Jesse James Treasures: Do They Likely Still Exist?

[45th_Johnny]

Here is what I have on the James Boys from my book:

 

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[Kace]

Kace, yes Tintypes.

If anyone is not aware, the DNA used to identify JWJ, was mitochondrial DNA. The DNA from JWJ's mother, which was shared with her mother and her sisters. This included the Dalton's and others. This DNA would probably not be found in any of his sons, but could have been found in a daughter.

Just finished looking at some Civil War tintypes. The easiest way to tell is the buttons are on the wrong side of the jackets, in the reversed images.

Thanks 45...I thought that's what you meant but didn't wanna assume!

As far as the mtDNA Testing of JWJ...Outlaw, MO. In 1995, JWJ's DNA was compared to his Sister Susan's gGrandson and ggGrandson. They were proven to be Direct Descendants of JWJ...Outlaw.

As you probably know, both the Courtney and Dalton camps challenged this. Both camps Also claimed to be Direct Descendants of JWJ..Outlaw.

BDD at first claimed that Frank and Jesse had different fathers, she then changed that. The Dalton camp still claimed this, but put a twist on it questioning the morals of Susan James Daughter meaning they questioned who was the father of her children. However Both Camps wanted to use the Same DNA for testing as used in Missouri. ??

There have been two DNA tests regarding JLC and his brother Theodore's descendants. They Both had the same parents. One DNA test was not made public by BDD who passed in 2015 I think. Her survivors have not made it public either.

The second DNA test was done by Other Courtney/Haun relatives comparing 3 separate male Descendants of Theodore using the 'Y' sequence to determine male Paternal ancestry and they tested positive as having the same Paternal Ancestor which would of been JLC and Theodore's Father. Female Descendants Also submitted their mtDNA for comparison to JLC and Theodore's Mother and tested positive as well for having the same Maternal Ancestor.

As far as checking Zerelda Cole James sisters...She had none. She had one brother who committed suicide in 1893 I think..His name was Jesse Cole Lindsay.

Zerelda's Mother was Sarah Lindsay Cole. Zerelda was from Woodford County, Kentucky.

Robert Sallee James...Frank, Robert, Jesse and Susan's Father...His Mother was Mary 'Polly' Poor. Robert was from Logan County, Kentucky.

Kace

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Well, NOT sure what all this DNA testing is gonna do; NOT interested in descendants. Wanted to see MORE "pics" of JJ, JFD, & JMJ as Outlaws. IF... JMJ & wife were REALLY at the house in 1882, and JMJ was ALSO Tom Howard... Tom Howard & wife were the names given out as the occupants. Do we have "pics" of Tom Howard...? COULD BE that Jesse's cousin, Jeremiah Mason James (JMJ) was murdered (Tom Howard was HATED by many of JJ's gang). Then the REAL Jesse James became his cousin, Jeremiah Mason James, living out the REST of his life as a FARMER... sounds CONFUSING! Just an old KGC "trick"... gonna be a SLEEPLESS night!

 

[Kace]

Well, NOT sure what all this DNA testing is gonna do; NOT interested in descendants. Wanted to see MORE "pics" of JJ, JFD, & JMJ as Outlaws. IF... JMJ & wife were REALLY at the house in 1882, and JMJ was ALSO Tom Howard... Tom Howard & wife were the names given out as the occupants. Do we have "pics" of Tom Howard...? COULD BE that Jesse's cousin, Jeremiah Mason James (JMJ) was murdered (Tom Howard was HATED by many of JJ's gang). Then the REAL Jesse James became his cousin, Jeremiah Mason James, living out the REST of his life as a FARMER... sounds CONFUSING! Just an old KGC "trick"... gonna be a SLEEPLESS night!

HA! I hear ya on thinking about this stuff.

The descendants do prove that their ancestors were Not JWJ...Outlaw.

Ill look for pics of JMJ and Tom Howard.

I can't post pics here, when I get back.. Tuesday I'll start posting them. It takes forever at the farm posting pics.

If we can find information on Jeremiah M. James, Thomas Howard and Ben Woodson other than aliases, then we can trace them.

In 1880, JWJ and AFJ were living in Davidson County, Tennessee under the names Tom Howard and Ben Woodson respectively. They did have their families with them. NO JMJ with them then.

 

[Kace]

I did find photos and information on Jeremiah James...Farmer. I'll post them when I get back...WOW...This guy resembles JWJ..Outlaw, So Much!!

I Have Not Found Thomas Howard Yet...I'm still looking...There is a Thomas Howard that lived in St Joe before AND after the shooting. I'm not sure on his age yet, still waiting, he was an adult.

I did find a letter from JWJ aka Thomas Howard though and it's been confirmed to be JWJ..Outlaw's handwriting. It's also from St. Joseph, MO. I'll post that too when I get back to civilization!!

Ben Woodson and Frank James are one in the same...No Doubt.

Have any of you guys ever found a grave or headstone either in a public cemetery or on private property that seems way out of place by the name and markings on it?

Kace

 

[Rebel - KGC]

No tombstone. "Clearing up" on JMJ/Tom Howard, etc. Tom Howard/the REAL Jeremiah Mason James was the one murdered in 1882. TH/JMJ was trying to be "bigger" than JJ (steal the "Spot-Light"), so Bob Ford killed him, hoping to get the BIG reward ($$$$$$$$). More R & I to do... BTW, Frank James used "James Ed Warren" as his name when he & his wife lived here in Lynchburg, Va. in 1882 (when JJ was "murdered"... NOT!). Lynchburg Sheriff even knew who FJ was... not a problem, good citizen. FJ was getting TIRED of being "on the run"...

 

[Kace]

No tombstone. "Clearing up" on JMJ/Tom Howard, etc. Tom Howard/the REAL Jeremiah Mason James was the one murdered in 1882. TH/JMJ was trying to be "bigger" than JJ (steal the "Spot-Light"), so Bob Ford killed him, hoping to get the BIG reward ($$$$$$$$). More R & I to do... BTW, Frank James used "James Ed Warren" as his name when he & his wife lived here in Lynchburg, Va. in 1882 (when JJ was "murdered"... NOT!). Lynchburg Sheriff even knew who FJ was... not a problem, good citizen. FJ was getting TIRED of being "on the run"...

Ok, Thanks Reb...That makes sense on "James Ed Warren" (interesting initials), so by that, was HE the one referred to as 'JEW' or 'The Jew'?? That name... I knew sounded familiar and if I remember right franklin said the same thing early on regarding that name and location.

I did find that later in 1880, JWJ and FJ left Davidson County, TN and Both went to the Danville area. Apparently for a short amount of time. They split up and FJ went to Lynchburg.

**Below is Alleged From Two Independent Individual Sources....I haven't tried to get a 3rd yet.

JWJ ended up in Kansas City and then in Excelsior Springs MO (North of KCMO) for a short amount of time as Howard...

(Fact:In 1880 The Springs had been discovered to have Healing Powers...Much like their old Haunt of Montague Springs,MO where the Youngers had family and both sets of brothers stayed frequently...Montague Springs is right where Chalk Level and Roscoe are located and where John Younger was Killed).. SWMO

**We need to verify this next part too** It is Alleged.

At some point, someone at different times claiming to be Cousins..JR and/or Jeremiah James from KY show up for a short period of time at the James Farm. Not long after this Tom Howard shows up in St Joseph and rents a home on Lafayette St.

I'll try and verify the above. I'll also add some interesting information on Danville being an important stop for both of them and why AFJ was wanting JWJ to get to Excelsior Springs right after that for business ventures.

Is Danville Close to Reb and franklin?

Kace

 

[Rebel - KGC]

LOL! Danville is in franklin's sideyard; 2 counties SOUTH of me in L'burg, Va. FJ as James E. Warren... JEW; yep! The family had "Jewish tendencies" from MOMMA James... BUT! As far as I know, the boys (JJ & FJ) ignored such; STILL robbed & killed on Saturdays (Jewish Holy Day)... heh!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

NOW! I would love to see something on Jeremiah MASON James post-1882; a farmer with a MISSING digit...? MASON... hmmm; JJ was indicated as a 32nd degree SR Mason & 2nd Degree KGC (on State level) & Comptroller of BIG Knights of the Golden Circle $$$$$$$$$$$! Doing more R & I on this, tho.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

GREAT info in Dr. Roy W. Roush's (Ph.D.) book, JESSE JAMES & LOST TREASURES of the KNIGHTS OF THE GOLDEN CIRCLE... NICE! GREAT info & "Pics"!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

I knew Frank James was a MASON; didn't know about JJ.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

GREAT info in Dr. Roy W. Roush's (Ph.D.) book, JESSE JAMES & LOST TREASURES of the KNIGHTS OF THE GOLDEN CIRCLE... NICE! GREAT info & "Pics"!

I think that "Doc Roy" believed that JFD was JJ... HOWEVER! Several "pics" indicate full left fingers (long & slender) on left hand... NO missing digit! (LEFT middle finger). SO...!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

I am "ruling out" JFD as JJ... HOWEVER! JFD as a "Body Double" for JJ, well... he knew TOO much! I DID enjoy the BLACK BOOK up to a point, tho... got me into KGC & JJ and gangs. Local "connections" is a WOWSTER!

 

[ECS]

I am "ruling out" JFD as JJ...

Was JFD rally James gang member Bud Dalton?

 

[Kace]

I am "ruling out" JFD as JJ... HOWEVER! JFD as a "Body Double" for JJ, well... he knew TOO much! I DID enjoy the BLACK BOOK up to a point, tho... got me into KGC & JJ and gangs. Local "connections" is a WOWSTER!

When I get home My Copy of the BLACK BOOK Should be there..excited to get it!!

Reb...I'm glad you brought up JFD...I Agree 100 percent..I Like the Local History and Claims too. I've had great help these last few days and am learning more about my neck o the woods.

I really have tried Very Hard to confirm JFD to be JWJ..I wanted to believe that too. I know my research and posts on JFD have not been popular with some folks and believe me...if there was Any Truth to that claim I would of said that first and stopped.

I decided to act like I had never heard of him before. I made myself Ignore Every Single Scam Artist that was involved in his life and just researched Him. I even ignored what my own family had said about him when they were at Meremac in '48 and '49. Grandparents in '48 and Parents in '49. I ignored what I Saw in '71-'72 that made No Sense to me, even being that young when I made my Dad stop there finally...actually my Mom made him stop so I would shut up about going to Jesse James Hideout...I still remember what he said when we parked after telling the parking lot staff 'Don't Put That Damn Bumper Sticker On My Car"...He said to my Mom that he couldn't believe this Carnival Side Show was still around. lol...It still is.

With the type of work I do professionally I have access to many, many databases that contain directories, records, photographs and files from the past to present. For every documented claim, there is either a very well documented counter claim OR a Very Well Documented Confirmation of the Claim. Both can be researched. I Just Cannot Twist The Facts To Match the Stories Concerning JFD. Can't Be Done.

The Databases Now are Nothing Like they used to be...Even in the last 5-10-15 years there is So Much More Detailed Information Available...Facial Recognition is here and a great tool. I get paid to do this stuff and track people...I Have to be thorough...I'm not getting paid for this, but I still want to be thorough because we are trying to trace Jesse James..Outlaw to see where he was and had been. There are serious JJ, KGC,CSA Treasure and History Hunters out there and Kids. Hopefully US wading through all the Horse Ships will save even one person the trouble of this topic.

I also work with Innocence Projects and that isn't always someone current or even alive. I found out by Accident that Two of my gUncles were in Leavenworth because they were Moonshiners. I was tracking someone else when that happened and I printed all of the information out and showed it to my Grandmother and asked why That tidbit was never mentioned
when I was doing our genealogy...I was told they went back to Virginia and were 'working with family' during that time. Part of that was true.. I just wasn't told the Rest of The Story...lol!

Reputable Writers of magazines and books back then used what access and information they could and were given during those times and I sure am not going to fault them for that. Nowadays We Can Research Their Sources...Couldn't do that then. Questionable Writers just made stuff up that was more exciting based on the high points of what Reputable Writers Printed. Sounded Factual And More Indepth.

But later what information JFD was fed was Publicly Available Sensationalized Information. He didn't know Anything Personal about JWJ..Outlaw. Not Even JWJ's Boot Size... He was off by 3-5.5 sizes depending on when he was asked. JFD made good guesses but JWJ had extraordinarily small feet for a man his height...he wore a size 7.5 boot which were authenticated and twice entered into evidence in court and once a pair of his boots were produced at an appearance by JFD, by his Daughter in Law disputing his claims. During one of the Meremac/Turilli/JFD Fraud Lawsuit Cases the Judge asked JFD to put on those boots..His foot wouldn't even clear the boot shaft. One reason they lost the lawsuit. He didn't know Franks Full Name or Even Who HE/JWJ was named after. Plus many other personal things that you just wouldn't forget.

I did attack JFD for scamming people and it wasn't right for him to do it. He was hardly alone though. He knew, as others did that there wasn't a way to disprove his claims very easy in smaller towns...He eventually would get found out and move to another smaller area and start over again. There were Many people who were confidence men...Like there are today. A lot of them today are Cyber Criminals, Phone Scammers or they pray on the elderly in person saying they need home repairs badly and end up either taking their life savings or the deed to their home or charging 5x the cost.

I don't think JFD had Any Idea what he got into with Meremac etal and then Orvus Lee Howk. JFD was a minor league imposter and they were Major League Scammers. Actually I feel bad for his final months, he was used horribly bad for others gain and is Still Being Used to this day for others to profit.

All that aside...

I agree with Reb that he could of been a stand in and 'maybe' even a distant relative of JWJ..Outlaw. The missing part of the left middle finger is something that impostors couldn't really get right. It's too documented. Even the most determined imposter isn't going to cut his own finger halfway off before seeing how profitable his scam is going to be. None have come forward so far.

ECS... 'It's Possible' he used the name Bud Dalton around JWJ etal...he sure couldn't of used the name J. Frank Dalton with that crowd. They Knew. Nor would they have wanted him to be posing as anyone famous. They Hid Their Own Names and John and Frank Dalton were well known names too. Also, many sources document that the 'gang' wasn't always made up of the same guys.

It 'Could of Been JFD' aka Bud Dalton of Ouachita Mountains Brass Bucket Fame. That was 1876ish I think. He was in Oklahoma and Texas a lot. I know he wasn't in Missouri, Tennessee or Virginia in the 1880's and James' were.

It's kinda curious that if JFD did partake in that robbery, why was he so destitute always...The etched contract on the bucket says it belongs to all who sign. Maybe I'm wrong but to me it would mean that each guy who signed was entitled to
1/12th of the total bank. If someone died then others would get part of their share if it wasn't going to the deceased's family.

The James Family, including JWJ himself profited in many ways by keeping JWJ..Outlaw dead. Organizations JWJ belonged to profited by keeping him dead. His wife was happy to not have to move around and hide and he needed to be dead for that.

JWJ could do a lot of things for big money staying dead. He knew his name was a Brand that was valuable...It still is. His mother made money never leaving the farm, his brother made money touring, even the Ford brothers profited by claiming to have killed him. All of that was out in the open. The bigger payoff would have been the organizations he belonged to that were Not out in the open.

JF Dalton profited by keeping JWJ alive and getting paid to tell stories. Albeit, not much compared to JWJ..Outlaw.

And That went against JWJ's immediate family that were still living including his wife,children and grandchildren.

Kace

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Was JFD rally James gang member Bud Dalton?

I think so... NOT certain, tho.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Well, Doc Roy has THREE "pics" of the brass kettle with "etched names" in his book, JESSE JAMES and LOST TREASURES of the KNIGHTS OF THE GOLDEN CIRCLE; JFD is holding it. (Pg 71-73). JFD has FULL fingers of left hand... AND! Joe Hunter found it! INTERESTING!

 

[Kace]

NOW! I would love to see something on Jeremiah MASON James post-1882; a farmer with a MISSING digit...? MASON... hmmm; JJ was indicated as a 32nd degree SR Mason & 2nd Degree KGC (on State level) & Comptroller of BIG Knights of the Golden Circle $$$$$$$$$$$! Doing more R & I on this, tho.

Hey Reb or Whoever Is Savvy in Masonic Levels....And KGC Ranks

This is from a long ago memory so I could very well be wrong but it would be nice to have the correct information here.

Is:

A 32nd° Scottish Mason the same as a 3rd° Mason which is a Master Mason? Basically the Highest Degree of the Masons?

A 33rd° Scottish Rite Mason is an Honor Bestowed on a 32nd° Mason By Lodge Brothers and allows the Master Mason to go into other areas of Masons?

A 33rd° Scottish Rite Mason sits At The Head of the Masonic Supreme Council and Only Gets There When Another 33rd° Dies?

Is there any difference in Scottish Rite and Southern Jurisdiction Freemasonry?

You mentioned Jesse James was a 2nd° KGC (State Level)... What Level Is That and What does that mean? How high do KGC levels go?

I've got him listed as Comptroller as well of the KGC. I thought that meant he would of been on the Council, Holding that position. Am I wrong?

I'm on the JEW and Joseph Vaughn Trail...I'll put that on another post.

I stayed down here another nite, maybe two...My amazing guide is available longer and it's storming harder at home than it is here. Might as well learn some more stuff!!

Thanks,
Kace

 

[Kace]

I've looked and cannot find anything suggesting Zerelda Cole James was Jewish in any way. She was raised Catholic, went to Catholic School and was even going into Convent Education when she met Robert Sallee James at a Baptist Revival.

Robert went on to be an Ordained Baptist Preacher, founded Two Baptist Churches in Clay County, MO and then went missing and supposedly died while in CA while with members of his church Mining for Gold. JWJ was 3-4yrs old. He supposedly was going to Convert to the Methodist Religion and become a Methodist Minister when he returned. A brother of his was a Methodist minister.

There are stories of FJ running into his father during the war, but personally I think that's false. His church members all told the same story of how and where he died, making Zerelda a widow and able to remarry twice. She Buried 3 Husbands! yikes!

Frank and Jesse were active in the Baptist Church...I think the JEW nickname came from something else.

Robert and Zerelda were English and Scots-Irish, Slave owners and Southern Cause Supporters.

I've yet to know of a Scots-Irish Southern Jewish person. That means nothing though and Anything is Possible...

But, to be Truely Jewish, it's from the Maternal Side. This is what Originally was True Orthodox Jewish..
However in the times we live in now Anyone can be Anything..Even Jewish. I don't think it was that way in the 1800's though.

Ex: If a Christian Man has children with a Jewish Woman...even if she has converted to Christianity, the children are Jewish by birth. Doesn't matter if they are members in good standing with a Christian religion/church.

That topic is way too much for my brain to process...I got stuck a long time ago on if Jewish was a Race or a Religion..

Anyway, I'm certain that Zerelda was not Jewish, Nor was Robert. But...

Then, I thought of the name Reuben Samuel...Stepfather to Frank and Jesse....Bingo!

He was a Jewish Doctor. Evidently that fact was kept from Frank and Jesse and the community...He was well regarded and respected as a person and a Dr by everyone who knew him. I can't find anything negative about him. Zerelda and Rueben are buried in Mt Olivet Cemetery, which if it's affiliated with every other Mt Olivet Cemetery around here its Catholic.

Now, they were from North of the Missouri River (that's how you give locations here..North-South of the River...) Not Really Far North, MO, but they had Southern Views and South of the river it was pretty much a given where you stood on the Civil War...Confederate. Most of their neighbors were Union. I grew up 30ish minutes or so South of there by highway and that area was overwhelmingly Confederate. The farther South, SE or SW you go..Confederate.

However, Dr Samuel wasn't practicing Judaism and JJ and FJ still went primarily to the Baptist Church and occasionally to a Catholic Parish. By all accounts they loved him and he was good to them.

So...Either The term 'The Jew' or 'JEW' was used as a slang insult referring to one or both FJ/JJ OR it was a code name used when referring to them in verbal or written conversation. I don't think the name James Ed Warren was pulled out of thin air. So far every known alias they used has a meaning.

If JWJ was comptroller of KGC...Could Frank of been in a co-comptroller position?

Could Frank and/or Jesse been really tight with funds? If we look at JEW as a slang insult?

I play around with anagrams and numbers with my work...hidden meanings using names, letters and numbers that are in correspondence files of people or entities and 'I think' (famous last words) JEW or The Jew has something to do with a code name regarding a larger organization. Not used as an insult. Thinking of the times...How many people would of really known that they had a Jewish Stepfather? Today we could just turn on CNN and hear the latest version of everyone they ever waved to.

Samuel wasn't practicing and newspapers were slow with news and had small articles...not going into individuals religion much with the civil war going on. Slavery yes, but the James-Samuels Family were slave owners and almost every mainstream religion was represented as slave owners. I'd have to look at newspaper archives regarding Jewish slave or non slave owner beliefs or ownership. In my little bitty area of the country where ancestors settled I don't know of any Jewish people...Still.

The black guy, John Trammell that comes up occasionally as being with the James-Younger gang was taken in by Zerelda and she treated him well....taught him to cook and he was the camp cook when he went with FJ and JJ etal. He also provided an in for them with black communities after the war by vouching for them resulting in loyalty and places to hide. No one looked at those places since the James were Confederate. Indians are another widely overlooked resource for JJ information..ya gotta weed through family or tribe stories since there were few verifiable documented records on anything.

Two Questions:

Are there many Scots-Irish Jewish people in Virginia? My family that's still there have never mentioned it.

Can Jewish people belong to the Masons?

Hope this information helps on the Jewish question.

Kace

 

[Rebel - KGC]

As I WAS a 32nd Degree SR mason... the Master Mason Degree (3rd), is the HIGHEST you can "go"; w/o it, you can not be SR (Scottish Rite, 32 Degrees) nor YR (York Rite, 7 Degrees, Royal Arch Mason). The SR 33rd IS Honorary; don't know much about it... HAVE been to the SR Temple in DC; Albert Pike is "there" buried in the Wall, up there. Virginia is part of the Southern Jurisdiction; SR NJ (Northern Jurisdiction) is in Boston, I think... they are similar; no AP for them, tho. NOW, within the SR SJ, there are MANY "branches" you can "go" as a 32nd... I didn't. Yes, Master Masons can be Jewish; their Holy Book on the Altar would be the Old Testament, I think...
Bro. Albert Pike (33rd) COULD have made JJ a MM "at sight"; MOST Grand Master can do that (or could); that means JJ never "worked the 3 "Blue Lodge" Degrees"; then, maybe made JJ a 32nd/33rd "at sight"... dunno. Will not answer any more questions on Masonry...