Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

Here's a few photo's of where I was a few weeks ago. I saw a sign about a Massacre of Peralta's while going through the town of Reserve. Reserve was a Spanish town that was attacked by Indian's with only one family surviving the slaughter. The San Francisco River I believe. In a few of the photo's you can see a white rock spire or needle sticking up in the vast wilderness. This was east of Reserve where the forest is located a bit south. I have some unknown history of the area in a not so published book left in the cabin I bought near there. I'm going there again for new years I'll see If I can scan or snap a photo of a few pages of that fantastic book.

 

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Hi Paul,
I seem to remember you posted that picture sometime back. If not; here’s one I have that is similar. Same view, just taken a little south of the angle of your picture, as I recall. I posted this picture a month or so back. Few picked up on the significance of the location. Oh well <g>.

Also a shot of the dense cover in the ridge line path in today’s time frame. Kinda thorny and unforgiving.

needle3.jpg

ridge line brush2.jpg
 

Paul

IMO , the " gunsight " view from the Waltz drawing is the " low valley to the west " from the German clues .

gunsight image.jpg Waltz%20sketch.png
 

Joe

With the " gun sight " view , you all make the same mistake . And is how the " gun sight " is not a skyline of a ridge ( which is missed in the drawing ) , but the relief of the ground which is under the skyline of a ridge .
The skyline of the ridge in the Waltz drawing is missed intentionally , to show the correct direction which the peak would be recognized like it is in its whole dimension ( with its base ) . From what direction the base of the peak is higher to the left and lower to the right ? Simple , isn't ?

Of course you can believe what you want , but every map has a coded meaning which a real treasure hunter should to decrypt .
 

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With Waltz having said Weavers Needle was visible from a place only a short distance above his mine, and his drawing does illustrate such a view as through both a " gunsight" and from a higher point of reference, it should be obvious that the shape of Weavers Needle as seen from above the "pit mine" is wrong, and opposite to what he remembered it to be.
 

somehiker said:
With Waltz having said Weavers Needle was visible from a place only a short distance above his mine, and his drawing does illustrate such a view as through both a " gunsight" and from a higher point of reference, it should be obvious that the shape of Weavers Needle as seen from above the "pit mine" is wrong, and opposite to what he remembered it to be.
Click to expand...

IMO , the Waltz drawing is not a view from above his shaft mine , but from below his mine . Also , I believe the shape of the WN is only symbolic ( to know for what are we looking for ) and has not any relation how it would be recognized from that point .
There exist a clue attached to this drawing , and a part of this clue says :

LDM shaft clue.jpg

I don't think from the apex of the ridge above the Pit mine has any arroyo to go up . Maybe a ladder to Heaven .
Also , if you read the whole clue , there exists a very important detail , which shows the exact side of the La Sombrero you have to go in regards with the shape of the peak from the Waltz drawing .
 

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Howdy folks, happy Sunday to everyone.
Some things I wonder about the "Waltz" Map:

1. Is of unproven provenance (sorry for the word mangling);
2. What we are seeing today, is likely a tracing...Don't think a sketch from that era would reproduce in stark black and white;
3. Is said to be one of many Waltz made to describe steps to locate his mine or cache...where are the others...is this the last step in the process;
4. Is said to be a reproduction, from memory, by R. Petrasch...not the original...would R.P. have remembered how to accurately reproduce every detail;
5. Historians thought Billy the Kid was left-handed...I still see many photos obviously reversed in history books...did this map come out of a book;

Just some food for thought...Best, Jim
 

Often times folks jump to wrong (or incomplete) conclusions by taking a little piece of information and thinking its the whole story. Such may be happening here.

The picture I posted is not taken FROM the pit mine. Its taken ON THE WAY to the pit mine from the South headed generally North. The location of the pit mine is roughly a mile distant from this photo site. The purpose of the photos was two fold. To show Weaver's Needle west of and behind two intervening ridge lines and generally at a parallel height. The second photo was to show how incredibly dense the cover is coming in from that direction.

Can you find gunsight views along that path? Absolutely. There is one shown in the photo. There are others evident from the shape of the landscape further North. Means little in the grand scheme of things. As Joe says correctly they are abundant throughout the range.

As to the dense nature of the growth as it relates to Waltz' time; that speaks more to soil type, elevation and water capture of the overall area. Waltz tells us (if you can trust any of the things attributed to him) the CANNON he traveled was densely overgrown, nothing about a ridge line being so. By my reading Waltz came in (most times) from the North, not South. Although he traveled both ways by some accounts.

Here (I think) we need to think about cattle and sheep. Cattle and sheep is what kept the ridge line (somewhat) clear. Are there cannon routes in the area that cattle and sheep would have been mostly prohibited from grazing by the difficulty to access them? Yeap; kinda think there are. Could these be the rough path Waltz talked about???? The fact that the Wilderness prohibits grazing and we have a virtual "bloom" of tangled brush in the cannons and the ridge line, to me, is instructive. To me, that speaks to soil type and naturally occurring vegetation. Is the spot right to support the occurrence of heavy vegetation in protected areas? Yeap; I think it is. Nothing more than that. But it does seem to rule out other areas where such is not the case. To each his own.......nothing wrong with that. Your guess is as good as mine. Just giving you some of my thoughts to ponder.

I can go on and discuss the difference I find between Waltz's two mines in the area, the Quartzer and the Placer. The stores have become blurred between the two until they have meld into one. They are different and have different clues to each's location. I'll save that for another time. Although I think I've touched on that before.
 

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Bill Riley said:
Here's a few photo's of where I was a few weeks ago. I saw a sign about a Massacre of Peralta's while going through the town of Reserve. Reserve was a Spanish town that was attacked by Indian's with only one family surviving the slaughter. The San Francisco River I believe. In a few of the photo's you can see a white rock spire or needle sticking up in the vast wilderness. This was east of Reserve where the forest is located a bit south. I have some unknown history of the area in a not so published book left in the cabin I bought near there. I'm going there again for new years I'll see If I can scan or snap a photo of a few pages of that fantastic book.

...SNIP...

​
Click to expand...

Hi Bill...I really like that area, Milligans Plaza back in the day, wasn't it? Anyway, would love to see pics of the manuscript! Take care, Jim
 

I am wondering , we read the same LDM clues ? Because if are not to be taken in consideration , then the LDM is everywhere anyone likes to be in the Supes .
But wait ! Now , after more thinking , I believe the Pit mine is the LDM . For sure it is !
 

markmar said:
I am wondering , we read the same LDM clues ? Because if are not to be taken in consideration , then the LDM is everywhere anyone likes to be in the Supes .
But wait ! Now , after more thinking , I believe the Pit mine is the LDM . For sure it is !
Click to expand...

Yer catchin on Marius.
Why bother wasting your time looking for a legendary lost mine that has already been "found" and "cleaned out" by folks who didn't need the clues to find it.
 

There ya go Marius. Its been found many times in many different places. Sometimes in far away states. All depends on what clues someone wants to hold on to and which ones they discard. Who's to say who is right and who is wrong? Only the person(s) counting their LDM gold nuggets knows for certain. And that sure ain't me.
 

somehiker said:
Yer catchin on Marius.
Why bother wasting your time looking for a legendary lost mine that has already been "found" and "cleaned out" by folks who didn't need the clues to find it.
Click to expand...

Many of the "Lost Mines" have been found and worked without the finders knowing that it was "Lost". Lost Yuma's, Lost Adam Diggings. Most of Arizona was prospected heavily by the returning 49'ers that did not have enough money to sail around the Horn to get back east.
 

Old said:
There ya go Marius. Its been found many times in many different places. Sometimes in far away states. All depends on what clues someone wants to hold on to and which ones they discard. Who's to say who is right and who is wrong? Only the person(s) counting their LDM gold nuggets knows for certain. And that sure ain't me.
Click to expand...

Lynda

Look at my avatar which is a photo of what is depicted in the Waltz map as the " square " stone with an elongated corner and the surrounding landmarks . Take off the triangle from the map . Between the triangle and the big rock is the Waltz/Reed/Apache shaft .
 

And to think just about everyone missed the best clue of all....where Jacob told Julia an Rhiney that when they got to his mine, they would be rubbin shoulders with those who had been filing claims and digging up the place for the past several years.
 

somehiker said:
And to think just about everyone missed the best clue of all....where Jacob told Julia an Rhiney that when they got to his mine, they would be rubbin shoulders with those who had been filing claims and digging up the place for the past several years.
Click to expand...

And I believe that should be , from the past and to future .
 

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Marius,

Your avatar is way too small for me to be able to see much of anything. I'm sorry, its just a blur. Perhaps its a fantastic picture. I just can't say, cause I can't see it.

What I HAVE seen is a photo of the dog's ear located just above the Pit Mine. And the stone face nearby. They are compelling. Along with other very compelling evidence in the area. Not sketchy abstracts that might resemble something if viewed in the right light at the right time of year. They are clear and obvious. Exactly what that we are told would be there from long ago. They all show on GE. I know you set great store by that. Check it out. Its there. What does it all mean??? I dunno.

Those photos came from someone who is a trusted source by many. His initials are DL. Perhaps Joe, Paul and Stroker can chime in. I'd suspect they have seen them too. Joe, to a certainty. Neither DL nor they have any reason to make things up. DL had every reason to know every rock and monument out there. And; document them faithfully without bias.

Here's what we do know. This site was worked lightly in the 50's and worked again heavily in the late 90's. Perhaps just a lucky find that has nothing to do with Jacob Waltz. These latter folks worked in the heat of the summer to a 100' something level. Against all odds of arrest and imprisonment, extracting and secreting away something. I don't think it was silver. Do you?

Is it the LDM??? I really don't know. But its the best candidate so far. But; that advice is worth just what you paid for it <g>. Absolutely nothing.
 

markmar said:
Jim

I looked at the map Joe posted , but didn't make the " click " to me . There are many reasons I'm not interested in that area . One of these reasons is how the area in Joe's map don't fits with the route and clues that gave Waltz to Julia , Holmes and others . Another reason is how the horse head clue which is close to the LDM , is in another place . Even the Kochera/Haywood map is for another region .

John Reed said how when he and his father uncovered again the LDM in 1888 , they saw in the shaft bottom some drift tools and other minning stuff . This description fits with what Apache did when covered the shaft in 1882 . When Waltz came to the shaft after 1882 , he realized the shaft/incline was covered , and continued to work the " placer " which was a short distance below the shaft . When Waltz decided to cover the mine , this mine was not the shaft but the placer which became a little hole/tunnel in the ground .

Read what Apache Jack said about the shaft and the placer ( blue colour ) :

" ... the Apaches decided to hide their mine in 1882. They decided that the only way to protect their secret was to conceal it in such a manner that only the Apaches would ever be able to find it. Apache Jack was a boy of twelve when the tribe set about concealing the entrance. He reported many years later, when he was an old man, that in true Indian fashion, a band of thirty squaws and two youths labored for one full moon, throwing ore and hastily abandoned tools back into the shaft. They then covered everything with stout logs, which were in turn covered with the natural caliche cement that hardens into rock. Over all, they placed another covering of dirt and surface stones to match the surrounding area. Finally, rocks were shifted around to disguise everything...>

Apache Jack further said that the Apache left a marker. In a steep-climbing arroyo high upon a mountainside where no white prospector would normally think of looking for gold, was a bright yellow ribbon of it in a narrow vein of rose quartz. It lay under towering cliffs, which overhung the whole arroyo, within plain sight of nearby Weaver’s Needle, and thinking no white man would ever venture there, the Apaches did not conceal this place. Below was the secret marker, an eight-foot high boulder hoisted upon the skyline of a ridge which, because it formed an abrupt bend in the north-south trending Needle Canyon, formed also for a few hundreds yards the only south slope. This boulder had been chiseled to look like a rampant horse’s head with mouth open, one ear laid back and with the other ear standing straight up. However, it was only so recognized against the sky when viewed from down canyon a short ways to the north. "

Text from Dutchman's Lost Mine

Also , a LDM clue says about a tunnel and above on the mountainside a shaft/incline , both rich in gold ore .
Click to expand...

Marius,

Are you aware that the Apache Jack that you are quoting was never authinticated as being the historic person he claimed to be.

Good luck,

Joe
 

Lynda,

The original pictures and story of how he found the mine has been told at a number of Rendezvous. Everyone who was there knows the source was David. It's not really a secret.

He, IMHO, is everything you have claimed......and more.

Take care,

Joe
 

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