Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Black Book Discussion

[L.C. BAKER]

?with no corroborating evidence in tha Historical Record...or anywhere else for that matter, other than tha authors "Personal Narrative".

I agreed with your post all but this little bit because when a man has something that is new, unknown, and foreign to all known research, the same thing can be said. One should always keep an open mind to unique information and take it as a grain of salt until you want to know if it is true. At that point, you will have to do your own research to find the truth. If it is true, there will be proof.

L.C.

 

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[L.C. BAKER]

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Makes me excited to read it, and I want to swallow it until words like. "CLAIMS TO HAVE BEEN" "CLAIMS TO BE" hit the gag reflex in me.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

“Uncle John” Trammel who was participating in a search for buried treasure in the Zanesville, Ohio area. Other members of the search team were given as Archie Miller, Mrs. Miller his wife, Lee Howk, Roscoe James, James Cooper, and Floyd Chaplin. John Trammel gave his age then (1949) as 109 years. The ex-slave “Charlie Smith” is reported as being 133 years old in 1976. Subtracting 1949 from 1976 yields 27. John Trammel 109 years old in 1949 plus 27 equals John Trammel 136 years old in 1976. Was John Trammel in other words the Charlie Smith who visited Montana Senator William Clark? John Trammel told The Zanesville Signal that he and Jesse James had buried a chest of gold sometime in the 1880s “after snatching it from a stagecoach which they held up north of Zanesville.” But were stage coaches still operating in Ohio in the 1880s?"

"Trammel claimed “as a newly-freed slave at the end of the Civil War, but on the run from the law, he had strayed into the James gang camp. Jesse James had forced him into his gang as a cook and unpaid servant and that he had stayed with the gang for an unspecified time.”

"Jesse James allegedly arranged to fake his death. But John Trammel, alias “the Black Cobra”, according to Schrader’s book, left a coded message about the general situation. Trammel got some wet bricks, and a friend helped him scratch some messages into them before they dried. One brick “contained an image of a Spanish dagger, the numerals 777, KGC, and JJ [Jesse James]…” Trammel reportedly buried the bricks in St. Joseph, Missouri, and later exclaimed, “Just wait ‘til they find them St. Joe bricks!”

 

[L.C. BAKER]

You may need these......

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

I agreed with your post all but this little bit because when a man has something that is new, unknown, and foreign to all known research, the same thing can be said. One should always keep an open mind to unique information and take it as a grain of salt until you want to know if it is true. At that point, you will have to do your own research to find the truth. If it is true, there will be proof.

L.C.

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I believe we are saying the same thing here, LC. The same thing would apply to something entirely new and unknown.

" Historians frequently include Anecdotal Evidence in their research, but always cite it as such. If corroborating evidence is found in Historical Records, it lends the Anecdotal Evidence more weight. If not, then it remains Anecdotal only, until such time as corroborating evidence may become available at a later date. Failure ta do so amounts ta publishing Supposition as Fact. "

I was not saying ye should discard anything that can't be corroborated elsewhere. Jest don't state Anecdotal evidence/Supposition as FACT until ye find the proof/Corroborating evidence yer alluding to. I'm all fer working theories.

 

[Kace]

My Vote Is To Allow DATED NEWSPAPERS Regarding Events and Characters Involved In The BB Stories Into This Thread. I think that newspaper article Kentuck posted was relevant due to the dates, characters and their different relationships claimed at that time that changed later in the BB.

After this thread finishes then we can do personal stories and opinions/theories and the letters. I do think those have a lot of value, but on this thread, it will get too confusing and convoluted I believe.

The earlier post I made on Trammell, I wished afterwards I hadn't posted it because there's No Way to back it up. I'm Sorry I posted it and I seriously doubt its factuality.

We've just got to stick to the BB, Official Records, Videos IF They Are About The BB, and DATED Newspapers From 1930-1952 Regarding The Characters In The BB On This Thread.

We All will have a lot to cuss and discuss after we are done with the books characters and events on This Thread.

Just My Thoughts...

Loved The Newspaper Article You Posted Kentuck. Especially the Date of the Paper and People Involved. Thanks For Posting It.

Due to the Unknown about Trammell...Assuming he was a Slave, and Assumming Trammell or Skates was his Slave Name and Assuming that was his Age...those schedules and tax records are only going to be found in whatever state county he was in and who he belonged to.

Maybe the Newspapers or Interviews will give more clues to his vital information. He might not of Ever been a slave or that age. It's stated in the BB who owned him, I can't find those records to confirm that or the plantation where he was supposedly born. We will be at that point soon in the BB.

Kace

 

[Kace]

“Uncle John” Trammel who was participating in a search for buried treasure in the Zanesville, Ohio area. Other members of the search team were given as Archie Miller, Mrs. Miller his wife, Lee Howk, Roscoe James, James Cooper, and Floyd Chaplin. John Trammel gave his age then (1949) as 109 years. The ex-slave “Charlie Smith” is reported as being 133 years old in 1976. Subtracting 1949 from 1976 yields 27. John Trammel 109 years old in 1949 plus 27 equals John Trammel 136 years old in 1976. Was John Trammel in other words the Charlie Smith who visited Montana Senator William Clark? John Trammel told The Zanesville Signal that he and Jesse James had buried a chest of gold sometime in the 1880s “after snatching it from a stagecoach which they held up north of Zanesville.” But were stage coaches still operating in Ohio in the 1880s?"

"Trammel claimed “as a newly-freed slave at the end of the Civil War, but on the run from the law, he had strayed into the James gang camp. Jesse James had forced him into his gang as a cook and unpaid servant and that he had stayed with the gang for an unspecified time.”

"Jesse James allegedly arranged to fake his death. But John Trammel, alias “the Black Cobra”, according to Schrader’s book, left a coded message about the general situation. Trammel got some wet bricks, and a friend helped him scratch some messages into them before they dried. One brick “contained an image of a Spanish dagger, the numerals 777, KGC, and JJ [Jesse James]…” Trammel reportedly buried the bricks in St. Joseph, Missouri, and later exclaimed, “Just wait ‘til they find them St. Joe bricks!”

And depending on which account you want to believe if any...'JJ3 or JWJ's GreatGrandson Found The Bricks or Some of Them. Has Anyone Seen Them and If So, a Dated Analysis of When the Bricks were Fired?

Kace

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

My Vote Is To Allow DATED NEWSPAPERS Regarding Events and Characters Involved In The BB Stories Into This Thread. I think that newspaper article Kentuck posted was relevant due to the dates, characters and their different relationships claimed at that time that changed later in the BB.

After this thread finishes then we can do personal stories and opinions/theories and the letters. I do think those have a lot of value, but on this thread, it will get too confusing and convoluted I believe.

The earlier post I made on Trammell, I wished afterwards I hadn't posted it because there's No Way to back it up. I'm Sorry I posted it and I seriously doubt its factuality.

We've just got to stick to the BB, Official Records, Videos IF They Are About The BB, and DATED Newspapers From 1930-1952 Regarding The Characters In The BB On This Thread.

We All will have a lot to cuss and discuss after we are done with the books characters and events on This Thread.

Just My Thoughts...

Loved The Newspaper Article You Posted Kentuck. Especially the Date of the Paper and People Involved. Thanks For Posting It.

Due to the Unknown about Trammell...Assuming he was a Slave, and Assumming Trammell or Skates was his Slave Name and Assuming that was his Age...those schedules and tax records are only going to be found in whatever state county he was in and who he belonged to.

Maybe the Newspapers or Interviews will give more clues to his vital information. He might not of Ever been a slave or that age. It's stated in the BB who owned him, I can't find those records to confirm that or the plantation where he was supposedly born. We will be at that point soon in the BB.

Kace

I apolergize fer skippin back ta Hunter, but wanted ta post tha entire page with dates and photos and couldn't edit my original post, so I'm posting it here.

Lots of contradicting statements to the BB on this page. If ye click tha pic twice ye should get full resolution.

 

[sdcfia]

Might want ta throw in your Cred's after your name, jest ta make it 'Official'

And I agree regarding newspaper interviews, as far as content.

But official printed dates time-stamping newspaper photographs are invaluable in establishing connections between people within a specific timeline.

"Creds?" That's a good one, Ol' K. Some folks with the best creds in the world are certainly not to be trusted.

Newspapers? There's always been fake news, especially when it's sensational. You're right, photos can be better than the text, as long as the identity of those in them can be verified. See? I can be as skeptical as the next guy. My specialty is trying to figure out why people believe the things they do. Human nature never changes.

By the way, I love the photo of those treasure hunters in Zanesville digging for loot in their trenchcoats and fedoras. Delicious. However, the set of photos does prove one thing, as you indicated. An elderly black man who claimed to be John Trammell was present at the soiree, indicating that this person was alive in 1949.

 

[sdcfia]

I believe we are saying the same thing here, LC. The same thing would apply to something entirely new and unknown.

" Historians frequently include Anecdotal Evidence in their research, but always cite it as such. If corroborating evidence is found in Historical Records, it lends the Anecdotal Evidence more weight. If not, then it remains Anecdotal only, until such time as corroborating evidence may become available at a later date. Failure ta do so amounts ta publishing Supposition as Fact. "

I was not saying ye should discard anything that can't be corroborated elsewhere. Jest don't state Anecdotal evidence/Supposition as FACT until ye find the proof/Corroborating evidence yer alluding to. I'm all fer working theories.

The unfortunate reality is that 99.9% of all individual human activity is undocumented, including nearly all individual anecdotes.

 

[Kace]

The unfortunate reality is that 99.9% of all individual human activity is undocumented, including nearly all individual anecdotes.

Luckily on this thread we are only using the BB, videos relevant to it, articles and records. The next thread will be everything else.

Kace

 

[Kace]

There's no time limit coming back to events or people so the Next Up is According to the BB:

Jesse BALLARD James

Dr Jesse HOWARD James

Dr SYLVESTER Franklin James aka JOHN NEWMAN EDWARDS.

Kace

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

Dalton/JJ and Howk/Jesse III's self proclaimed lineage.

The Patriarch being one George James from Scott Co., KY., alleged brother of the Rev. Robert Sallee James.

George fathered Jesse Woodson James (Dalton) and Sylvester Franklin (Frank) James.

Jesse Woodson James (Dalton) then had a son named Jesse Barnhill James....

... who in turn fathered Jesse Lee James III (Howk).


A nice package, if it weren't fiction. There is no record of this George James family in Scott Co., Kentucky, or anywhere else in Kentucky.

O'course Howk/Jesse III was kind enough ta set up his alibi right from the git go by stating tha reason you won't find George listed in tha Census was because " as the oldest son, he was off working and was not at home when the Census was taken ". Perhaps this was a family trait, not being home, as none of tha members of this George James family were EVER enumerated in ANY Census, ANYWHERE, ta my knowledge.

I still haven't figgered out how he managed ta justify the III in Jesse James III. In order fer that ta be true he woulda had ta have been tha son of Jesse,Jr. and Stella James, who never had a son.

Add ta that Howk/Jesse III's own explanation fer using tha name Orvus Lee Howk. After his grandfather, Jesse James (Dalton) returned from South America and became so wealthy, " young Jesse III was kidnapped at age 4 and held fer a large ransom ". Jesse (Dalton) paid tha ransom o'course, and ta prevent future attempts, then sent him ta live with relatives Mr. and Mrs. Obediah Howk of St. Louis, where he took tha name Orvus Howk.

Sounds legit ta me.


I was not surprised ta find exactly ZIP on Dr. Jesse Howard James either. I reckon he goes inta my Bigelow Effect file along with tha rest of 'em.

Maybe Y'all have had better luck?

Edit- I DID find something interestin in Missouri regarding the Houck name....but I'll save it fer the Speculation later.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Frank James...? Alexander Franklin "Frank" James (1/10/1843-2/18/1915)…?

 

[Kace]

Frank James...? Alexander Franklin "Frank" James (1/10/1843-2/18/1915)…?

ALEXANDER Franklin "Frank" James in Real Life is the one from Kearney, MO.

The BB however adds other Frank and Jesse James. I capitalize the part of the name that's different.

Above, I posted Dr SYLVESTER Franklin James aka John Edwards Newman in the BB.

The first page of this thread has the Kearney, MO James Family with descendants and dob and dod on most if not all.

The Dr SYLVESTER Franklin James character in the BB is where the rumor/confusion started that ALEXANDER Franklin James was a Doctor in the Rebel Army. No Doubt AFJ had Field Medic Training like Anyone In Combat but he was Not A Formally Educated Doctor.

Kace

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Still called "Doc", tho... as TODAY in combat; SPECIALISTS. I knew of two "Doc", one from WW2 & one from Vietnam.

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

Still called "Doc", tho... as TODAY in combat; SPECIALISTS. I knew of two "Doc", one from WW2 & one from Vietnam.

Are they in tha BB?

 

[Kace]

Still called "Doc", tho... as TODAY in combat; SPECIALISTS. I knew of two "Doc", one from WW2 & one from Vietnam.

All Combat soldiers have Field Medic Training....But there are Trained/Educated Medics or Doctors in the Armed Services.

ALEXANDER Franklin James was Not Formally Trained or Medically Educated anymore than any other Combat soldier.

I get what your saying about the guys you are talking about, they are Medical Specialists to Handle Injuries and Wounds and sometimes they are Paramedics, EMT's or Doctors...He wasn't that. Those EMT's/Dr's are Not Combat Soldiers.

Kace

 

[Kace]

Dalton/JJ and Howk/Jesse III's self proclaimed lineage.

The Patriarch being one George James from Scott Co., KY., alleged brother of the Rev. Robert Sallee James.

George fathered Jesse Woodson James (Dalton) and Sylvester Franklin (Frank) James.

Jesse Woodson James (Dalton) then had a son named Jesse Barnhill James....

... who in turn fathered Jesse Lee James III (Howk).


A nice package, if it weren't fiction. There is no record of this George James family in Scott Co., Kentucky, or anywhere else in Kentucky.

O'course Howk/Jesse III was kind enough ta set up his alibi right from the git go by stating tha reason you won't find George listed in tha Census was because " as the oldest son, he was off working and was not at home when the Census was taken ". Perhaps this was a family trait, not being home, as none of tha members of this George James family were EVER enumerated in ANY Census, ANYWHERE, ta my knowledge.

I still haven't figgered out how he managed ta justify the III in Jesse James III. In order fer that ta be true he woulda had ta have been tha son of Jesse,Jr. and Stella James, who never had a son.

Add ta that Howk/Jesse III's own explanation fer using tha name Orvus Lee Howk. After his grandfather, Jesse James (Dalton) returned from South America and became so wealthy, " young Jesse III was kidnapped at age 4 and held fer a large ransom ". Jesse (Dalton) paid tha ransom o'course, and ta prevent future attempts, then sent him ta live with relatives Mr. and Mrs. Obediah Howk of St. Louis, where he took tha name Orvus Howk.

Sounds legit ta me.


I was not surprised ta find exactly ZIP on Dr. Jesse Howard James either. I reckon he goes inta my Bigelow Effect file along with tha rest of 'em.

Maybe Y'all have had better luck?

Edit- I DID find something interestin in Missouri regarding the Houck name....but I'll save it fer the Speculation later.

I've never been able to confirm the Capt. George S. James of Fort Sumpter fame or his supposed wife Mollie Dalton in JJ3's ancestry.

I'm almost exactly where you are in looking through records.

In court records Stella James, JWJ Jr's wife said the same thing you did, 'If there was a JJ3, he would of been mine and we only had daughters...No Sons. That was during the Turilli trial.

Kace

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

I reckon I left out Jesse Ballard James.

Depending on which one yer referrin to, it would be either Roscoe James' Father or his Great Grandfather.

Roscoe is pictured with Howk and the Miller's in my previous posts pertainin ta tha Zanesville debacle, where he is professing ta be a nephew of tha outlaw Jesse James, and Howk is claiming ta be a Private Investigator from Van Nuys, Ca.

Jesse Ballard James (Mo.) 1803-1861
William M. James (Mo) 1831-1915
Jesse Ballard James (Ar.) 1860-1904
Roscoe James (Ar.) 1886-1963