Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[azdave35]

Wayne,

Ron's interview, pretty much, repeats what I have been saying since late 2008. Initially, all of my information and pictures came from Dave Leach but eventually, I managed to dig up some of my own facts. My sources were very close to Ron and were well informed as to what took place concerning the Pit Mine. As Ron mentioned, a number of books since then have had a section dealing with the "Silver Chief". (Pit Mine) I was fairly certain that, in time, Ron would tell the story himself. This seems to be the beginning of that story. As I have written before, I have it on good authority that the Kochera Ore came from the Pit Mine.

I don't know if we will ever get all of the truth but I am satisfied with what I believe I know.

Take care and have a Happy New Year!

Joe

joe...you can lead them to water but you cant make them drink

 

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[somehiker]

joe...you can lead them to water but you cant make them drink

Mick thinks he's found it somewhere else.
Me....I tried the water, but it tastes funny.....

Thing is, you guys all seem to think that this new down-sized version of the LDM is an adequate substitution for what has always been described as something unique and special, ie: the richest "lost" gold mine in the world. At least, that's what has made the mine one of the most well known lost treasure stories for well over a hundred years now. Personally I can't see anything in this story worth bragging about, especially the mess they left behind.

 

[azdave35]

Mick thinks he's found it somewhere else.
Me....I tried the water, but it tastes funny.....View attachment 1531265

mick thinks alot of crazy thoughts...lol

 

[JohnWhite]

guaymas is a decent place and cheap to live...used to be anyway...i haven't been there in quite a while

Guaymas is a pretty nice little town azdave...And it is mentioned in some tales of Tayopa...lol...They do serve up some yummy seafood as well...I used to stop in Guaymas every time I would drive down South in search of lost mines and such...I would always order me a Coco Hawaiiano, not sure of spelling, it is a coconut with shrimp and other seafood which I believe everyone should try at least one in their lives... I believe that they boil the shrimp in sea water which gives a unique flavor... yum yum

 

[wrmickel1]

Dave,

There's always a reason to my madness.

And Somehiker I never said I had a down played version/vision of the Mine.

The saying is Gold is where you find it, But the Dutchman is where it is. But I not yet got my hands on it yet.

I've never looked for the Dutchman's Mine, I follow the Stones, The only reason the Heart comes out of the main map
is that's all you need to complete the journey, The instructions are right there, Follow the Map, Follow the Heart!

Happy New Year!

babymick1

 

[JohnWhite]

Actually John, I had been up for about 72 hrs. (working) and got really hacked off by your post...I'm one of those corporate Americans taking advantage of Mexican nationals in "sweatshops" you were referring to...(I can assure you, I lose money on the deal, so that's not the reason I do it)...Oroblanco jumped on my post so fast, I thought maybe he could be telling me to back off...so I made a few sleep-deprived, cryptic posts to the effect of "stopped from going off by Roy" or something like that...after the benefit of a few hours of sleep, I deleted those posts as they weren't germane to the pit mine and were inappropriate...anyway I took your post the wrong way but I'm glad you weren't offended...hope you get your health back to the point where you can find some lost mines...

So back to the LDM...one of the guys I've wondered about in the past is Gideon Roberts...has he been found on a census, or other official record in the 1891 time-frame? I'm going to research him later when I have the ability to, but if someone else has already found him would like to know before I go off on a wild goose chase...Thanks, Jim

I am sorry to hear that you were offended potbelly jim...I may not know the whole story...I have only heard it from the Mexican horse's mouth...And some are even fortunate enough to have medical coverage and such...But I still believe that some of the sweat shops of which I speak should not be given any additional tax cuts and such from Donul Dump and his cronies...

As for hearing it from the Corporate America's mouth...I would not believe anything that they would have to say...My shoulder, neck, back, and some of the mental issues that I am experiencing are the direct result of corporate America's greed...In my youth I used to work for a not so very well known "American Home Foods" which was a division of "American Home Products"...An image of Corporate America at its best...You might even say that some of Corporate America's bright ideas may have even come from some of my suggestions...hehehe...But who can say for certain...

Heck I am sorry IF my post is off subject...Some may say it has nothing at all to do with the subject...I was a little tipsy at the time and I may have been doing a little venting...

I doubt that I will ever be able to do any serious prospecting, due to my physical injuries...But heck...IF I could find a mine worth working down South...I could pay some Mexican nationals $20 for an 8 hour work day and possibly make some of their lives a little better...One may always dream...Hell...I used to pay some Mexican nationals $20 for a couple of hours of beer drinking and shooting the breeze...And of course there was the time that I paid several hundred for a week long trip into the hills of Durango...I guess we'll just have to wait and see Jim...

I am still kicking around a trip to Nevada, to search for the other piece of what I believe was a diamond, that I gave away on a drunken binder...

Though as I have mentioned...IF I ever do grow me some cajones...I can just pack up and move to Mexico and I would not need a mine...I could live well on my current stipend...Only time will tell...

 

[somehiker]

Dave,

There's always a reason to my madness.

And Somehiker I never said I had a down played version/vision of the Mine.

The saying is Gold is where you find it, But the Dutchman is where it is. But I not yet got my hands on it yet.

I've never looked for the Dutchman's Mine, I follow the Stones, The only reason the Heart comes out of the main map
is that's all you need to complete the journey, The instructions are right there, Follow the Map, Follow the Heart!

Happy New Year!

babymick1

By "it", I meant that you had said you found 4 mines of your own Mick.
Not that any of them are the LDM. Hell, there's holes all over the place out there, with many having stuff around them that resembles some of what is said to be from the "clues".
That's why all those mines and prospects are in those locations of course, and some took a lot more than three years of part-time effort out of someone's life to dig. But they kept at it because they really thought they would eventually hit Waltz's 18 inch vein or shelf of gold ore.
I don't think there's much point in trying to come up with a solution for the stones. What with all the different stories and claims that have cast that whole subject into a well of doubt, there doesn't seem to be any point in linking them to any worthwhile discovery out there. Same probably goes for anyone finding a rich gold mine down the road, and they would be better off in just saying they found it by using some kind of "secret" information IMO.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I am sorry to hear that you were offended potbelly jim...I may not know the whole story...I have only heard it from the Mexican horse's mouth...And some are even fortunate enough to have medical coverage and such...
SNIP

Thanks, John...it was my lack of sleep that was to blame, not you...I had "saggy diapers", so to speak...I don't know the whole story about what Mexican workers have to put up with either, just my own little piece...Best, Jim

 

[PotBelly Jim]

For reference, and further discussion...... here's a list of 99 clues I saved from an old post....by Peter Esposito I think...
It credits most of the original sources.

The Lost Dutchman Mine

99 Clues !

...SNIP...

SH, thanks...These clues ought to be put in one of those "sticky" posts at the top of the LDM forum page...not sure how that's done...

 

[Oroblanco]

Markmar wrote

Joe

I won't stay in who are the best LDM hunters in the world , but I would remind you the Waltz clue " No cowboy will find my mine " . Maybe this is their destiny or curse . Is not enough to know all the trails , but is required more knownledge , like maps decrypting and to have the capability to distinguish clues that fit in the maps .
There are at last two maps which show a tunnel across a gulch/ravine from a house in a cave , and these are : the " Perfil mapa " and the " Minas del Oro " map .

That is why I NEVER ever say that I am a 'cowboy' - I know exactly what that job entails and it ain't the way they describe it in the movies! (haha) Allegedly Waltz also stated that 'no prospector will ever find my mine' with no explanation as to why, although there is supposedly an explanation for the 'cowboy' statement, that no cowboy will bother to get off his horse to look. It is a nuisance to have to dismount and mount, especially if you have a tall horse. The prospector statement I would GUESS is alluding to the fact that his mine must be in a type of rock/deposit that is most unpromising for gold to be found.

Agreed to what Wayne (Somehiker) said too, that 'Pit' mine simply can't be the lost Dutchman's mine. There is good reason to believe that most of the shaft and tunnel were dug for the silver, not gold, and the modern day miners worked a pocket found down inside the already existing mine. This would hardly fit with Waltz stating that there was "enough gold left SHOWING in his mine to make millionaires of twenty men" (with gold at his day worth $20.67 per ounce) in other words he was guess-timating at least a million ounces of gold left in the mine. This has been debated at length before, but the type of ore used for the matchbox itself is a clue that it probably (I would say almost certainly) came from a rather unusual (if not rare) type of gold vein for Arizona, hypothermic; these normally run to great depths and do not pinch out like the very common epithermal deposits. The ore that made the matchbox came from a deposit with characteristics more like the Vulture mine than the Bully Bueno. It would also be the right type of deposit that a man could make such a statement about having plenty of gold left in it even after he had removed several thousand dollars worth.

Joe - I would respectfully disagree with you on that statement about 'wasting your time looking for the lost Dutchman mine' - for I don't see that as any kind of wasted time. I would say that spending a lifetime working at a factory somewhere, putting a widget on another widget day after day just for the dollars to keep alive to keep putting more widgets on widgets would be the true waste of our time. Just the opinion of a prospector of course, which profession was once viewed as an honorable calling.


Please do continue;

 

[somehiker]

Another one of Charlie's videos, featuring Ron.....

 

[Old]

Wayne, thanks for posting the episodes from Charlie LeSueur's series. Interesting stuff.

Whether you are of a mind the LDM has been found or hold out that it hasn't been, one thing should be crystal clear.

What Joe, others, and to a smaller degree; even I have been telling you is true.

Please note that in the first clip posted, minute 1:26 and forward Mr. Feldman tells you in no uncertain terms he obtained a US Forest Service Treasure Trove Permit to excavate an old Spanish mine based on Ted Cox's research. Period, end of story. Nothing about ....just cleaning out an old spring or improving the water flow for wildlife out of the goodness of his heart. Although those collateral benefits did happen and were anticipated in the issuance of the permit.

Joe has told you that, Dave has told you that, and I've told you and shown you a copy of the permit. Regardless of what spin others may want to put on this aspect of the story, I sincerely hope the words right out of the horse's mouth (so to speak) can put the issue to rest for even the most doubting among you.

Don't confuse the Roger's Spring permit with the Pit Mine excavation. Related; but two different places. If you read Mr. Feldman's body language he tells you that in the clip. He clearly draws a distinction between Roger's Spring (the permit site) and what he believes is the LDM. Watch the eyebrows and the shift in body weight, they tell volumes.

 

[somehiker]

Wayne, thanks for posting the episodes from Charlie LeSueur's series. Interesting stuff.

Whether you are of a mind the LDM has been found or hold out that it hasn't been, one thing should be crystal clear.

What Joe, others, and to a smaller degree; even I have been telling you is true.

Please note that in the first clip posted, minute 1:26 and forward Mr. Feldman tells you in no uncertain terms he obtained a US Forest Service Treasure Trove Permit to excavate an old Spanish mine based on Ted Cox's research. Period, end of story. Nothing about ....just cleaning out an old spring or improving the water flow for wildlife out of the goodness of his heart. Although those collateral benefits did happen and were anticipated in the issuance of the permit.

Joe has told you that, Dave has told you that, and I've told you and shown you a copy of the permit. Regardless of what spin others may want to put on this aspect of the story, I sincerely hope the words right out of the horse's mouth (so to speak) can put the issue to rest for even the most doubting among you.

Don't confuse the Roger's Spring permit with the Pit Mine excavation. Related; but two different places. If you read Mr. Feldman's body language he tells you that in the clip. He clearly draws a distinction between Roger's Spring (the permit site) and what he believes is the LDM. Watch the eyebrows and the shift in body weight, they tell volumes.

Too bad you weren't at the Rendezvous for Ron's talk on the permit excavation Lynda.
Ya coulda learned what the rest of us did, since he took the opportunity to fill in some of the blanks and clear up much of the innuendo.
As far as the difference between the two digs goes, many of us have been involved in these discussions, on and offline, for a lot longer than you have, so don't make assumptions.
We are, in some cases, well aware of how all this is being played out for public consumption.

 

[Old]

No doubt Wayne. I am sure there are holes in what I believe and much information that could broaden my knowledge. I don't claim to know it all, just some small pieces in which I have great confidence. My quest from the get-go was to affirm, where possible, what exists in the public record and obtainable in off-record sources. That I have done on this subject and others.

Now as to the rendezvous.......Had I visited, I feel fairly confident I could have, by my appearance alone, cleared up any misconception in the minds of dirty old men that I'm some kind of rich cougar praying on young men as toys. A conversation enjoyed by many, including you. How laughable on many levels, and how incredibly small and evil minded in the perpetuators of such rubbish.

 

[somehiker]

No doubt Wayne. I am sure there are holes in what I believe and much information that could broaden my knowledge. I don't claim to know it all, just some small pieces in which I have great confidence. My quest from the get-go was to affirm, where possible, what exists in the public record and obtainable in off-record sources. That I have done on this subject and others.

Now as to the rendezvous.......Had I visited, I feel fairly confident I could have, by my appearance alone, cleared up any misconception in the minds of dirty old men that I'm some kind of rich cougar praying on young men as toys. A conversation enjoyed by many, including you. How laughable on many levels, and how incredibly small and evil minded in the perpetuators of such rubbish.

Now, that's quite a vile accusation you are making there. I don't know who has been feeding you that BS, but I have never engaged in any such talk...with anyone....and under no circumstances would. In fact, I have heard nothing of the sort from ANYONE who I have been in contact with.

 

[deducer]

 

[somehiker]

Weird ain't it ?

 

[markmar]

Oroblanco

You are right on the cowboy clue . There is not reason for a cowboy to go in that region . Even if the first LDM searchers were the most part ranchers/cowboys . I doubt they would leave ( have left ) the trail and the horse for at least a mile of hike/climb . Not how someone couldn't drag a horse or a mule in that place .
As i wrote , is not enough to know the trails and the region . They would just looking at the spot without knowing there is something worth . They had the maps , but haven't the skills to read them . The most clues are accurate , but sadly they could be attached to different places because the terrain is about the same all over the range . Only the maps make the difference .

Now about the prospector clue , I believe is because nobody would think/try to go in that region . A prospector , looking at that place , the only thing he would do , is to pan the wash down stream for gold traces . The Peraltas did this practice and they were rewarded . All the wash for a long distance was full of gold nuggets . But ... after they collected a large amount of gold placer , they intentionally dug a lot of holes in the wash/canyon below the mines , for the purpose to " trap " the gold that for some reason would slip down on the slopes . Waltz was aware about those holes ( the same water holes that John Reed was talking about ) and maybe for this reason he supposed how no prospector would find his mine .

 

[azdave35]

marius...they ran cattle in that area back then..probably still do....and if a cow wandered up to the pit mine..then a cowboy had to go up and get him....and you could ride a horse and pack mules to the pit mine...i know people that have done it...especially back then..there wasn't as much overgrowth as now

 

[cactusjumper]

Fact is, that a cowboy did find the mine.

No opinions on Herman Mountain?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo