Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Black Book Discussion

[L.C. BAKER]

I hung up the gaffs in the 90s, but I was a cockfighter (handler) in another lifetime at Blackberry, Kentucky and Sallisaw, Oklahoma. Both were legal states to fight in at the time.

 

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[J.H.Crenshaw]

Show em iff'n you got em.......


Got an old 5 dollar bill (CSA); I'm in... heh!



View attachment 1665956 L.C.

 

[Kace]

I hung up the gaffs in the 90s, but I was a cockfighter (handler) in another lifetime at Blackberry, Kentucky and Sallisaw, Oklahoma. Both were legal states to fight in at the time.

View attachment 1665977

WHAT!! Legal or Not Its No Different Than Dog Fights! It's Sick and Sad! Those gaffs used in cock fights do a lot of painful damage as you well know.

I'm glad you're not doing That anymore! You'd be missing a co.. chicken before year end!lol!

I can't imagine that happening to Ru if he hadn't been rescued.

These aren't even nearly as bad some of the sword looking ones I've seen.



Kace

 

[sdcfia]

Charlie Bigelow and John Trammell are perfect examples of No Author even questioning their existence as Real People involved in JWJ's life because those characters in the story have been repeated so much.

Here's a Trammell story you probably haven't heard. In 2004, my digging partner George and I were invited over to Ross Cherry's house in Silver City to talk about treasure hunting. It's the first time we'd met Ross and had no idea what to expect.

Ross was waiting for us back in the ‘war room’ — his office/den at the back of the house. It was as cluttered as any space I’d seen, with stacks of books, folders, tools, maps, boxes of photos and much more stacked on every flat surface, including the floor. Ross was on the phone when we peeked in the door, but he waved us in as he was saying, “They’re here. Call me back in an hour.” He hung up and greeted us. “Hi boys. Come on in and sit down. Just move that stuff off the chairs and put it on the floor.” Ross (1921-2004), a welder and pipe fitter by trade, but had been crippled twenty years earlier by a chiropractor. He was raised in Clovis, New Mexico, and was a life-long treasure hunter, learning from his father Ross Sr. (1886-1944, b. Lawrence County MO). “We hunted outlaw money,” he said, “There was lots of it all over Oklahoma and Texas. New Mexico too. Me and my dad, we used ESP and dowsing quite a bit.”

George and I had many unsuccessful experiences with dowsers over the years. “Did you ever have much luck?” asked George.

Ross opened the middle desk drawer and pulled out a .38-special revolver, setting it down within easy reach. Next, he opened one of the deep desk drawers, and with both hands hoisted a crude brick-shaped mass out and placed it in front of us. “You can handle it but don’t take no pictures,” he said. It was a glob of melted gold five or six inches long, three or four inches wide and a couple of inches thick. It weighed about twenty pounds. “It’s outlaw money,” he said. “Melted down double eagles. Found it buried on a fence line in an old corral.” Ten minutes after walking in the door, we had the feel of 300 ounces of gold in our hands.

The conversation got lively and an hour after we’d arrived, the phone rang. Ross answered and said, “It’s okay. Thanks for calling back.” He hung up the phone without another word and put the gold bar back in the drawer. The revolver remained on the desk.

Based on what we'd seen so far, I asked Ross if he knew anything about the James Gang. "Well, sure. I've been around it all my life,” he said. “They were all Masons you know, and the smartest people you can imagine. They hid stuff in geometric patterns, then put dots and lines on leather maps. I've seen some of those maps - they'rereal complicated. And they were secretive. They took a blood oath back when a man's word meant something.

“Heck, at one time Jesse spent a lot of time right here in Silver City,” he said. “Most people around here think you’re lying but it’s true. I’ll bet you didn’t know that Jesse was a silent partner with the owners of the Southern Hotel downtown, did you? That’s where he stayed when he was in town.

“Here, let me show you one of Jesse’s guns. Those guys had lots of guns in those days, so it’s not that big a deal. Sometimes they’d carry five or six at a time. My dad’s buddy in Texas gave it to him. He knew Jesse pretty well and got it from him in the 1930’s. Jesse and his people were still plenty busy then. Most folks thought he was killed in Missouri, but that was just a trick.” The revolver Ross handed me was a .38 caliber with no markings other than ‘Texas Rangers’ and a hallmark stamped into the barrel. “My dad passed it on to me. It shoots real straight,” Ross said.



Ross continued, "Why, I even met one of Jesse's best men. My dad brought him to the house when I was still young - must have been the late '30's or early '40's. Believe it or not, he was a black man and one of the nicest men I've ever met in my life. Dad was working with him to locate a big cache down by Carlsbad. His name was John Trammell. When they got to where Dad was looking, John told Dad it wasn't the place he remembered."

Ross knew of JF Dalton but had never heard of the BB. I was able to spend some quality time with him in 2004 before he passed on late in the year. We didn't discuss JJ any more - he had plenty to share on other subjects.

 

[mdog]

That’s a great story, Sdc.

 

[Kace]

Here's a Trammell story you probably haven't heard. In 2004, my digging partner George and I were invited over to Ross Cherry's house in Silver City to talk about treasure hunting. It's the first time we'd met Ross and had no idea what to expect.

Ross was waiting for us back in the ‘war room’ — his office/den at the back of the house. It was as cluttered as any space I’d seen, with stacks of books, folders, tools, maps, boxes of photos and much more stacked on every flat surface, including the floor. Ross was on the phone when we peeked in the door, but he waved us in as he was saying, “They’re here. Call me back in an hour.” He hung up and greeted us. “Hi boys. Come on in and sit down. Just move that stuff off the chairs and put it on the floor.” Ross (1921-2004), a welder and pipe fitter by trade, but had been crippled twenty years earlier by a chiropractor. He was raised in Clovis, New Mexico, and was a life-long treasure hunter, learning from his father Ross Sr. (1886-1944, b. Lawrence County MO). “We hunted outlaw money,” he said, “There was lots of it all over Oklahoma and Texas. New Mexico too. Me and my dad, we used ESP and dowsing quite a bit.”

George and I had many unsuccessful experiences with dowsers over the years. “Did you ever have much luck?” asked George.

Ross opened the middle desk drawer and pulled out a .38-special revolver, setting it down within easy reach. Next, he opened one of the deep desk drawers, and with both hands hoisted a crude brick-shaped mass out and placed it in front of us. “You can handle it but don’t take no pictures,” he said. It was a glob of melted gold five or six inches long, three or four inches wide and a couple of inches thick. It weighed about twenty pounds. “It’s outlaw money,” he said. “Melted down double eagles. Found it buried on a fence line in an old corral.” Ten minutes after walking in the door, we had the feel of 300 ounces of gold in our hands.

The conversation got lively and an hour after we’d arrived, the phone rang. Ross answered and said, “It’s okay. Thanks for calling back.” He hung up the phone without another word and put the gold bar back in the drawer. The revolver remained on the desk.

Based on what we'd seen so far, I asked Ross if he knew anything about the James Gang. "Well, sure. I've been around it all my life,” he said. “They were all Masons you know, and the smartest people you can imagine. They hid stuff in geometric patterns, then put dots and lines on leather maps. I've seen some of those maps - they'rereal complicated. And they were secretive. They took a blood oath back when a man's word meant something.

“Heck, at one time Jesse spent a lot of time right here in Silver City,” he said. “Most people around here think you’re lying but it’s true. I’ll bet you didn’t know that Jesse was a silent partner with the owners of the Southern Hotel downtown, did you? That’s where he stayed when he was in town.

“Here, let me show you one of Jesse’s guns. Those guys had lots of guns in those days, so it’s not that big a deal. Sometimes they’d carry five or six at a time. My dad’s buddy in Texas gave it to him. He knew Jesse pretty well and got it from him in the 1930’s. Jesse and his people were still plenty busy then. Most folks thought he was killed in Missouri, but that was just a trick.” The revolver Ross handed me was a .38 caliber with no markings other than ‘Texas Rangers’ and a hallmark stamped into the barrel. “My dad passed it on to me. It shoots real straight,” Ross said.

View attachment 1666074

Ross continued, "Why, I even met one of Jesse's best men. My dad brought him to the house when I was still young - must have been the late '30's or early '40's. Believe it or not, he was a black man and one of the nicest men I've ever met in my life. Dad was working with him to locate a big cache down by Carlsbad. His name was John Trammell. When they got to where Dad was looking, John told Dad it wasn't the place he remembered."

Ross knew of JF Dalton but had never heard of the BB. I was able to spend some quality time with him in 2004 before he passed on late in the year. We didn't discuss JJ any more - he had plenty to share on other subjects.

View attachment 1666085

Awesome Story SD!

Thanks For Sharing It!

Kace

 

[L.C. BAKER]

WHAT!! Legal or Not Its No Different Than Dog Fights! It's Sick and Sad! Those gaffs used in cock fights do a lot of painful damage as you well know.

I'm glad you're not doing That anymore! You'd be missing a co.. chicken before year end!lol!

I can't imagine that happening to Ru if he hadn't been rescued.

These aren't even nearly as bad some of the sword looking ones I've seen.

View attachment 1666058

Kace

NOT the same as dogs. I love my dogs and would lay my life on the line for them, I EAT chickens...... Besides that, you should be mad at TYSON. They kill them by the thousands like Hitler. At least I trained and ARMED my chickens to fight for their lives one on one! I have grown softer with age through the years and I lost the will to kill anything that doesn't attack me first.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Have you read the full autopsy report. To me it convinced me that JJ had been shot by Bob Ford. JJ even had the bullet he carried from being shot in the Civil War. There were two slugs with two different calibers. And both matched what JJ had been shot with. There was something else found, I can not remember what but JJ was wearing it in one of his photos and it was in the grave also.

WHICH grave...?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Yes, I've read it and the full inquest.

I know it makes sense, I guess I just like the idea of him going out in a hail of bullets and not shot in the back in his own home! lol!

Kace

Wasn't it the back of his head...?

 

[mdog]

Sounds like Sdcfia offers a good research lead. The dad was familiar with JJ, during the 30’s or 40’s. He was searching for a James gang cach, with Trammel. Maybe confirm JJ was alive in the 30’s.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

As John Frank Dalton...?

 

[Kace]

Wasn't it the back of his head...?

Yes...I'll change that to 'from behind' to avoid confusion. I thought the back included the head.

Kace

 

[Kace]

WHICH grave...?

Where you said you don't give a Rats Ass about.....Was there another JWJ exhumation in 1978?

In case Autopsy/Inquest comes up again regarding JWJ...There's only been One done and that was in 1882.

There was DNA testing done in 1995. Not an autopsy.

Kace

 

[Kace]

NOT the same as dogs. I love my dogs and would lay my life on the line for them, I EAT chickens...... Besides that, you should be mad at TYSON. They kill them by the thousands like Hitler. At least I trained and ARMED my chickens to fight for their lives one on one! I have grown softer with age through the years and I lost the will to kill anything that doesn't attack me first.

I just really do not like seeing Any Animal suffer...I've never liked blood sports and I used to love Rodeo's until I saw a horse get his neck/back broken while bucking...now, I'll go but it's just not the same after seeing that. I hate dog fighting and unethical hunting too.

I'm glad you've grown softer in age!

Kace

 

[sdcfia]

Sounds like Sdcfia offers a good research lead. The dad was familiar with JJ, during the 30’s or 40’s. He was searching for a James gang cach, with Trammel. Maybe confirm JJ was alive in the 30’s.

It doesn't prove anything, but I know that Ross believed JJ was alive in the 20th century, based on things he seemed to consider common knowledge. I'd also heard other allegations about JJ in SW NM from different sources - Hillsboro, Carlisle Mining District. I was interested in pursuing all of that topic, plus more about his dad (who spent the first part of his life in SW MO and OK), where his dad got his outlaw loot info, how his dad came to know Trammell, etc.

Ross was a wealth of information - he had a metal garden storage shed full of all kinds of stuff. I thought I was going to learn lots from him. After the first meeting, I spent as much time with him as possible - looking at his local projects, verifying his impressive dowsing talents, etc. Then after a month or two after our first meeting, he suddenly passed away.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Where you said you don't give a Rats Ass about.....Was there another JWJ exhumation in 1978?

In case Autopsy/Inquest comes up again regarding JWJ...There's only been One done and that was in 1882.

Kace

In Texas, I think...

 

[franklin]

Where you said you don't give a Rats Ass about.....Was there another JWJ exhumation in 1978?

In case Autopsy/Inquest comes up again regarding JWJ...There's only been One done and that was in 1882.

Kace

Is that "1882" date correct? They had a newer DNA and exhumation of JJ's Grave in recent years. That is the one I was referring to?

 

[Kace]

In Texas, I think...

I believe you're thinking of the BUD Hardcastle fiasco that happened in 2000 in Granbury, Texas when he attempted to exhume Dalton for DNA testing and dug up the wrong guy. The Judge wouldn't let him dig again after the lies were exposed.

Dalton didn't have an autopsy done on him when he died. Just a conflicting visual examination of his body from several people...

The BDD family...also in Texas never could get an exhumation approved on Courtney.

I thought franklin was talking about the autopsy/inquest done shortly after the St Joe shooting in 1882 and I responded about the second time JWJ was exhumed which was in 1978 when I was there.

Kace

 

[Kace]

Is that "1882" date correct? They had a newer DNA and exhumation of JJ's Grave in recent years. That is the one I was referring to?

Both are right.

1882 was the autopsy/inquest after the St Joe Shooting. He was buried.

1902- Exhumed and Reinterred

1978- Exhumed and Reinterred

1995- Exhumed, DNA Testing and Reinterred.

Sorry, I thought you meant the original one.

Kace

 

[L.C. BAKER]

NOT the same as dogs. I love my dogs and would lay my life on the line for them, I EAT chickens...... Besides that, you should be mad at TYSON. They kill them by the thousands like Hitler. At least I trained and ARMED my chickens to fight for their lives one on one! I have grown softer with age through the years and I lost the will to kill anything that doesn't attack me first.

I just really do not like seeing Any Animal suffer...I've never liked blood sports and I used to love Rodeo's until I saw a horse get his neck/back broken while bucking...now, I'll go but it's just not the same after seeing that. I hate dog fighting and unethical hunting too.

I'm glad you've grown softer in age!

Kace

I used to be young and dumb, but now I am just...........older.