Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Black Book Discussion

[Ol' Kentuck]

Could Bill Cody and Jesse James met in a train car yrs. after Jesse's supposed death? Maybe. Could Wild Bill have walked through crowd's unnoticed? Probably not as his main deal as a Showman was to make his image as well know as possible. Perhaps Jesse could as he was supposed to be dead.
With due respect to Ol' Kentuck, not all vet's of The Unpleasantness Between the States had hard feelings for the other side, at least not years after the event. A LOT of them viewed the other guy as someone who had gone through what they had. Urich,MO. will have their 125th Reunion this year. Today it is mostly a time to get together with people that have roots there or have moved away, but 125 years ago it started as an encampment for the vets of that war, with both sides on the same campground. (I have a Lapel Pin that was probably worn at that reunion by a Union Officer who served in 8th and 17th KY. Vol. Calvary.) The same was true a few years later when Wm. Jennings Bryant went to Clinton,MO. (15 miles down the road) and a former Confederate Officer allowed vet's to camp on his property near the Park where Bryant spoke. Urich,MO. is about 3 miles from Cass County,MO., that fell under General Order 11 during the Civil War. That Order declared that anyone living more than a mile from the County Seat had to move. Most of those that moved had their homes burnt, crops destroyed and livestock either killed or confiscated by the Union troops to prevent aid to Parisian Rangers operating in the area. For several years after the war, the only remains of those homesteads where the chimneys that still stood that were dubbed "Tennisons Monuments" after the Kansas Redleg leader. Many homesteads where never rebuilt.
I'm not sure how the Partisan Rangers felt. I have read when they had THEIR reunions they prayed for Tennison and Sen. Jim Lane to burn in Hell.
There is also an account of Cole Younger when in Clinton,MO. with one of the Wild West shows being confronted on the town square and being called "Nothing but a damned secessionist" by a local citizen and Cole pulling a pistol before others could come between them and the citizen being hustled off to safer climes. Not everyone got along. Good luck.

Excellent post Uglymailman

No offense taken UMM, you are absolutely correct. Many Vets went on to live lives unencumbered by hard feelings in later years. Considering JWJ's personal experiences, both during tha war and after, do you believe his animosity could have been tempered in tha years following The Unpleasantness Between The States? Have You seen any Evidence that suggests it may have?

I have no problem at all adjusting my position IF there is credible evidence to justify it.

 

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[uglymailman]

Ol' Kentuck, being friends you can just call me ugly. I think anyone that would pray someone burn in Hell probably had hard feelings. Jesse had problems with the Union because his brother Frank had joined the Partisan Rangers and it went on from there. I don't think that group had problems with anything Union as a whole after the war but the group out of Kansas called Redlegs was another matter. I doubt Jesse was alive years later and I doubt he ever lost his hate. Good luck.

 

[sdcfia]

I'll consider that a compliment, Son.

Beer?

Anytime, Ol' K.

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

Ol' Kentuck, being friends you can just call me ugly. I think anyone that would pray someone burn in Hell probably had hard feelings. Jesse had problems with the Union because his brother Frank had joined the Partisan Rangers and it went on from there. I don't think that group had problems with anything Union as a whole after the war but the group out of Kansas called Redlegs was another matter. I doubt Jesse was alive years later and I doubt he ever lost his hate. Good luck.

And ye can jest call me Old, and keep yer fingers crossed we both don't get moderated.

In complete agreement with ye on yer assessment, well said.

Anytime, Ol' K.

I'll hold ye to that, in fact...after coughin' up them hairballs we could both probly use a cold one or two.

Wonder where our Herd Mistress has got off to, she's fallin' down on tha job an it's only by tha grace o'good hooch we ain't had a stampede.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Jesse held a deep personal hatred for anything Union,

I am pretty darn sure that is what took them to Davies County in 1869 at the request of a wealthy friend and Brother, but I cannot be 100% on it....yet.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

In tha real world, fact checking and JJ3's own contradicting statements in tha BB all appear to disprove any JWJ - Clark association. Just sayin.

Although I agree with your post 100%, I believe it is imperative to realize that the "Real World" can sometimes be very deceptive and filled with lies that create a false persona and thus reflect an illusion that has become excepted as "real" fact instead of being based on the hidden " truth".

Case and point,

History of Nebraska By Morton & Watkins

L.C.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Ol' Kentuck, being friends you can just call me ugly. I think anyone that would pray someone burn in Hell probably had hard feelings. Jesse had problems with the Union because his brother Frank had joined the Partisan Rangers and it went on from there. I don't think that group had problems with anything Union as a whole after the war but the group out of Kansas called Redlegs was another matter. I doubt Jesse was alive years later and I doubt he ever lost his hate. Good luck.

I believe It was all about money after 1866. The plan for what to do with it was manipulated for a few months and then a few years and then who knows, but I can safely say that it carried on until at least 1904. In my heart, as much as I want to believe that Jesse was there to see it, the facts say he was dead. However,,,, there is this fella setting in a rocker at a special meeting that took place in 1904 that looks one heck of a lot like the man......just say'n

 

[L.C. BAKER]

I have no problem at all adjusting my position IF there is credible evidence to justify it.

L.C. Baker

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

I believe It was all about money after 1866. The plan for what to do with it was manipulated for a few months and then a few years and then who knows, but I can safely say that it carried on until at least 1904. In my heart, as much as I want to believe that Jesse was there to see it, the facts say he was dead. However,,,, there is this fella setting in a rocker at a special meeting that took place in 1904 that looks one heck of a lot like the man......just say'n

View attachment 1680125

Stampede!!!

 

[sdcfia]

Although I agree with your post 100%, I believe it is imperative to realize that the "Real World" can sometimes be very deceptive and filled with lies that create a false persona and thus reflect an illusion that has become excepted as "real" fact instead of being based on the hidden " truth".

Case and point,
View attachment 1680120
History of Nebraska By Morton & Watkins

L.C.

"... sometimes ..." Sometimes?!?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Stampede!!!

LOL!

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

I believe It was all about money after 1866. The plan for what to do with it was manipulated for a few months and then a few years and then who knows, but I can safely say that it carried on until at least 1904. In my heart, as much as I want to believe that Jesse was there to see it, the facts say he was dead. However,,,, there is this fella setting in a rocker at a special meeting that took place in 1904 that looks one heck of a lot like the man......just say'n

View attachment 1680125

Looks like many an old geezer ta me.

Ye know, a feller has ta be careful misidentifying vintage or historical photographs, especially when there is access to tha original and documentation available that identifies tha individuals in tha photo.





This photo fer instance, I noticed yer many posts concerning this photo taken at an Arbor Lodge celebration. Ye start out ok by accurately attributing the photo to tha architect Daniel H. Burnham, but then ye misidentify the man himself in tha photo and claim it ta be a "nervous" President Teddy Roosevelt.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/302093087479994896/

" How many monopolist can you name in this picture with President Teddy Roosevelt? He is the man standing nervously with his arms crossed wondering who let the guy in with the camera! "


Hmm, mebbe ye shoulda dug a bit deeper in yer research before ye jumped that railcar...







Ye see, if ye ain't careful ta do yer due diligence, sometimes it can come back and bite ye on tha asterisk.

 

[Kace]

I sincerely doubt that the real JWJ would have been sitting in any rail car or coach talking pleasantries and planning shooting exhibitions with an Ex Union Spy......


View attachment 1679766


And being as how JWJ/Dalton was supposedly also Senator W. A. Clark, seems odd he woulda been at the Chicago Worlds Fair talking shooting exhibitions with BBC for a couple of weeks when his wife just died in their home in New York....

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/49090440/katherine-louise-clark


Ya reckon?

Great Article Kentuck!

Given what the James family went through at the hands of the Union, I agree that the thought of him talking to and trusting any Northener very much is tough to imagine.

Kace

 

[Kace]

1. Cody was certainly recognizable to many Exposition visitors, especially since his appearances were highly advertised in advance. In fact, there's no reason to believe Bill wasn't recognized innumerable times, even though he likely separated himself from the crowds as much as he could. In that photo, most all of the 700,000 gawkers likely only saw a sea of the backs of other peoples' heads.

2. James quite likely would not have been recognized at the Exposition if he was still alive then. Back in 1893, James was eleven years dead to most everyone who knew his history - old and likely forgotten news by then. Besides, nearly all people would not have known him from Adam. Hell, we're still arguing today about what the dude looked like.

3. The Lee character was 18 years old - allegedly born in 1875. This would make this guy a namesake - one of, I imagine, thousands with that name at the time.

Verdict on this particular BB claim: [FONT=&]¿Quién sabe?[/FONT]

HA...I have Robert E Lee______men in my family, so I get that!

I didn't see the 1875 part regarding his age, but there was some kind of mark around that sentence.

To me it gave the impression it was of the General Lee family but didn't say that yet.

I also was thinking that if something like that happened all three men would be together since JJ3 said in the book that JWJ was a guest and Lee was a bodyguard.

Kace

 

[Kace]

Ol' Kentuck, being friends you can just call me ugly. I think anyone that would pray someone burn in Hell probably had hard feelings. Jesse had problems with the Union because his brother Frank had joined the Partisan Rangers and it went on from there. I don't think that group had problems with anything Union as a whole after the war but the group out of Kansas called Redlegs was another matter. I doubt Jesse was alive years later and I doubt he ever lost his hate. Good luck.

I agree Ug...I don't wanna call you Ugly...seems like an insult! Ha!

Having a few ancestors who were with Quantrill at times and having ancestors killed by the Union militia....I see the difference in just two armies opposing each other.

Just speaking from my family experiences and the areas they lived in and the descendants who still do live there and the place I still have...What the militias did will Never Be Forgotten or Forgiven. The bitterness and hatred is too deep and still raw.

I started hearing the stories when I was very young and it was made clear to every person in every generation what had happened. The pictures of those family members are still up and the stories still told.

I do agree that outside of this Missouri area where it was so bad that those that served on both sides could move on over time. It wasn't like it was here everywhere.

I might see you at Urich if you're going this year.

Thanks,

Kace

 

[Kace]

Stampede!!!

I saw you asking where I was...

HA! My dog decided a pin cushion loaded with needles and pins was a red ball and bit into it so hard it exploded and of course he got some sharp stuff in his mouth. I've been with him making sure there's no internal bleeding from swallowing any of the pins and needles.

He's like a little kid, gotta watch him when he wants to play!

Kace

 

[Kace]

I've read everything posted so far about the fair. Some Good Stuff.

We've Got To Stay With Just The BB, Records, Relevant Videos and Newspapers etc pertaining to where we are in the book. We can't jump out of order or talk thoughts and opinions on things that aren't related to the subject at hand in the book.

This book is so confusing, backtracking and out of order as it is...We can't add to that by jumping ahead or talking thoughts on what's ahead.

KGC/OAK or WA Clark haven't come up yet.

Right now in the book, it's Chicago 1893. I'll be posting the next events and characters that come up.

Kace

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Looks like many an old geezer ta me.

Ye know, a feller has ta be careful misidentifying vintage or historical photographs, especially when there is access to the original and documentation available that identifies the individuals in the photo.


View attachment 1680289


This photo fer instance, I noticed yer many posts concerning this photo taken at an Arbor Lodge celebration. Ye start out ok by accurately attributing the photo to tha architect Daniel H. Burnham, but then ye misidentify the man himself in tha photo and claim it ta be a "nervous" President Teddy Roosevelt.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/302093087479994896/

" How many monopolist can you name in this picture with President Teddy Roosevelt? He is the man standing nervously with his arms crossed wondering who let the guy in with the camera! "


Hmm, mebbe ye shoulda dug a bit deeper in yer research before ye jumped that railcar...


View attachment 1680290

View attachment 1680418


Ye see, if ye ain't careful ta do yer due diligence, sometimes it can come back and bite ye on tha asterisk.

Speculations on two sides, and on my side it really is just a picture I stumbled onto on the internet, nothing more related to what I am doing than that..As I came to understand it, Mr. Burnham took the photo and it became part of his own personal collection passed on until his death and they were purchased by another young architect at auction. I have been wrong before many times, but he had a private friendship with Paul Morton and sat at his private "round table" of millionaire monopolists at the Chicago Club and was handed many many important contracts for some very special buildings. That is good enough for me to find out what I want to know, and when I put it with what I already know about the money trails with it My scale tips. If you can prove it is him I would be grateful and very willing to believe you just to know the truth of the matter. The private party has quite a guest list, do you have ALL of the names of the men pictured, and where did you find the information? How many monopolists CAN you name? LMAO! I would like to see it. Don't let my lame speculations be a post for you to stand on to crow, you might fall on your butt from standing up on a weak foundation! There is no doubt in my mind that there was a hell of a lot more going on at that occasion than was ever publicized I am sure, and considering the location and attendees I would guess it had something to do with MONEY. They are pictured without their spouses or any females present at that time on that day of the festivities/celebration that was being attended by both men and women and it lasted more than one day. When you know someone is involved you become very suspicious of EVERYONE they come into contact with out of reflex, it doesn't mean any more than you are well informed about their aquaintance. Teddy Roosevelt's involvement with the men we know to be members is already proven on many levels. Whether or not he was at the celebration for Paul Morton's Navel appointment BY HIM has no bearing, either way, except to say my speculation of the man's attendance that day was either correct or incorrect. savvy? https://www.marxists.org/archive/debs/works/1907/1907-roosevelt.htm

 

[Kace]

Speculations on two sides, and on my side it really is just a picture I stumbled onto on the internet, nothing more related to what I am doing than that..As I came to understand it, Mr. Burnham took the photo and it became part of his own personal collection passed on until his death and they were purchased by another young architect at auction. I have been wrong before many times, but he had a private friendship with Paul Morton and sat at his private "round table" of millionaire monopolists at the Chicago Club and was handed many many important contracts for some very special buildings. That is good enough for me to find out what I want to know, and when I put it with what I already know about the money trails with it My scale tips. If you can prove it is him I would be grateful and very willing to believe you just to know the truth of the matter. The private party has quite a guest list, do you have ALL of the names of the men pictured, and where did you find the information? How many monopolists CAN you name? LMAO! I would like to see it. Don't let my lame speculations be a post for you to stand on to crow, you might fall on your butt from standing up on a weak foundation! There is no doubt in my mind that there was a hell of a lot more going on at that occasion than was ever publicized I am sure, and considering the location and attendees I would guess it had something to do with MONEY. They are pictured without their spouses or any females present at that time on that day of the festivities/celebration that was being attended by both men and women and it lasted more than one day. When you know someone is involved you become very suspicious of EVERYONE they come into contact with out of reflex, it doesn't mean any more than you are well informed about their aquaintance. Teddy Roosevelt's involvement with the men we know to be members is already proven on many levels. Whether or not he was at the celebration for Paul Morton's Navel appointment BY HIM has no bearing, either way, except to say my speculation of the man's attendance that day was either correct or incorrect. savvy? https://www.marxists.org/archive/debs/works/1907/1907-roosevelt.htm

View attachment 1680423

In the BB We Are Still in 1893 Chicago....Could what happened in 1904 Nebraska be discussed on the Roosevelt thread Please?

We can put a pin in this topic here and revisit it if it comes up.

We've Got To Stay Just Within The Parameters of the BB, Records, Newspapers, Relevant Videos and Books etc. We all agreed not to go on just theories or opinions on this thread without documented evidence because it leads to arguments and disagreements.

I'm not picking on Baker or Kentuck, but we can't veer that far off from the book. It's too confusing if we start doing that.

Thank You Guys!

Kace

 

[L.C. BAKER]

In the BB We Are Still in 1893 Chicago....Could what happened in 1904 Nebraska be discussed on the Roosevelt thread Please?

We can put a pin in this topic here and revisit it if it comes up.

We've Got To Stay Just Within The Parameters of the BB, Records, Newspapers, Relevant Videos and Books etc. We all agreed not to go on just theories or opinions on this thread without documented evidence because it leads to arguments and disagreements.

I'm not picking on Baker or Kentuck, but we can't veer that far off from the book. It's too confusing if we start doing that.

Thank You Guys!

Kace

Sorry, Kace got sidetracked on the real stuff, let's get back to the reallity of the fiction.

L.C.