Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[Oroblanco]

Marius you said a mouthful there - are we all talking about the same LDM clues? Clearly not - and I doubt we could find three treasure hunters that are.

Wayne - amen to that. It is one of the good reasons to not even bother looking in that canyon due to the number of mines and miners that were active there while Waltz was still alive and surely had to know about it.

Old - amen to your statement there too, for if a person has found a rich mine that is loaded with gold, does it really matter if it was THE lost Dutchman's mine? I sure would not care!

Joe - have to say amen to that on Apache Jack too. Plus his description of the black quartz with gold "...like stars in the night sky." are very unlike the ore used for the famous matchbox. I am convinced his 'mine' had nothing to do with Waltz.

Please do continue,

 

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[PotBelly Jim]

I am wondering , we read the same LDM clues ? Because if are not to be taken in consideration , then the LDM is everywhere anyone likes to be in the Supes .
But wait ! Now , after more thinking , I believe the Pit mine is the LDM . For sure it is !

Marius, I enjoy your humor! What you said also kind of struck home.

I’m not an expert on the LDM or any other lost treasure. Only a hobby. I do consider myself somewhat experienced in being lied to. For most of my life, my job required involvement with communist-bloc defectors, “intelligence sources”, narco-traffickers, and after 9/11, “terrorists”. I had to take their words, possessions, electronic devices, biometrics, site exploitation, etc., and try to figure out what was true, and what wasn’t. I learned some things along the way, mostly when I failed, or my assumptions were later proved wrong by evidence. Based on these experiences, and not on my searching for any lost treasure, I offer this simple advice: Don’t assume any clues that exist in the public arena are true, until they are proven to be so. So far as I know, that hasn’t happened yet and may never be verifiable if it does. We can often times learn things from false clues if we have a fairly good understanding of who/what/where the clue originated from, and what motivated them.

There’s a roughly 3-stage interrogation process when someone is trying to hide something. Although we can’t interview the people involved back then, I believe one can apply this technique when evaluating information obtained from old sources on lost mines:

1) The first time you ask someone a question, they’ll say they don’t know what you’re talking about.
2) When you present them with a little evidence to the contrary, they’ll say “Oh, that…I know what you’re talking about now…you don’t want me, you want that other guy over there.” If they slipped up, they will try to explain the information away, often convincingly.
3) When you later present them with a lot more evidence to the contrary, and they’ve been cornered, they will either admit some version of the truth or start lying their faces off.

After that, one must rely on studying their known actions, link analysis, and their motivation for hiding the truth. Although it can take years, eventually their deceptions can often lead to the truth despite their efforts at hiding it. It’s also possible to finally get what they know through financial or other reward.


I’m afraid there is very little documented evidence to the LDM story that can be examined as fact. A gentleman that posts here on occasion provided that evidence for public consumption sometime before 1976. Most LDM books and articles since then include some or all of it. There is a little more circumstantial evidence available as well. From the available evidence, we are all forced to make educated leaps of logic. What clues each of us use is based on what each person believes is reasonable and valid based on what they know at the time. That seems to be a constant source of discussion, which is why a lot of us are reading these forums. That’s all good, and I enjoy hearing everyone’s point of view. I don’t know who’s right or wrong. All I’m saying is those clues we all have may not be what they appear to be on the surface, and I can only rely on my own personal experiences for that belief. I offer it in the hopes it can help in some way with your search. Best, Jim

 

[markmar]

Jim

My main research is not based in clues , but in maps decrypting . This is my forte . Now you will tell how the maps connected to the LDM and Peralta mines are all copies and maybe are fake . Some could be but not all .
So , I find first the spots based in maps , photos , aerial images , etc. , and after I connect clues , stories , fairy tales , etc. that match to these spots . You would be surprised but the results are 99-100% accurate .

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim

My main research is not based in clues , but in maps decrypting . This is my forte . Now you will tell how the maps connected to the LDM and Peralta mines are all copies and maybe are fake . Some could be but not all .
So , I find first the spots based in maps , photos , aerial images , etc. , and after I connect clues , stories , fairy tales , etc. that match to these spots . You would be surprised but the results are 99-100% accurate .

Marius,

Many of those stories and maps are products of reverse engineering. Those with familiarity with the Superstition's and their legends can write you all the evidence you want.

As for "Apache Jack", here's one story:

Matt Longley - Apache Jack

Not the kind of man who's word you could rely on. Would you agree?

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Doc4261]

And to think just about everyone missed the best clue of all....where Jacob told Julia an Rhiney that when they got to his mine, they would be rubbin shoulders with those who had been filing claims and digging up the place for the past several years.

never heard of this , where was this stated?

 

[markmar]

never heard of this , where was this stated?

At the Pit mine camp

 

[Doc4261]

At the Pit mine camp

Well I just read it hear. If its on the internet it must be true.

 

[markmar]

Well I just read it hear. If its on the internet it must be true.

Of course .

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim

My main research is not based in clues , but in maps decrypting . This is my forte . Now you will tell how the maps connected to the LDM and Peralta mines are all copies and maybe are fake . Some could be but not all .
So , I find first the spots based in maps , photos , aerial images , etc. , and after I connect clues , stories , fairy tales , etc. that match to these spots . You would be surprised but the results are 99-100% accurate .

OK, I got it buddy...and I did like your explanation of the Waltz map, once you explained your theory it was, as you said, simple to understand, but I wouldn't have thought to look at it like that before you pointed it out...

At the Pit mine camp

Well played, point made

never heard of this , where was this stated?

Behold...the birth of another clue...Well done! Ten bucks to the first one of us that finds it in a new book or on another website...15 bucks if it's translated into German first

 

[somehiker]

never heard of this , where was this stated?

That's the problem Doc....it never was until I brought it up.
But the presence of all those claims along that same ridge,and on both slopes during the 1880-1893 time frame should have been something Waltz would have been well aware of. Seems to be something no-one promoting the pit mine as the LDM wants to talk about, although territorial newspapers and gov't reports of the day did cover the prospects and the principals involved in various claims from Flagstaff down to the border with Mexico, including those all around Pinal. Lots of stuff online to read through, if you're interested and have the time.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Waltz is claimed to have said he only returned to the mine once or twice. If that's true, the catclaw slowly choked to death any trail or sign of an entrance. Waltz only ducked in and loaded up a few sacks of ore and ducked right back out again. In his time, there was no real working of a mine. Not saying that's what happened, but it's a possibility. If the old shaft was used as a cache, there would have been little for anyone to notice. It's not like that ridge was ever Grand Central Station like.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Wayne,

Waltz is claimed to have said he only returned to the mine once or twice. If that's true, the catclaw slowly choked to death any trail or sign of an entrance. Waltz only ducked in and loaded up a few sacks of ore and ducked right back out again. In his time, there was no real working of a mine. Not saying that's what happened, but it's a possibility. If the old shaft was used as a cache, there would have been little for anyone to notice. It's not like that ridge was ever Grand Central Station like.

Take care,

Joe

May I ask where this statement originated? Several sources state that Waltz made annual trips to the mine every winter until his age made it very difficult to do.

Actually this is one of the questions that are not possible to prove, for how many trips Waltz had made we have only the statements from other people. I suspect that assertion to only a couple of trips is very likely to the Peralta/Ludy mine, not Jacob Waltz.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

That's the problem Doc....it never was until I brought it up.
But the presence of all those claims along that same ridge,and on both slopes during the 1880-1893 time frame should have been something Waltz would have been well aware of. Seems to be something no-one promoting the pit mine as the LDM wants to talk about, although territorial newspapers and gov't reports of the day did cover the prospects and the principals involved in various claims from Flagstaff down to the border with Mexico, including those all around Pinal. Lots of stuff online to read through, if you're interested and have the time.

SH - I was wondering if you were gonna clear that up, or just leave it out there to see what happened I would say the ridge might have been crawling with miners well before that, perhaps as soon as 1874, which was just ONE of the problems I had with the Pit mine being the LDM...Gonna work on the timeline of all the events we know to be fact and see where it leads me...

 

[BlackLine]

When did Herman Petrasch give up the search? Thank you in advance.

Marius I respectfully disagree with your translation of that particular clue. It can be read differently, and I would propose more accurately as this:

Von meiner lagerstatte wen du im sattel sitz kannst du in ferne im suden durch ein loch vom Berg sehen.

From my camp, where you sit in the saddle, you can see far off in the south through a hole in the mountain.

Sit in the saddle, as in sitting on your horse or mule. This implies a higher viewpoint than standing on the ground.

Please do continue:

Lagerstätte is an geological word in german for deposit
Lager is the normal word for a campsite
there are many mistakes in spelling the words

 

[markmar]

The irony is , how Waltz looking at the Casa Caverna ( the roofless two rooms house in the mouth of a cave ) across the ravine , didn't know the importance of that spot . Didn't know how was used in at last five maps as a point of reference . For some maps was the Alpha and the Omega , so to speak .

 

[cactusjumper]

Faced memories....

May I ask where this statement originated? Several sources state that Waltz made annual trips to the mine every winter until his age made it very difficult to do.

Actually this is one of the questions that are not possible to prove, for how many trips Waltz had made we have only the statements from other people. I suspect that assertion to only a couple of trips is very likely to the Peralta/Ludy mine, not Jacob Waltz.

Roy,

I always try to return to the written words of those who were closest in time and to the people actually involved in the events. For me, that would be Ely and Bark.

It's fairly easy to see that Waltz only went back to the mine once after his partners death. From the Back Notes we have this:

"Old Jake said that he had been to the mine but once since he left it and came to Phoenix and that was fourteen years after he walled up the tunnel, ......."

Take care,

Joe

That was supposed to be under Faded memories

 

[audigger53]

The question that always bothered me about the LDM was why didn't he file a claim? He had become a US citizen and filed other claims, why not the LDM? Did hi just find a cache from when the Peraltas were mining there and above the area? I know it wasn't from the Massacure Grounds caches, those 2 were found in 1948, and not anywhere near where Waltz was supposed to have been going.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I always try to return to the written words of those who were closest in time and to the people actually involved in the events. For me, that would be Ely and Bark.

It's fairly easy to see that Waltz only went back to the mine once after his partners death. From the Back Notes we have this:

"Old Jake said that he had been to the mine but once since he left it and came to Phoenix and that was fourteen years after he walled up the tunnel, ......."

Take care,

Joe

That was supposed to be under Faded memories

Thanks Joe and I wasn't in a hurry to find out. It is an odd quote, sounds like Bark had interviewed Jacob Waltz himself doesn't it?

I don't throw out the pioneer interviews, it's quite possible that some of the old timers being interviewed had known Jacob Waltz while he was alive, and also Bicknell and John D Mitchell had interviewed with Julia and others like Poston. Bark and Sims are certainly among the closest to Waltz, but others may have been even closer.

One other thing, but it sounds like we are back in the problem of the blind men describing the elephant again, for Bark seems to be indicating the two trips, quote after walling the tunnel, which leaves wide open the question of how many trips Waltz had made prior to the walling up job. Looking only at the very last years of Waltz's life, I wouldn't doubt that it was not more than a couple of trips. But this leaves many years of time open to the question.

Please do continue, sorry for the side track.

 

[Oroblanco]

Lagerstätte is an geological word in german for deposit
Lager is the normal word for a campsite
there are many mistakes in spelling the words

Well that makes for an even more interesting translation possibility, as in he is saying "from my DEPOSIT (aka CACHE, or Mine perhaps?) lets see how that works out in Anglo:

Von meiner lagerstatte wen du im sattel sitz kannst du in ferne im suden durch ein loch vom Berg sehen.

translation:

From my DEPOSIT <or cache, or perhaps mine?> where you sit in the saddle, you can see far off in the south through a hole in the mountain.

This would seem to be a very close parallel to one of the popular Waltz clues, namely (and I am paraphrasing from memory, not directly quoting)

'From above my mine, you can see a pointed peak to the south.'

Interesting! Thank you!

Please do continue,

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I’ve always had reservations about the Rogers Dist. being the area of the LDM due to the other mining activity in the area during the timeframe Waltz might’ve been there. Many other members of this forum have expressed the same.

I’ve taken a look at what evidence I have on-hand, to establish a timeline in order to determine whether or not the Pit mine area was occupied by other miners, precluding Waltz from working the area.

Worst case scenario, Jacob Waltz would have had 4 years to prospect, locate, and process ore from any area in the Rogers mining district without interference from miners associated with the location of the Silver Chief and creation of the Rogers District. Best case scenario, he would have had 8 years to do so.

The beginning of this time frame is based on his last known mining claim filed in 1865 (Walker Dist.), and the next official record, of his being on the census in the SRV in 1870. I have no idea where he was during this five year timeframe…I realize authors have said he was in SRV in 1868, but I have no evidence on-hand to prove he was. Perhaps someone reading this has actual evidence for this timeframe. So I went with 1870-1874 as being worst case, 1866-1874 being best case. (1874 end-date based on Roger’s et al. Silver Chief claim in 1875).

Related, we also have factual evidence that Jacob Waltz claimed three mines in the Walker District within a 2-3 year time-frame after arriving from CA. Comparatively, worst-case, he had 4 years to find 1 mine in the Supes.

Take what you will from the above…personally, unless other evidence comes to light, I’m no longer worried about this area being a candidate for the LDM or caches. Best, Jim