suspect the man standing with his arms crossed is Teddy Roosevelt, nervously wondering who let the guy in with the camera! "

MISINFORMATION - " How many monopolist can you name in this picture with President Teddy Roosevelt? He is the man standing nervously with his arms crossed wondering who let the guy in with the camera! "

Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner!


View attachment 1680548


Crow? My friend, you are very mistaken if you think I enjoy discovering Misinformation stated as Fact. Quite tha opposite actually. There is nothing ta crow about misleading people, or running across someone who has been misled.

You simply made tha same mistake many others have and continue to make, by running across something on tha internet that you felt bolstered your own theory/opinions (Confirmation Bias) and ran with it without researching tha source any further. If you had bothered to do so, and spent more effort than just street sweeping tha net, you would have found that there is a mountain of information on both Burnham and Roosevelt in records stored by tha Library of Congress. Practically every day of Roosevelt's Presidency is documented, including his schedule. There are boxes of correspondence and private diaries of Daniel Burnham there as well.

Real research requires more than surfing tha net. In fact, so much disinformation exists on tha web already, a feller always has ta confirm what they find there with additional sources of information. Always get to tha Primary Source whenever possible. That is tha Best Piece of Advice I Can Give You, and I truly would like to see you SUCCEED. Meanwhile, posting yer own Misinformation all over tha net will only be detrimental ta both you, and tha unsuspecting public who stumbles across it (tha same way you did with tha architect's misinformation on his blog). Don't shoot tha messenger, friend. If I can be of any assistance just shoot me a PM.

And Kace is right again as usual, we are getting out of order here regarding tha BB, and here on I will restrain my comments to tha proper timeline. My apologies Kace, thanks fer puttin' up with us.

 

[Kace]

Just A Little Update on a couple of characters mentioned in passing by JJ3 in the BB as we move on.

Elbert Dewitt Travis is Claimed by JJ3 to be William Clark Quantrill's Real Name.

Dewitt Travis is Claimed by JJ3 to be Quantrill's Grandson.

Next up is the Reveal of J. Frank Dalton as Jesse Woodson James in Lawton, OK on May 19,1948. I'm not going to repeat all of that here because the Lawton Constitution Newspaper from then is Online for anyone who wants to read it.

JJ3 says among others that I listed earlier that Cole Younger using the alias Col. James R. Davis of Nashville, TN was at the July 7th Guthrie, Oklahoma parade as was Billy the Kid.

More to follow....

Kace

 

[L.C. BAKER]

SPECULATION

And Kace is right again as usual, we are getting out of order here regarding tha BB, and here on I will restrain my comments to tha proper timeline. My apologies Kace, thanks fer puttin' up with us.

#ME TOO,
L.C.

 

[Kace]

Back to JJ3 and the BB..

Chicago,1948: JJ3 mentions another cousin of JWJ named Denzil (Dan) Teza who he says was still alive in 1972...Apparently he was one of the affidavit signers saying JFD was JWJ.

Next is JWJ is wondering about where his cousin Jesse ROBERT (Dingus) James is. This is the Jesse James who JJ3 says was born 9-5-1847 in Clay County, MO.

A relative of his, JJ3 says, provides the information that Jesse Dingus is 101yrs old and living in Cottage Hill, Florida under the name Joseph L. Hines. Laying Low.

I'm not familiar with the Teza name. Anyone else know it?

Kace

 

[Kace]

Next Stop In The BB...JJ3 says they stop in Atlanta, GA to visit family of JWJ (JFD) and says his Mother was Mollie Dalton.

JJ3 says that JWJ is anxious to get to Pensacola, Florida to see his cousin Jesse R.'Dingus' James and when they arrived at the San Carlos Hotel, JWJ sent word to Dingus to meet them there. Two days go by without Dingus showing up and then JJ3, ('The Hawk') looked out the window and saw an old man sitting against a wall with dark glasses on and his hat off...JJ3 says people were dropping coins in his hat as they walked by.

JJ3 says he had seen this man the day before and suddenly realizes It's Cousin Dingus!! JJ3 gets Two Silver Dollars and walks by the man and tosses One Dollar in his hat and says 'Turkey Tracks'. JJ3 walks a little farther, turns around and comes back while tossing the second Silver Dollar in his hat says 'Seen a Turtle Go By my friend'?.....

Kace

 

[Rebel - KGC]

HA! I remember THAT part... both "sayings" were CODE-WORDS... HEH!

 

[White Heart]

Kace,
I read the BB years ago. Just found my notes. On page 14 there is a man named Cyclone Denton, identified as a JJ gang member. Do you have any info about this fellow?
In 1863 one of the men I am following was staying in a St Louis hotel with a 28 year old Stephen Denton from Illinois who identified as a horse trader. They both were caught up in the draft act and signed up. My guy has no military record after this. I have done some research for Stephen and or Cyclone Denton but have come up with nothing. Anyone ever heard of him?
Thanks.
WH

 

[Kace]

Kace,
I read the BB years ago. Just found my notes. On page 14 there is a man named Cyclone Denton, identified as a JJ gang member. Do you have any info about this fellow?
In 1863 one of the men I am following was staying in a St Louis hotel with a 28 year old Stephen Denton from Illinois who identified as a horse trader. They both were caught up in the draft act and signed up. My guy has no military record after this. I have done some research for Stephen and or Cyclone Denton but have come up with nothing. Anyone ever heard of him?
Thanks.
WH

WH...I looked for some of these guys too and many do not exist...

If he did exist I believe "Cyclone Denton" would of been one of the guys supposedly on the Slave Owners Boxing Circuit like John Trammel "The Black Cobra" supposedly was. I don't know that to be fact, but if so, Denton would be the name to search through the slave schedules.

If he was one of the Black Boxers, it's highly unlikely he would of been staying in a Hotel in 1863 in Missouri...Unless that hotel was owned by someone in that sport and segregated rooms were available.

That's Just My Thoughts...I've not found him either.

Kace

 

[Kace]

***NOTICE***

This Topic Of The Black Book Will Be Resuming Sometime Within The Next Week.

I'll Repost The Guidelines We All Agreed To Before.

Let's Keep It Fun This Time and All Are Welcome.

AFTER we've finished, we can start another thread with everyone's thoughts and analogies of the book.

Kace

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

Well, as someone ignorant of most of this topic, I will ask this: Did the KGC actually exist? If so, does it still exist? What can be proven?
It seems to me someone with the resources-maybe a team- could dig into this, do the forensics, and come to some answers.
Not sure if it matters so much about who was related to Jesse. Maybe what matters are people who currently exist who know secret things, know each other.

 

[Kace]

Well, as someone ignorant of most of this topic, I will ask this: Did the KGC actually exist? If so, does it still exist? What can be proven?
It seems to me someone with the resources-maybe a team- could dig into this, do the forensics, and come to some answers.
Not sure if it matters so much about who was related to Jesse. Maybe what matters are people who currently exist who know secret things, know each other.

HBP...I spent quite awhile researching these same questions....Others have spent decades researching the KGC and searching for treasure.

Yes, there was actually a group called Knights of the Golden Circle/KGC. You can research that online at LoC. Don't go to anyone's personal site.

As of Now, it cannot be proven it still exists in any form under that or any other name. There are speculations, but none that have been proven.

It would be Really Hard to research it with Any amount of resources since there has never been a recovery of anything that shows it was KGC....

This book being discussed, written in 1975 is what started the KGC Buzz due to the claims of large treasure vaults. There was another book by the same author written in 1961 and also claims of Jesse James/Cole Younger involvement by his sidekick in the 1930's. There's More Than A Couple Imposters Involved.

That's where JJ comes in, because the book claims he was high ranking KGC operative. Or the Top Guy.

Bob Brewers book Rebel Gold/Shadow of the Sentinal (same book, different titles) really reignited the KGC frenzy in 2003 Due to the claims of large treasure vaults.

I hope you participate in this discussion...It's Not A Completely Fact Based Book By Any Stretch, But there are things that did happen that can be proven. Other Claims...Not so much. Just ask questions and take everything said with a grain of salt...this discussion is to prove or disprove the claims in the book by using Official Records and Newspapers of the Time Only....No Opinions By Anyone til we've finished. You don't have to have the book to participate.

Just a Heads Up...There are some people who completely believe it and some that believe the whole thing was a scam and con. You'll get a lot of Opinions after the book is discussed.

Hope You Join In!

Kace

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

HBP...I spent quite awhile researching these same questions....Others have spent decades researching the KGC and searching for treasure.

Yes, there was actually a group called Knights of the Golden Circle/KGC. You can research that online at LoC. Don't go to anyone's personal site.

As of Now, it cannot be proven it still exists in any form under that or any other name. There are speculations, but none that have been proven.

It would be Really Hard to research it with Any amount of resources since there has never been a recovery of anything that shows it was KGC....

This book being discussed, written in 1975 is what started the KGC Buzz due to the claims of large treasure vaults. There was another book by the same author written in 1961 and also claims of Jesse James/Cole Younger involvement by his sidekick in the 1930's. There's More Than A Couple Imposters Involved.

That's where JJ comes in, because the book claims he was high ranking KGC operative. Or the Top Guy.

Bob Brewers book Rebel Gold/Shadow of the Sentinal (same book, different titles) really reignited the KGC frenzy in 2003 Due to the claims of large treasure vaults.

I hope you participate in this discussion...It's Not A Completely Fact Based Book By Any Stretch, But there are things that did happen that can be proven. Other Claims...Not so much. Just ask questions and take everything said with a grain of salt...this discussion is to prove or disprove the claims in the book by using Official Records and Newspapers of the Time Only....No Opinions By Anyone til we've finished. You don't have to have the book to participate.

Just a Heads Up...There are some people who completely believe it and some that believe the whole thing was a scam and con. You'll get a lot of Opinions after the book is discussed.

Hope You Join In!

Kace

Well, thanks for the info.
So I wonder, based on known robberies by Jesse, was there enough gold to cache.
I have a strong feeling there are old Southern families who have never got over the War. Abdolutely un-reconstructed Rebels. Not hard to imagine secret societies. As someone said, a secret society is not a secret if people know about it.
Are there provable amounts of missing gold, bank transactions?
Maybe I better go back and get some idea of this thread.
Amazing really, how this Jesse James still has a grip on the imagination of folks to this day. On the face of it he was a robber and killer.

 

[Kace]

Well, thanks for the info.
So I wonder, based on known robberies by Jesse, was there enough gold to cache.
I have a strong feeling there are old Southern families who have never got over the War. Abdolutely un-reconstructed Rebels. Not hard to imagine secret societies. As someone said, a secret society is not a secret if people know about it.
Are there provable amounts of missing gold, bank transactions?
Maybe I better go back and get some idea of this thread.
Amazing really, how this Jesse James still has a grip on the imagination of folks to this day. On the face of it he was a robber and killer.

Take a look at these maps.

JJ/Youngers and Quantrill etc became infamous due to what Missouri went through during the war. They were looked on as protectors from the Union Militias and Lincoln who devastated the residents of Missouri as a Border State.

It was bad and there are Still Very Raw Feelings in Central and SWMO.

There is some gold and silver unaccounted for from the war. franklin could probably tell you how much or it can be researched. That won't take long. It didn't all come from JJ and Co.

I tend to believe there are Community, Family and CSA and CSA Sympathizer type caches still. Those could be very lucrative finds. Towns and families hid valuables when they heard Lane or other militias were heading towards their area. Lane took over $1m from Osceola alone. But Osceola and the residents Hid that much or more before he got there. There's a lot of hidden caches still even down through your area.

After we go through the book...There will be a discussion about the vaults that are talked about in the book. Ask some of these guys who hunt them what they have found to give them an idea of the amount of gold and silver they are hunting for. I don't do that on that level so I can't really give you a great answer...Sorry about that HB!





Kace

This book is kinda like the movie Forrest Gump...A lot of familiar names and factual events...But a lot of embellishment and fake stuff too. Some people believe it's an allegory. Regardless...just going through the book and dissecting it will explain many things that you hear or read, where it came from and explain why many men or their kin have claimed to be Jesse or Frank James. It'll be interesting!!

 

[uglymailman]

Hey Kace. Your attachment didn't work. And just for clarifacation, the million Jim Lane and his Redleg's took from Osceola,MO. was not gold or cash, or at least not all of it. It was wagon load after wagon load of "goods" hauled back to Kansas (50-100 miles). For those unfamiliar, at the time Osceola was the farthest point a boat could go into western MO. and was a jump off point for goods going west. They sent things to Fort Scott,KS. and the Shawnee Missions. Wesport,MO. was 120 miles north and slightly west but Osceola served those area's between and to the south and west. In good times boats could get further upriver to the French settlement (as it was known) at what is today Taberville,MO. It's a good bet some orchards in today's Kansas started in the ground in MO. as Lane and Tennison were know to even dig up the orchards and haul them back to Kansas. Good luck.

 

[Kace]

Hey Kace. Your attachment didn't work. And just for clarifacation, the million Jim Lane and his Redleg's took from Osceola,MO. was not gold or cash, or at least not all of it. It was wagon load after wagon load of "goods" hauled back to Kansas (50-100 miles). For those unfamiliar, at the time Osceola was the farthest point a boat could go into western MO. and was a jump off point for goods going west. They sent things to Fort Scott,KS. and the Shawnee Missions. Wesport,MO. was 120 miles north and slightly west but Osceola served those area's between and to the south and west. In good times boats could get further upriver to the French settlement (as it was known) at what is today Taberville,MO. It's a good bet some orchards in today's Kansas started in the ground in MO. as Lane and Tennison were know to even dig up the orchards and haul them back to Kansas. Good luck.

You're right UG...I know a lot of monies were hidden away before his arrival. I've got some stories from people there on what personal valuables were hidden and stolen. Some records were saved from the courthouse, but not many.

Later I'll put up what all I have from records and stories of things taken from the Burning of Osceola and see if it matches what you have...I think that would be interesting. I didn't know about the orchards.

I'll fix the attachment and thanks for clarifying my post!!

Kace

 

[uglymailman]

There was also something about Warsaw,MO.. Warsaw is some 30 or so miles as the crow fly's from Osceola, probably twice that distance as the Osage River flows between them. Gen. Fremont of the Union Army tore down most of the houses there to build a pontoon bridge across the Osage. It seems some other buildings were burnt there sometime later. Freemont, the same Army man that went to California to take over that state during the Mexican War and exployer, also had political asperations. While in charge of the Trans Misssouri (Or Trans Mississippi, I disremember) got even more political when he started freeing slaves in MO.. Lincoln recalled and sacked him, not only as a political opponet, but because of what he'd done. Slaves were after all, still property that taxes were paid on and not subject to removal without compensation. Lincoln said if he "could keep the Union together as all free states or all slave states he'd do it. Now that Damned Freemont is making slavery an issue." Sorry, getting away from the Youngers.
From the Clinton (MO) Daily Democrat may 22, 2019. An excerpt from a military after action report dispatch to higher headquarters
Aug.2, 1862- Skirmish on Clear Creek near Taberville,MO.
Report of Col. Fitz Henry Warren, 1st Iowa Cav. Headquarters Butler, Bates Co. MO.
To be brief, his command of 135 men under two Capt.'s attacked 400-500 guerrillas near Gordon's farm, on Clear Creek, corner of St. Clair Co.. 4 kia, 9 wia.
Upon regrouping and starting a second attack, they found the rebels had dispersed. Sending a rider for help at Butler,MO., the Union Cav. followed. Help came and the rebels were found again, now numbering 700 and another skirmish was had with Union losses of 2 kia and 3 wia. Captured a rebel Capt. Clarey who escaped after sawing a rivet of his ball and chain had confessed to losses of 11 kia and 18 wia. He saved the lives of the Union wounded and also protected them from plunder.
"The whole country is now in the brush. We need carbines and cannon. Carbines we must have. It is no better than murder to send men into the brush fights with Colt's navy revolvers. Some of my command (140) whom I took out had nothing but sabers."
"There will be a concentration somewhere and a movement north. There are no troops at Osceola. Murder, plunder and outrage are rife. Half of them have never taken the oath and given bonds, Let me now utter an opinion, which I have express to my friends ever since I came into this service. It is to be a war of extermination. There is no half-way house and no neutral position. We are to be driven out and annihilated or they are. It is an invererate, malignant hatred, which will last to the end of life. After chasing and capturing these unmitigated scoundrels they are being tried by a military commission of some of our best officers, to be fed at the expense of the Government, and after we are dead and gone some of them may by chance be found guilty and have a mild punishment; but of that we take the chances. You can get no positive testimony from these butternuts. They tell one story to the judge-advocate in the morning, but when confronted with the prisoners their evidence amounts to nothing. Excuse a peevish temper. I made 70 miles without sleep or food.
I am, major, respectfully, your obedient servant. Fritz Henry Warren Col. 1st Iowa Cav. to Maj. Lucien J. Barnes Assistant Adjutant-General Jefferson City, MO

Based on his outstanding record as regimental commander of the 1st Iowa Cav., Col. F.H. Warren was meritoriously promoted to the rank of Brigadier General. He was a good officer who cared for his cavalry troopers and was a fighter. The change of command took place at Camp Warren, said to be located 2-3 miles N.E. from the Clinton (MO) Square. The change of command ceremony included martial music by a band, an address to the troops, a pass in review by hundreds of the Iowa Cav. Regiment soldiers concluding with "Auld Lang Syne" being performed by the military musicians.

To be fair, I condensed some of the report, leaving out the description of the skirmish's. I've read some about Col. Warren. He was fair to the civilian population and tried to take action upon any of his troopers that tried taking advantage of civilians. I just wanted to give you an idea of the feelings of the area. Good luck.

 

[Kace]

Ug...I haven't forgotten to put up what all was stolen from Osceola...That I have listed anyway. Been fighting the storms like you have..

I'll do that Before the Black Book Discussion Resumes.

I hope all is well for you guys!

Kace

 

[Kace]

***NOTICE***

This Topic Of The Black Book Will Be Resuming Sometime Within The Next Week.

I'll Repost The Guidelines We All Agreed To Before.

Let's Keep It Fun This Time and All Are Welcome.

AFTER we've finished, we can start another thread with everyone's thoughts and analogies of the book.

Kace

***NOTICE*** #2

I'll post the guidelines for this discussion again within a few days. Then we will get started again.

If you want to participate, try and read what's been posted so far. You Do Not Need The Book To Participate.

The Official Records For The Jesse Woodson James Family of Kearney, MO. Are On The First Page.

I hope there's a lot of participants in this topic for those interested in Outlaws, Youngers, Jesse James, Quantrill, Impostors, Treasure Hunting, KGC, etc.

We are going in order of the book...Guidelines Up In A Few Days...(IF I don't have any more Tornadoes Close By! lol!)

If There Are Any Questions Before Then...Feel Free To Ask.

Thanks,
Kace