Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[JohnWhite]

I wasn't there when Holmes decided to sell the matchbox, but the explanation given was that he was broke and needed money. I can affirm that when you are broke, and you really need money, you will find it's possible to sell things that otherwise you would never sell. I don't see any reason to doubt Holmes explanation.

Please do continue,

You got that right Oro...You might even say that some might even sell their souls...lol...

I took a trip down South last weekend and learned that some honest hard working Mexican citizens earn a measly $8 per 12 hour workday and said pay is considered generous...This is even at a corporate American sweatshop, who Donul Dump gave a generous tax cut to...Or at least I believe it is an American sweat shop...Who knowsAs IF corporate America needed any more generosity...

I wonder IF I could live comfortably down their on my disability incomehehehe...I can get my medications pretty cheap down there...rofl...Being my paranoid self...I picked up some 10mg olanzapine for less than $30 in TJ...lmao

 

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[PotBelly Jim]

John, why mine if you get disability income? Have fun with it down south.

 

[Oroblanco]

John, why mine if you get disability income? Have fun with it down down south.

I think you already know that answer - it's in the blood; like the old joke about the prospector that won the lottery, when asked what he would do now that he was a multi-millionaire, he answered that he would keep on prospecting until the money ran out.

 

[Old]

If this is a bad subject I'll just quit talking about it. Sometimes (often <g) I'm prone to dissecting something to death.

I understand completely the need to convert raw product to cash. I can relate to Holmes' need to do that in this case. I'm not questioning that aspect of the story.

Its the thought process and selection of what to keep and what to sell that went into that decision I'm having a hard time reconciling.

After selecting that portion Holmes wanted to keep for his personal use, he sold the hoard to Goldman. Apparently at gold bearing weight value.

Weight is weight........Just using 20 ounces as an example for discussion.......20 ounces saved is 20 ounces not sold regardless of which pieces make up 20 ounces. Its the selection of the pieces saved and not sold I'm having a hard time with. If the matchbox specimen was one of the larger pieces in the hoard Holmes could have hit it with a hammer to break it into smaller pieces if he was looking to maximize the weight value sold and still keep enough to make small jewelry items like a stick pin or a ring setting. Where am I missing the point here?

 

[sdcfia]

... I had no idea that Holmes had the matchbox made…as I understood the story, it was made by a jeweler for presentation to someone, and then at some later date, it came out that it was made with ore that Holmes had sold in PHX…if it was made by/for Holmes with the other jewelry, then you have cleared that issue up for me…my comment about the other jewelry not matching up is because I’m unsure if it ALL came from Brownie…If someone other than Brownie or his heirs popped up with Dutchman ore jewelry, I would question that…also I wouldn’t be surprised if the ore under Waltz’s bed came from more than one mine…a miner’s “401-k”, so to speak, of select ores from his various mining ventures…


I totally understand the importance of having scientific methods (matching ore) to validating the legend and determining if someone really “found the LDM”…I would be satisfied with having just one piece of jewelry or ore match up with any “LDM find”. I doubt that would settle the issue, however, and people would still be arguing the issue…anyway, I hope I have done a better job of explaining myself, I know it’s a fault of mine that I’m not very good at articulating what I’m thinking…

Best, Jim

A few things to consider re the matchbox specimen:
1) First, you have to put your mind back in the day. During the western mining era, gold in all forms was money, literally, particularly in scarcely populated regions where more convenient paper money was not as accessible or well-trusted. Gold was the coin of the realm, as they say - dust, nuggets, ore, minted specie - all forms were accumulated, hoarded, traded, whatever. It was a common, accepted way of daily life that we in the fiat funny money world might attach a romantic stigma to that didn't exist for those folks back in the day. Gold was merely money.
2) When the Anglos first invaded the western states, and for many years afterwards, gold miners often led the charge and mines that yielded rich ores (by today's standards) were not uncommon. Nice to have some rich ore, yes, but it was not necessarily revered as some sort of "legendary" commodity - it was just money. Placer, of course, was much more common at first, but then came lode mining and the high-grading (legal or otherwise) of ore with native gold visible ("picture rock", like the matchbox stuff). The practice was common everywhere that rich ore was found and mined, and for many years that was in many places throughout the western states. As people moved on, they took their stashes with them. As you said, Jim, it was like an early savings account, but hard money not electronic credits. Folks ought to know that the practice of high-grading picture rock from lode mines was still alive and thriving at least into the 1970s - I know this is true because I participated in the practice myself. The point is that producing gold mines often yielded picture rock which was commonly hoarded and traded when those mines were working.
3) The matchbox ore is quite tasty, but by no means unique. Despite opinions to the contrary, identifying the source of the ore would be virtually impossible unless you found the mine it came from and the pay streak within it to compare with. There is no complete database of ore specimens available from western mines - not even close - to use for scientific analysis. Nice theory, but very likely not gonna happen. That matchbox ore could have come from some yet to be determined location in the Superstitions, sure, but it also could have come from the San Juans in CO (that's where I worked and saw much similar picture rock), or other mines in AZ, CO, CA, UT, MEX, wherever. Just because the ore's seller claimed it was from the LDM doesn't make it so, but it certainly may have increased its value. If I were to sell you an old Stratocaster guitar worth a thousand dollars, I might get ten thousand if I could convince you it once belonged to Jimi Hendrix, eh?

Putting aside the boatload of lore surrounding the LDM, based primarily on peoples' "testimonies", my conclusion is that Waltz - a retired miner and Phoenix chicken farmer - may have owned a cache of nice gold ore that he accumulated during his active years. To bolster an old man's image and standing in the community, he may have bragged about a fabulous lost mine in tough terrain that will, conveniently, never be found. I will gladly change my opinion when I see a reason to.

 

[cactusjumper]

A few things to consider re the matchbox specimen:
1) First, you have to put your mind back in the day. During the western mining era, gold in all forms was money, literally, particularly in scarcely populated regions where more convenient paper money was not as accessible or well-trusted. Gold was the coin of the realm, as they say - dust, nuggets, ore, minted specie - all forms were accumulated, hoarded, traded, whatever. It was a common, accepted way of daily life that we in the fiat funny money world might attach a romantic stigma to that didn't exist for those folks back in the day. Gold was merely money.
2) When the Anglos first invaded the western states, and for many years afterwards, gold miners often led the charge and mines that yielded rich ores (by today's standards) were not uncommon. Nice to have some rich ore, yes, but it was not necessarily revered as some sort of "legendary" commodity - it was just money. Placer, of course, was much more common at first, but then came lode mining and the high-grading (legal or otherwise) of ore with native gold visible ("picture rock", like the matchbox stuff). The practice was common everywhere that rich ore was found and mined, and for many years that was in many places throughout the western states. As people moved on, they took their stashes with them. As you said, Jim, it was like an early savings account, but hard money not electronic credits. Folks ought to know that the practice of high-grading picture rock from lode mines was still alive and thriving at least into the 1970s - I know this is true because I participated in the practice myself. The point is that producing gold mines often yielded picture rock which was commonly hoarded and traded when those mines were working.
3) The matchbox ore is quite tasty, but by no means unique. Despite opinions to the contrary, identifying the source of the ore would be virtually impossible unless you found the mine it came from and the pay streak within it to compare with. There is no complete database of ore specimens available from western mines - not even close - to use for scientific analysis. Nice theory, but very likely not gonna happen. That matchbox ore could have come from some yet to be determined location in the Superstitions, sure, but it also could have come from the San Juans in CO (that's where I worked and saw much similar picture rock), or other mines in AZ, CO, CA, UT, MEX, wherever. Just because the ore's seller claimed it was from the LDM doesn't make it so, but it certainly may have increased its value. If I were to sell you an old Stratocaster guitar worth a thousand dollars, I might get ten thousand if I could convince you it once belonged to Jimi Hendrix, eh?

Putting aside the boatload of lore surrounding the LDM, based primarily on peoples' "testimonies", my conclusion is that Waltz - a retired miner and Phoenix chicken farmer - may have owned a cache of nice gold ore that he accumulated during his active years. To bolster an old man's image and standing in the community, he may have bragged about a fabulous lost mine in tough terrain that will, conveniently, never be found. I will gladly change my opinion when I see a reason to.

Right now, I am almost convinced that the matchbox ore came from the Pit Mine. Can't say why, except to say I have seen compelling evidence, assuming it's legitimate. I imagine, it will all be revealed, someday.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[markmar]

Merry Christmas to everyone !!!

 

[JohnWhite]

John, why mine if you get disability income? Have fun with it down south.

I have been doing a lot of thinking as of late PotBelly Jim...And I am seriously thinking about moving down South...Heck...I believe that I could live comfortably on my stipend in TJ or Mazatlan...I might even be able to write a book or three of poetry...I have written over a thousand poems that I can go through and organize them into several books...Who knowsI could even make a trip to Durango every now and then to search for my little version of Tayopa...But with my last experience with the narcos in Durango...I doubt I would pick up that search again...

IF it is God's will for me to move to Mexico I am certain that I will...In the proper season...I am in no hurry...I have a little one bedroom house lined up IF I ever do move down there...I would be neighbors with the old Mexican don's son who showed me the inscribed cowbell and the small rock with the xviii on it...Maybe I could have him show me some of his dad's deposits...hehehe

Only time will tell...

 

[JohnWhite]

I think you already know that answer - it's in the blood; like the old joke about the prospector that won the lottery, when asked what he would do now that he was a multi-millionaire, he answered that he would keep on prospecting until the money ran out.

What is the old saying Oro...You need a mine to be able to work a mineOr something along that line...There was a time when I kept telling myself IF I could find one diamond I could look for the lost platinum deposit...Yet nowadays I have reverted to IF I can stretch my disability check to next month things will be o.k.lol

One day I'll save up enough cash to search for one of my lost deposits...But I am not going to cry over the spilled milk...Maybe some other lucky prospector will stumble upon them one day...And they too will put two and two together and realize that one of the deposits is the area depicted in the PSMs...

 

[Oroblanco]

MERRY CHRISTMAS to you all!

Merry Christmas to you all.

Joe, me too! Almost that is. I just have a few issues to get over before I can start handing out the backslaps and hearty congratulations.

First, the lost Peralta/Ludy mine started out as a lost silver mine, known for having rich pockets of gold. I have not seen anything concerning the Pit mine that disagrees with that description. The Peralta/Ludy mine is certainly not the mine of Jacob Waltz. There are strong reasons to believe that the Peralta mine story got mixed in with the Waltz story on the death of Waltz, possibly by the very first people to search for Waltz's mine. The Peralta/Ludy tale had been in circulation since at least 1878, while Waltz was still alive. Conversely, the alternate version of how Jacob Waltz found his mine and worked it, includes no funnel shaped pit, no massacre, no tunnel below etc. In fact it seems to be located in a very different area altogether.

Second, until someone can provide some kind of scientific proof to match the ore we can see in the matchbox (as one possible comparison specimen) anyone can claim that they found the lost Dutchman's gold mine.

I have tried several times to upload some supporting evidence on that second issue, but will post this and try it as a separate post because I am having a lot of trouble uploading, it has caused my PC to freeze and crash several times already tonight.

Feliz Navidad, Feliz Natal, God Jul, Froliche Weinachten, Merry Christmas.

 

[Oroblanco]

John - amen brother to that first part, it costs money to find money for sure. However remember that it costs very little to camp, and you have plenty of experience along that line, you could probably spend a lot of time at little cost to hunt for your lost platinum mine.

Now to try uploading those articles again:

John Chuning found the LDM west of Weavers Needle

View attachment Arizona republican., December 11, 1901 John Chuning found LDM near Weavers Needle.pdf
Scotty found the LDM east of Goldfield
View attachment Bisbee daily review., October 23, 1914 LDM found by Scotty east of Goldfield.pdf
Jack Morton found the LDM

Lost Dutchman found in Four Peaks
View attachment The Florence tribune., February 24, 1900 Joe Mulhanny found it.pdf
Joe Mulhanney found the LDM

We could go on here with MANY others, and you need only look at some of the older threads under this subforum to see quite a few examples. Heck among the readers are probably several that are convinced they have found the Lost Dutchman's mine.

Without SOME kind of scientific proof to settle the question, we have to consider all of these claims as equal in value. Or we could limit it to those that have some gold to show but even this would include a great many of the earlier claims for most of them found a gold vein and or a gold mine that put money in the pockets of the finders.

It always puzzles me that some folks hardly seem to care about the gold, only wanting the fame of being the finder, and others want the fame or notoriety but refuse to put their ore to the test. I don't want to hear any more excuses, the old saying of 'put up or...' holds true. If anyone has found a rich gold mine great, congratulations, if you want the fame and notoriety of being the one or ones who found the famous Lost Dutchman's mine, then it is going to take some SOLID proof. The very fact that the folks who worked the Pit mine wish to remain so 'anonymous' shall we say, does not lend credence to the claims of the Pit being the LDM. I am sorry if this offends anyone, but just consider what it means if you just accept things on the word of nameless folks.

Please do continue, NO offense intended to anyone and wishing you all a very Merry Christmas!

 

[JohnWhite]

John - amen brother to that first part, it costs money to find money for sure. However remember that it costs very little to camp, and you have plenty of experience along that line, you could probably spend a lot of time at little cost to hunt for your lost platinum mine.

Now to try uploading those articles again:

John Chuning found the LDM west of Weavers Needle

View attachment 1529449
Scotty found the LDM east of Goldfield
View attachment 1529450
Jack Morton found the LDM
View attachment 1529451
Lost Dutchman found in Four Peaks
View attachment 1529452
Joe Mulhanney found the LDM

We could go on here with MANY others, and you need only look at some of the older threads under this subforum to see quite a few examples. Heck among the readers are probably several that are convinced they have found the Lost Dutchman's mine.

Without SOME kind of scientific proof to settle the question, we have to consider all of these claims as equal in value. Or we could limit it to those that have some gold to show but even this would include a great many of the earlier claims for most of them found a gold vein and or a gold mine that put money in the pockets of the finders.

It always puzzles me that some folks hardly seem to care about the gold, only wanting the fame of being the finder, and others want the fame or notoriety but refuse to put their ore to the test. I don't want to hear any more excuses, the old saying of 'put up or...' holds true. If anyone has found a rich gold mine great, congratulations, if you want the fame and notoriety of being the one or ones who found the famous Lost Dutchman's mine, then it is going to take some SOLID proof. The very fact that the folks who worked the Pit mine wish to remain so 'anonymous' shall we say, does not lend credence to the claims of the Pit being the LDM. I am sorry if this offends anyone, but just consider what it means if you just accept things on the word of nameless folks.

Please do continue, NO offense intended to anyone and wishing you all a very Merry Christmas!

IF I only had the cajones Oro...I am not in any hurry to return to Durango any time soon...I have not been doing much camping as of late either...

I do miss camping out in the open under the stars with no tent and such...I remember when I was in my teens and I would grab a sleeping bag and pack a few supplies in a backpack and head out to the local riverbed for several days...It is nice to think about the past...Yet oh how times have changed...Now there is a camera at the winery on the way to the bridge that I used to use as a starting point for my ventures...And now there is a large number of homeless who have a camp under the bridge...

I will continue to hold on to the dream of moving to Mexico and buying a funeral package down there just in case the worst case scenario does take place...I really do like Mazatlan...And TJ is really not all that bad either...IF I can make up my mind I just may take the plunge and burn a few more bridges...lol...I really do think that I can survive on around forty dollars a day down South...Even though to live in Mexico I believe I would have to prove that I have an income of $1500 per month...Oh well...I do believe that said income requirement may be waived under certain circumstances...hehehe

I am no Don Jose de Tayopa...I don't believe I could use my Marine Corps training down in Mexico...Or could IAnyhow...As I have mentioned...I lack the cajones...On my current stipend...I believe I could survive and live comfortably in Mexico...Heck...IF I am surviving on my stipend here in CA I sure as heck should be able to do it in Mexico...The house I have lined up will only run me $150 per month rent wise...It is a little less than what I am paying here in the states...I have been doing a lot of research on moving to Mexico...I would not need a mine to live down South...I would be earning over 5 times the daily wage of some poor Mexican citizens slaving in an American sweat shop...One day...I can continue to dream...

And as for proof Oro...Cubfan has some of my pistachio pudding...And who knowsMaybe he has even done some high tech tests on said pudding...rofl...I wonder IF he has any scientific proof

IT is where IT is Oro and to all others who choose to search for IT...Good Luck...Oh Well...One day someone will have bigger cajones than I and may find IT...

Merry X-Mas all...

I wish you all well...At least I did not say...Happy Christmas and a Merry NEW YEAR...Hiccup...roflmao

 

[azdave35]

i used to go down to mexico quite a bit 20 years ago..the people i knew down there said their most expensive monthly bill was 12 bucks..and it was for cable tv...their power and water bills were about 3 bucks a month...they all grew veggie gardens and had pigs and cows..plus they got shrimp and fish from the ocean for free...pretty nice life if you ask me

 

[JohnWhite]

i used to go down to mexico quite a bit 20 years ago..the people i knew down there said their most expensive monthly bill was 12 bucks..and it was for cable tv...their power and water bills were about 3 bucks a month...they all grew veggie gardens and had pigs and cows..plus they got shrimp and fish from the ocean for free...pretty nice life if you ask me

Here is a website with some overpriced price quotes... https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/country/mexico ...Mexico is still a nice place to visit...I have heard that Dengue is present in Mazatlan...I would not want to catch said disease...I know a few people who have caught it...

One day...

 

[azdave35]

Here is a website with some overpriced price quotes... https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/country/mexico ...Mexico is still a nice place to visit...I have heard that Dengue is present in Mazatlan...I would not want to catch said disease...I know a few people who have caught it...

One day...

guaymas is a decent place and cheap to live...used to be anyway...i haven't been there in quite a while

 

[Oroblanco]

God Jul, Merry Christmas, Feliz Navidad, Feliz Natal, Fröhliche Weihnachten, καλά Χριστούγεννα,Joyeux Noel to you all!

 

[deducer]

John - amen brother to that first part, it costs money to find money for sure. However remember that it costs very little to camp, and you have plenty of experience along that line, you could probably spend a lot of time at little cost to hunt for your lost platinum mine.

Now to try uploading those articles again:

John Chuning found the LDM west of Weavers Needle

View attachment 1529449
Scotty found the LDM east of Goldfield
View attachment 1529450
Jack Morton found the LDM
View attachment 1529451
Lost Dutchman found in Four Peaks
View attachment 1529452
Joe Mulhanney found the LDM

We could go on here with MANY others, and you need only look at some of the older threads under this subforum to see quite a few examples. Heck among the readers are probably several that are convinced they have found the Lost Dutchman's mine.

Without SOME kind of scientific proof to settle the question, we have to consider all of these claims as equal in value. Or we could limit it to those that have some gold to show but even this would include a great many of the earlier claims for most of them found a gold vein and or a gold mine that put money in the pockets of the finders.

It always puzzles me that some folks hardly seem to care about the gold, only wanting the fame of being the finder, and others want the fame or notoriety but refuse to put their ore to the test. I don't want to hear any more excuses, the old saying of 'put up or...' holds true. If anyone has found a rich gold mine great, congratulations, if you want the fame and notoriety of being the one or ones who found the famous Lost Dutchman's mine, then it is going to take some SOLID proof. The very fact that the folks who worked the Pit mine wish to remain so 'anonymous' shall we say, does not lend credence to the claims of the Pit being the LDM. I am sorry if this offends anyone, but just consider what it means if you just accept things on the word of nameless folks.

Please do continue, NO offense intended to anyone and wishing you all a very Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas to you too, Roy.

As far as John Chuning, I wouldn't put too much weight into what he may or may not have found. For some reason, he started his search late in 1892, whereas Deering died in 1884. That is a long time to wait, and a lot of time for details and directions to become mixed up or morph with other clues/sources. The other thing to remember is that he also veered away from the initial search area he was directed towards, for some reason. The only consistent thing Chuning had done was to search for a specific type of terrain.

 

[markmar]

Merry Christmas to you too, Roy.

As far as John Chuning, I wouldn't put too much weight into what he may or may not have found. For some reason, he started his search late in 1892, whereas Deering died in 1884. That is a long time to wait, and a lot of time for details and directions to become mixed up or morph with other clues/sources. The other thing to remember is that he also veered away from the initial search area he was directed towards, for some reason. The only consistent thing Chuning had done was to search for a specific type of terrain.

deducer

In my opinion , the only type of terrain should search for , is a small valley of about two acres , high up and hidden by the surrounding natural contour of the land . So , someone have to be upon it to see it .

Another important clue that should be taken in consideration , is the juniper that Waltz said he have hidden the mine . In one clue , Waltz said how about a distance from his tunnel , the richest mine in the world , on the mountainside , is a shaft well hidden in the brush . So , the logic says how the shaft hidden in the brush , didn't need a reason to be hidden with a juniper . The only reason to hid a mine with a juniper , is for the tunnel mine which was in a bare rocky shelf at a lip of a cliff .

If someone would find the camp , the roofless two room in a cave's mouth ( my avatar ) , and will look across the ravine/gulch , then will see how from there , at about 200 feet , is a shelf with a single big juniper close to the lip of the cliff . Is the only part of the small hidden valley that you can see from the camp .

 

[Oroblanco]

Merry Christmas to you too, Roy.

As far as John Chuning, I wouldn't put too much weight into what he may or may not have found. For some reason, he started his search late in 1892, whereas Deering died in 1884. That is a long time to wait, and a lot of time for details and directions to become mixed up or morph with other clues/sources. The other thing to remember is that he also veered away from the initial search area he was directed towards, for some reason. The only consistent thing Chuning had done was to search for a specific type of terrain.

Agreed amigo - and as you know, with most of the earlier Dutch hunters, on finding gold while out hunting for the Dutchman's mine, the fact that they had found gold sealed the deal it had to be the lost Dutchman's mine. I don't think any of those early Dutch hunters actually found the mine of Jacob Waltz, although a fair number did find good gold mines in their own right.

Side thing here but the way I posted previously made it sound as if I have no idea who or whom was working the Pit mine and made a fair profit on the deal, which is not the case. I do know the names, however unless they are willing to step out of the shadows and put some ore on the line to be compared, an assay done etc then as far as I am concerned I will happily congratulate them for finding the lost Peralta/Ludy mine, and for finding a nice pocket of gold. I would personally be pretty happy with that.

Also to all, if you believe you have found the lost Dutchman's gold mine, good for you, don't be too concerned about what I might think. I may have simply seen too many people claim that and not have it. After all, if you have found a lot of gold and it is making you rich does it really matter what the mine is called? Not to me it won't!

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Even if it is the Lost Dutchman's mine.

Oroblanco

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I have been doing a lot of thinking as of late PotBelly Jim...And I am seriously thinking about moving down South...Heck...I believe that I could live comfortably on my stipend in TJ or Mazatlan...I might even be able to write a book or three of poetry...I have written over a thousand poems that I can go through and organize them into several books...Who knowsI could even make a trip to Durango every now and then to search for my little version of Tayopa...But with my last experience with the narcos in Durango...I doubt I would pick up that search again...

IF it is God's will for me to move to Mexico I am certain that I will...In the proper season...I am in no hurry...I have a little one bedroom house lined up IF I ever do move down there...I would be neighbors with the old Mexican don's son who showed me the inscribed cowbell and the small rock with the xviii on it...Maybe I could have him show me some of his dad's deposits...hehehe

Only time will tell...

Actually John, I had been up for about 72 hrs. (working) and got really hacked off by your post...I'm one of those corporate Americans taking advantage of Mexican nationals in "sweatshops" you were referring to...(I can assure you, I lose money on the deal, so that's not the reason I do it)...Oroblanco jumped on my post so fast, I thought maybe he could be telling me to back off...so I made a few sleep-deprived, cryptic posts to the effect of "stopped from going off by Roy" or something like that...after the benefit of a few hours of sleep, I deleted those posts as they weren't germane to the pit mine and were inappropriate...anyway I took your post the wrong way but I'm glad you weren't offended...hope you get your health back to the point where you can find some lost mines...

So back to the LDM...one of the guys I've wondered about in the past is Gideon Roberts...has he been found on a census, or other official record in the 1891 time-frame? I'm going to research him later when I have the ability to, but if someone else has already found him would like to know before I go off on a wild goose chase...Thanks, Jim