Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[azdave35]

Does that one have Silver ore related to it,

Babymick1 thanks

not sure mick..i have never made the climb up to it...its in the dacite cliff's by dons camp..you can see it from the highway

 

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[deducer]

for those not familiar with andy synbad..he lived on apache trail north of the mammoth mine...he spent his life looking for treasure in the mountains...he financed his hunts by holding yard sales on his property....he is probably most well known for his involvement in the excavation of the spiral staircase on the southwest face on the superstition mountain

As with most of the characters that we've come to be familiar with, in relation to the legends and stories surrounding the Superstitions- none of them are without their faults or shady history. But this doesn't mean we automatically discard what they discovered or the stories they have to share, from Travis Tumlinson, Michael Bilbrey, Crazy Jake, Milton Rose, to Andy Syndbad.

As has been said many times, we are dealing, not with an academic institute where sources and citations are an absolute requirement, but with the field of treasure hunting where subterfuge, fraud, and outright lies, are the norm.

So my way of getting around that, without throwing out the baby with the bathwater is to look for patterns, and for things that can be corroborated.

For example here's a passage from the manuscript:

... (he was to)... return to that mine (a small mine east of Iron Mountain) and tell the miners to conceal the mine and destroy the arrastras and leave no evidence that could lead others to find that mine, then travel south where they would meet at an old well not far from what is now Florence Junction.

This "old well" can be seen on this map below, and not far from Florence Junction:

 

[sailaway]

Dutchmans Trail above Miners Needle(lower attachment). This is Weavers Needle from the south and it is still reverse view from drawing. So south of Weavers Needle does not make it the right view. This was why the old timers were looking north of the needle

However when viewed from White mountain the view is correct.


Thing is is the drawing of Weavers or another formation?

 

[deducer]

The " Padre's " name was for a specific mine/tunnel or for all the mines from that region ?
Waltz was talking about at least two rich gold mines , the shaft and the tunnel . We have to decide which mine we would like to call LDM , the shaft or the tunnel ?
For both , Waltz gave clues to Julia and Holmes , but to Julia , from what I can see in her map , told and maybe drew the path from the shaft ( three pines ) to the tunnel ( the final X ) . This path , in Julia's map is somehow ( intentionally or accidentally ) reversed .

Good questions Marius.

It's my belief that it refers to the very specific region where several very rich chimney deposits exist(ed), and that they called it the "Padre's Mine" for sake of simplicity. It's probably safe to assume that Miguel didn't bring over a hundred men to just work one or two chimney deposits, but to work that region, and others as well- and some worked the forge, some worked the smelters, and others hunted food, took care of the animals, and procured water.

I am guilty of adding to this confusion- I should not have said LDM = Padre's mine, because what we refer to as the LDM is just one of the chimney deposits that Waltz either rediscovered or was led to, whereas the Padre's mine appears to include the LDM as well as the other chimney deposits in that specific area.

And as far as the shaft and tunnel- if I'm not wrong, they are both the same. The tunnel was begun when the shaft became too hard to work.

 

[markmar]

Good questions Marius.

It's my belief that it refers to the very specific region where several very rich chimney deposits exist(ed), and that they called it the "Padre's Mine" for sake of simplicity. It's probably safe to assume that Miguel didn't bring over a hundred men to just work one or two chimney deposits, but to work that region, and others as well- and some worked the forge, some worked the smelters, and others hunted food, took care of the animals, and procured water.

I am guilty of adding to this confusion- I should not have said LDM = Padre's mine, because what we refer to as the LDM is just one of the chimney deposits that Waltz either rediscovered or was led to, whereas the Padre's mine appears to include the LDM as well as the other chimney deposits in that specific area.

And as far as the shaft and tunnel- if I'm not wrong, they are both the same. The tunnel was begun when the shaft became too hard to work.

Arthur

I will tell you and to the others how these two mines are placed . This is the result of my research ( don't ask more ) and everybody is free to take it seriously or just to get a loud laugh .
If you ever will find the roofless two rooms stone house in a cave's mouth at the base of a cliff , then from there to the tunnel are fifty yards across the gulch and ten degrees east to north , and from the tunnel to the shaft are 75 yards and forty degrees south to east .
These are the real clues to the LD mines .

 

[azdave35]

Arthur

I will tell you and to the others how these two mines are placed . This is the result of my research ( don't ask more ) and everybody is free to take it seriously or just to get a loud laugh .
If you ever will find the roofless two rooms stone house in a cave's mouth at the base of a cliff , then from there to the tunnel are fifty yards across the gulch and ten degrees east to north , and from the tunnel to the shaft are 75 yards and forty degrees south to east .
These are the real clues to the LD mines .

marius....the place you describe is in rogers canyon.....right up the canyon from the pit mine.....

 

[markmar]

marius....the place you describe is in rogers canyon.....right up the canyon from the pit mine.....

Dave

I'm not talking about the Indian two room house in a cave that Bicknell signed on its logs , but about another stone house ( my avatar ) which is not in a cave , but outside in front of a cave .
The house which I am talking about , is not a house , but was a church . The rooms are so small that you can't set a bed in them .

 

[azdave35]

Dave

I'm not talking about the Indian two room house in a cave that Bicknell signed on its logs , but about another stone house ( my avatar ) which is not in a cave , but outside in front of a cave .
The house which I am talking about , is not a house , but was a church . The rooms are so small that you can't set a bed in them .

marius...if the place you describe is located in the superstitions ..then it has eluded me and thousands of others..because i have never heard of it existing...the only roofless house in a cave at the base of a cliff that i have heard of is the one in rogers canyon

 

[markmar]

marius...if the place you describe is located in the superstitions ..then it has eluded me and thousands of others..because i have never heard of it existing...the only roofless house in a cave at the base of a cliff that i have heard of is the one in rogers canyon

Yes Dave , the last man ( before me ) who saw that stone house and we are aware of , was Waltz . I believe also , how another party of about six men who are mentioned in Conatser book , saw it in the 40's . But from what I have read , they haven't found the mines .

 

[markmar]

deducer

I believe , we should name as LDM , the Waltz tunnel mine . From what Waltz had stated , the tunnel is the richest gold mine in the world , so we can conclude how is richest than the shaft/incline mine . Also , the tunnel was the mine which was worked only by Waltz ( and maybe Wiser ) at his time frame .

 

[Cubfan64]

Dave

I'm not talking about the Indian two room house in a cave that Bicknell signed on its logs , but about another stone house ( my avatar ) which is not in a cave , but outside in front of a cave .
The house which I am talking about , is not a house , but was a church . The rooms are so small that you can't set a bed in them .

Marius - what convinces you that it is a church and not a natural rock formation or native american ruins? Just curious what things you've seen or found there that gives you that assurance.

 

[markmar]

Marius - what convinces you that it is a church and not a natural rock formation or native american ruins? Just curious what things you've seen or found there that gives you that assurance.

Paul

I can't give away my research . You can to take my word as a seal or as a joke . That ruin was the Santa Fe church . Is a small church , which maybe was made for the miners and the Padres who worshiped it .

 

[Doc4261]

Paul

I can't give away my research . You can to take my word as a seal or as a joke . That ruin was the Santa Fe church . Is a small church , which maybe was made for the miners and the Padres who worshiped it .

View attachment 1538124 HMM , smiles. for the life of me cant remember exactly this is but took a pic as it stood out for me also. know roughly where. one of 2 spots. I thought the same thing about a house. with the mines in the area quite poss a church but doubt it .but I havnt been there.

 

[somehiker]

marius...if the place you describe is located in the superstitions ..then it has eluded me and thousands of others..because i have never heard of it existing...the only roofless house in a cave at the base of a cliff that i have heard of is the one in rogers canyon

While the house in the cave in Rogers Canyon may be said to have two rooms, one has a roof which is largely intact to this day.
It also has a stairway going up to the roof, as well as ample space around and behind the structure itself.
I'm sure Waltz would have noticed those details, and I believe would have described it as more than just a roofless two room house in a cave.
I know that some have suggested the walled cave in Peters Canyon as a possibility, but unless a dividing wall has been removed since Waltz's day, it could only be described as a single room There are other caves with walls out there, including two I know of that are also divided into two rooms by rock walls. There is a third I know of, where handprints are still visible in the mud plaster, with one room inside the cave itself, and the foundation and fallen walls of at least one other room at the entrance, and under the cliff overhang. That one was originally coated with a red plaster on the outside, but it's a lot further than any distance mentioned in the clues to any mine, hidden or not, that could lie across from it. So far, I don't consider any of these as candidates.

 

[Doc4261]

Refound it , yes is very well hidden would only be able to see it from above unless u knew where it was or stumbled on it . and there are 2 mines around there also. well known on the maps . lots of geology in that area . about 1000 ft from house is the mines. View attachment 1538138

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul

I can't give away my research . You can to take my word as a seal or as a joke . That ruin was the Santa Fe church . Is a small church , which maybe was made for the miners and the Padres who worshiped it .

No problem Marius - I know better than to ask for anyone to give away their research, but I thought perhaps you had been there and seen artifacts or some signs that suggest it was a church. I get the sense that you have not physically been there yet, but you've found some documentation or something of the sort that puts a church in that specific spot.

I'm not laughing at you, but I hope you understand I can't just take your word for it either.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Things that make you go "Hmm..." Submitted for general perusal.

I admit this is WAY down in the weeds, but does anyone care to comment on this mining claim? (Fair warning, it's not Waltz)

I noticed some names were underlined...was reminded of a letter from Jim Bark to Northcut Ely regarding "Gid Roberts, an old prospector friend of the family...". (Thanks, Cubfan)


View attachment 1538232

 

[wrmickel1]

Things that make you go "Hmm..." Submitted for general perusal.

I admit this is WAY down in the weeds, but does anyone care to comment on this mining claim? (Fair warning, it's not Waltz)

I noticed some names were underlined...was reminded of a letter from Jim Bark to Northcut Ely regarding "Gid Roberts, an old prospector friend of the family...". (Thanks, Cubfan)





View attachment 1538232

Well it does say at the top Unofficial Document

Babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

Pot Belly

Know as the Gold Starr / Spurr

Whats the official name of mine

babymick1

 

[azdave35]

Things that make you go "Hmm..." Submitted for general perusal.

I admit this is WAY down in the weeds, but does anyone care to comment on this mining claim? (Fair warning, it's not Waltz)

I noticed some names were underlined...was reminded of a letter from Jim Bark to Northcut Ely regarding "Gid Roberts, an old prospector friend of the family...". (Thanks, Cubfan)


View attachment 1538232

anyone any good at translating old cursive writing?.....it gives me a headache...lol