Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[markmar]

One of the things I came across while rummaging through my files.....

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Wayne

The lost cabin from the article ( known with other names over the time ) was/is the key for the LDM , because looking across the gulch which is on the same moutainside with the rock house ruin , the first thing you could see is only the portion with the mine/tunnel on a small tarrace/shelf . The other landmarks are far over the 200 yards/feet from various clues . The only problem to find the rock two rooms house ruin is because is in a place that nobody would think to go and you can see it only if you would been in front of it or at the LDM site .
Maybe in Waltz eyes this rock house ruin to was only a simple cabin that was used by the miners before he came to that region , but this house ruin has more history than what Waltz and Peralta would thought . This ruin was once upon a time a ... church . A well know to treasure hunters church . Look at the contour of the land around the ruin , and compare it with the CP map filigree ( what means literally perficio ) connecting all the lines at the bottom . Maybe one day I will renewed it ( if this is what was written to do ) and give to it the significance that had in its glory days .
But this is another story for another thread .

And ... happy and lucky new year to everybody !!!

 

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[Grandma Kochera]

Thank-you for posting the videos with Ron Feldman. In my opinion he is one of the leading experts in all things associated with the superstition mountains..I enjoy listening to his talks. Again thank you!

 

[JohnWhite]

John, welcome to Mexico, I caught Dengue at Guadalcanal, it is no fun.

So I have heard, Don Jose...

 

[Cubfan64]

No doubt Wayne. I am sure there are holes in what I believe and much information that could broaden my knowledge. I don't claim to know it all, just some small pieces in which I have great confidence. My quest from the get-go was to affirm, where possible, what exists in the public record and obtainable in off-record sources. That I have done on this subject and others.

Now as to the rendezvous.......Had I visited, I feel fairly confident I could have, by my appearance alone, cleared up any misconception in the minds of dirty old men that I'm some kind of rich cougar praying on young men as toys. A conversation enjoyed by many, including you. How laughable on many levels, and how incredibly small and evil minded in the perpetuators of such rubbish.

I've heard more than a few discussions about Ryan and his work over the last few years including a couple related to who you are, but can honestly say I never heard any reference or implication that you were a "rich cougar" or anything of the sort. I will admit that there have been a few less than flattering discussions concerning Ryan but they were all presented by people who met or had dealings with him in person.

I just got back from traveling over the holidays - just wanted to let you know I wasn't ignoring your post about Hermann Petrasch. I think you and I are saying the same thing as far as sources go. Waltz to Rhiney to Hermann to you/me. I just interpret it differently - if Waltz told it to me directly that would be 1st hand. Rhiney to me would be 2nd hand and Hermann to me would be 3rd hand.

 

[Cubfan64]

Another one of Charlie's videos, featuring Ron.....

More than a couple incorrect statements in this. Also watched the other videos and Ron's comments about the ore Kochera found in the Peter's Mesa area and how it absolutely connects up with the east side of the mountains confuses me. Assuming the Pit Mine IS the LDM, why would the Spanish carry that ore all the way across the mountains to the N/NW to get to the Salt River (in the process losing the ore Kochera supposedly found) when they could very easily just head out of the mountains to the S and back to Mexico?

 

[azdave35]

More than a couple incorrect statements in this. Also watched the other videos and Ron's comments about the ore Kochera found in the Peter's Mesa area and how it absolutely connects up with the east side of the mountains confuses me. Assuming the Pit Mine IS the LDM, why would the Spanish carry that ore all the way across the mountains to the N/NW to get to the Salt River (in the process losing the ore Kochera supposedly found) when they could very easily just head out of the mountains to the S and back to Mexico?

paul...nobody really knows who left the ore kochera found

 

[Cubfan64]

paul...nobody really knows who left the ore kochera found

Dave - my gut tells me there's an untold story or two about the Kochera Ore. Ever since I saw the letter Kochera wrote to Jake in 1974 where he says the following...

With this letter I am enclosing a copy of theassays I had made on the ore we found. They are not too impressive.Just thought you might care to know

Something's fishy about the whole thing imho.

 

[Grandma Kochera]

I think it is only "fishy" if you are under the belief that Kochera only found the one ore sample during his 17 years of going into the Superstitions..I believe he was talking about the ore samples he and his son (who had just come home from a tour in vietnam) picked up during that trip and showed them to crazy jake when they met him in early 1974 ...and no they weren't very impressive compared to other ore samples he had collected during his many trips into those mountains.

 

[Grandma Kochera]

He actually went into the mountains many more years than 17..he was a customer of Ron Feldman for over 17 years..he also made several other trips in his lifetime

 

[azdave35]

yep...ron knew him well

 

[cactusjumper]

Dave

For sure i will come . Is just a matter of time . Some things should be resolved and get cleared out .
As i wrote hundred times , nobody will find it if will don't know where exactly is . So you are right on this detail .

Happy New Year

One of the things I came across while rummaging through my files.....

View attachment 1532132

Wayne,

Always wondered about that article. No mention of Jacob Waltz, even though it's often said that he was, somewhat famous in Phoenix, along with his having a rich gold mine in the Superstitions.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

Always wondered about that article. No mention of Jacob Waltz, even though it's often said that he was, somewhat famous in Phoenix, along with his having a rich gold mine in the Superstitions.

Take care,

Joe

Happy New Year Joe !

I think the story was just an abbreviated version of the one printed in the Phoenix Gazette, and picked up off the wire by the St.John's Herald, who used it for page filler.
Doesn't look like the Herald had a proof-reader.
Then again, maybe someone at the paper was just keeping Waltz's name as their own little secret.

Regards:Wayne

 

[somehiker]

yep...ron knew him well

That he did.....



it's a good thread for those with questions.

 

[somehiker]

Dave - my gut tells me there's an untold story or two about the Kochera Ore. Ever since I saw the letter Kochera wrote to Jake in 1974 where he says the following...



Something's fishy about the whole thing imho.

It's a whole new legend.
Question is.....which shell is the pea under ?

 

[Old]

Thanks Paul, I guess its thanks <g>. I'm going to take it as a vote of semi-confidence and thank you for it. Look forward to more dialog on Herman. Its an interesting point. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Kinda hard to figure what's so interesting or mysterious to Anyone about me. I thought I'd told all that ad nauseam. I'm just a simple person with simple interests living a simple life.

The "news" of the campfire stores rocketed back here within 24 hours of the event and didn't stop for several days and from different directions. Seemed to be quite the buzz of Phoenix town. Are they lying?? What's the motive for that? For what purpose? I don't see any. From unrelated sources? If it was to get a laugh out of my husband, they succeeded. He doubled over laughing on hearing "THAT news". I guess I should be insulted about that too, but its too funny not to laugh. Central casting sure missed the mark on that one.

There is more than one "Wayne" in this event. But; the one posting here knew better. Or should have. He pleads innocent and uninformed. If I heard it almost the same day and it was told as the buzz of the camp by more than one individual totally unrelated, that's a hard one to reconcile. But; I'll take him at his word. Puzzling as it is.

Sad, very sad. All over a hunk of dirt and rock, the significance of which may or may not have ever existed in reality.

 

[somehiker]

I think it is only "fishy" if you are under the belief that Kochera only found the one ore sample during his 17 years of going into the Superstitions..I believe he was talking about the ore samples he and his son (who had just come home from a tour in vietnam) picked up during that trip and showed them to crazy jake when they met him in early 1974 ...and no they weren't very impressive compared to other ore samples he had collected during his many trips into those mountains.[/QUOTE

Welcome back to the conversation Grandma !
Does Kochera mention the "other" samples on the tape recording, or in any written materials ?
If so, does he say where he found them or "mined" them ?
According to Ron, he sold 8 pieces to Ron shortly before he died in 1983. You posted a photo of seven pieces a couple of years ago....http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l....php?attachmentid=1130227&d=1426185844....and Ron has said he donated one piece to the museum, which has gone missing...so that makes eight in total. Joe has recently said he was shown a piece of identical ore recently. Who knows, maybe it was the missing 8th piece ? Others have posted pics of the same ore, though only four pieces that I know of.

 

[somehiker]

Thanks Paul, I guess its thanks <g>. I'm going to take it as a vote of semi-confidence and thank you for it. Look forward to more dialog on Herman. Its an interesting point. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Kinda hard to figure what's so interesting or mysterious to Anyone about me. I thought I'd told all that ad nauseam. I'm just a simple person with simple interests living a simple life.

The "news" of the campfire stores rocketed back here within 24 hours of the event and didn't stop for several days and from different directions. Seemed to be quite the buzz of Phoenix town. Are they lying?? What's the motive for that? For what purpose? I don't see any. From unrelated sources? If it was to get a laugh out of my husband, they succeeded. He doubled over laughing on hearing "THAT news". I guess I should be insulted about that too, but its too funny not to laugh. Central casting sure missed the mark on that one.

There is more than one "Wayne" in this event. But; the one posting here knew better. Or should have. He pleads innocent and uninformed. If I heard it almost the same day and it was told as the buzz of the camp by more than one individual totally unrelated, that's a hard one to reconcile. But; I'll take him at his word. Puzzling as it is.

Sad, very sad. All over a hunk of dirt and rock, the significance of which may or may not have ever existed in reality.

Well Lynda, we should really get to the bottom of this.
All over Phoenix sounds pretty serious.

When did you hear about all this ?
Friday, Saturday, or Sunday.... and about what time ?

There are three Wayne's who post to these topics.
Wayne Spencer (me), Wayne Tuttle (Rendezvous organizer and TV star), and Wayne (tie my pe__er to the tree) Mickelson (aka babymick).
As far as I know, Mick has always been a no-show at the get together, but there might be one more Wayne in the community (local), who does attend.
I recall someone pointing him out to me a few years ago, but I don't remember what he looked like.

 

[Oroblanco]

Wayne,

Always wondered about that article. No mention of Jacob Waltz, even though it's often said that he was, somewhat famous in Phoenix, along with his having a rich gold mine in the Superstitions.

Take care,

Joe

Isn't this a bit like the three blind men describing the elephant again? Those who knew Waltz in the last years of his life, knew a different man than those who knew him as a younger man. I think this would hold true for most people including you and me.

Old wrote

<snip>The "news" of the campfire stores rocketed back here within 24 hours of the event and didn't stop for several days and from different directions. Seemed to be quite the buzz of Phoenix town. Are they lying?? What's the motive for that? For what purpose? I don't see any. From unrelated sources? If it was to get a laugh out of my husband, they succeeded. He doubled over laughing on hearing "THAT news". I guess I should be insulted about that too, but its too funny not to laugh. Central casting sure missed the mark on that one.

There is more than one "Wayne" in this event. But; the one posting here knew better. Or should have. He pleads innocent and uninformed. If I heard it almost the same day and it was told as the buzz of the camp by more than one individual totally unrelated, that's a hard one to reconcile. But; I'll take him at his word. Puzzling as it is.

Sad, very sad. All over a hunk of dirt and rock, the significance of which may or may not have ever existed in reality.

Taking the last part first, I fail to see anything sad about this, nor that whether the hunk of "dirt and rock" ever existed. If one is happy believing it never existed, more power to you, if otherwise, likewise. Most legends have a basis in fact. If it never existed, why are we here discussing it?

As to the rest, it sounds like the old game of "I've got a secret" for I have no idea what 'campfire tales' are being referred to, much less what was said. And yes there are indeed several Waynes, perhaps at least five in the LDM community that I know of. The four already mentioned and one other whom I met only once and cannot recall the last name. Anyway if these 'campfire tales' are so salacious, how can you be certain that it was even talking about you personally? There are other female Dutch hunters after all, including here on this forum and on other treasure forums.

Wishing you all a very Happy and prosperous New Year!

 

[Cubfan64]

I think it is only "fishy" if you are under the belief that Kochera only found the one ore sample during his 17 years of going into the Superstitions..I believe he was talking about the ore samples he and his son (who had just come home from a tour in vietnam) picked up during that trip and showed them to crazy jake when they met him in early 1974 ...and no they weren't very impressive compared to other ore samples he had collected during his many trips into those mountains.

You're absolutely correct in your statement Grandma K, and I should have stated that in my post. If he was talking about a different ore or set of ore samples than the ones he and his brother found that were rich, there's nothing "fishy" to the story. It sounds like you have enough information and proof that he was talking about some other ore - I'm just not privy to any of that information so as you said, the story seems "fishy" to me is all.

 

[Old]

Mr. Oro,

I wrote you a reply but thought better of it. Perhaps another time. This is a time to reflect but be hopeful of better things to come.

Wishing you and yours a Happy and rewarding New Year.