Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[Old]

That is what a shredder is for.

Its a catch 22 for the FS. They may send the requested documents just as they appear in their files. Which is what the Act requires, unless there are national security issues which I can't imagine in this instance.

Or; they can destroy or withhold the documents in violation of the Act. If they opt for the destruction route....... Think about it. You guys would be handed an open end option to file on just about any site you wish with the "standard" of evidence in support of issuing you a permit lowered to such about an "I think so" standard. If they then deny your request you have documented evidence of them acting in an arbitrary and capricious manner regarding permits. That's the government's biggest boogy-man.

 

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[cw0909]

i was interested in the regs and forms, from the DOI, that Old is working on
here some links FYI, i think i have the right info, please correct me if its wrong

request form
FOIA Request Form

[h=3]PUBLIC LANDS: INTERIOR[/h]

Regulatory Information
Public Lands: Interior

 

[cw0909]

sorry the remove format tab didnt work

 

[Old]

The procedure and regs are the same across all departments. I at first thought Department of Interior also. Not so. Oddly enough this is US Dept of Agriculture. Forest Service is under that dept. Forest Service has its own FOIA officer.

 

[Curious_George]

Yes, I strongly suspect the pit mine is the LDM-- if not, it does not matter, as circumstantial and behavioral evidence provide strong support for the claim that a great deal (~$400 million) of high quality gold was moved out of this mine within the last ~20 years.

Was it a mined out repository for gold actually mined someplace nearby? Seems reasonable.

The fact that dutchhunter.com no longer exists (would you continue to maintain & pay for a site, if you had recently come into a hard earned golden windfall?), and several other indications based on Joe, Frank's & Gollum's comments & experiences, lead me to believe that story.

Until the folks involved write a book and record the facts (i.e., as a history, rather than self-proclaimed fiction), we just won't "know."

But this may be a case, to misquote a former Sec of Defense, where we really DO KNOW (the gold is GONE) what we don't (proveably) "know."

George

 

[Curious_George]

Re: the "true Pitt mine," who is/was "X. Xxxxx" ? (name moved at the request of another member-- apparently X. Xxxxx doesn't want his name associated with the pit mine) and what was his connection with it?

Who was the "Pitt" mine named for (other than Mr. Pitt , and what is his history with the Roger's Spring area?

What is the significance (if any) that Iron Mountain was originally named for the Irion family?

Anybody know when Jack's revised book on "The Lost Eldorado of Jacob Waltz" will be available? If I knew Jack's contact info, I'd offer to edit his MS for him-- I notice many Dutch hunters like to use, commas, a lot and, inappropriately.



George

 

[azdave35]

Re: the "true Pitt mine," who is/was "D. Leach," and what was his connection with it?

Who was the "Pitt" mine named for (other than Mr. Pitt , and what is his history with the Roger's Spring area?

What is the significance (if any) that Iron Mountain was originally named for the Irion family?

Anybody know when Jack's revised book on "The Lost Eldorado of Jacob Waltz" will be available? If I knew Jack's contact info, I'd offer to edit his MS for him-- I notice many Dutch hunters like to use, commas, a lot and, inappropriately.



George

actually..its not very appropriate to post someone's name on a public forum without their permission....i'd suggest you remove it

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Re: the "true Pitt mine," who is/was "D. Leach," and what was his connection with it?

Who was the "Pitt" mine named for (other than Mr. Pitt , and what is his history with the Roger's Spring area?

What is the significance (if any) that Iron Mountain was originally named for the Irion family?

Anybody know when Jack's revised book on "The Lost Eldorado of Jacob Waltz" will be available? If I knew Jack's contact info, I'd offer to edit his MS for him-- I notice many Dutch hunters like to use, commas, a lot and, inappropriately.



George

Curious_George,

As far as I know, the only connection D.L. had with the "Pit" mine was to photograph it.

The "Pit" mine is named for the type of mine believed to be the Lost Dutchman.

Rogers spring is a naturally occurring fresh water spring. Rancher Wm. Martin dug out the spring to improve the flow of water. He dug back into a hillside creating a sort of tunnel. He then capped the spring and used a pipe to bring water out of the tunnel to water his cattle. He walled up the tunnel to keep animals from getting in the tunnel and fouling the water. In the late 40's early 50's prospector Quentin Cox found the walled up tunnel and dug a shaft on the hill above the spring down to the spring and broke into Martin's tunnel. Cox believed the tunnel had been dug by previous miners, Mexicans or Spanish. Rancher Martin ran Cox off several times but he kept coming back. Cox wrote a manuscript about the tunnel and shaft. Later a group calling themselves HEAT got a treasure trove permit from the US Forest Service and excavated the tunnel and shaft. They found the spring that had been there all along.

Yes, Iron mountain is named for the Irion family who ranched nearby at "Top of the World". The Forest Service misspelled their name on their maps.

Matthew

 

[sgtfda]

Jack told me the other day he is re witting a few chapters. The book will be out soon. I'll post when it's out. I've seen the mock up looks interesting

 

[Old]

Mr. Roberts, what you have written is accurate.....however, its far from the whole story.

There is a spring, spring box, shaft both to the spring box and down from above forming the upper shaft. All of which have been worked and re-worked in conjunction with the spring and by Ted Cox in trying to excavate further into the cavity.

But, what is not being told is there is a much older adit and vaulted chamber associated with this location. This adit and chamber has been documented by archaeologist to pre date Anglo occupation. By mainly timber cuttings but also by mining type. It has been confirmed by archaeologists to be eligible for recognition to America's Registry of Historic locations. But yet it isn't. That, in and of itself, is telling. Don't let anyone, ANYONE, fool you into believing this is just a well or spring box location. Its far more than that. And; it IS the smoking gun to PROVE there was Spanish/Mexican mining activity well above the Gila River.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Old,

What you say may be true. It's not my story so I let the people who were involved tell it the way they see it.
I have been to the Rogers Spring site a couple of times, I've been to the "Pit mine" site also. I was at the Spring while the dig was progressing although no one was there digging that particular day. I've talked to Billy Martin and he has a much different view of what transpired.
I was at the Mesa Forest Service Office and told they didn't have anything on a Treasure Trove Permit being issued but do have record of permission being given to access and dig at the Spring to improve the water flow for wildlife and leave the site in better shape when finished. The Arizona Archaeological Society in Phoenix doesn't have any records on the excavation. They record and are involved with every dig in Arizona unless it is privately done on private land.
What you say may be true and it doesn't make any difference to me either way. I've read Quentin Cox's manuscript and personal letters and as you say he certainly did find gold bullion and several treasure chambers in Billy Martins Spring tunnel.
Quentin believed the Mexican-Spanish were mining well above the Gila River and that is a point I absolutely agree with him on.

Matthew

 

[Old]

Mr. Roberts,

I try very hard to provide special notice when I'm guessing or speculating. In this case, I'm not guessing.

Assuming the letter of the law was followed in filling the FOIA request which I have no reason to doubt was accomplished, I have in hand all permits, historical evidence given in support of the permit, Archaeology and Forest Service reports of artifacts found and their disposition, with the exception of one archaeology report yet to be sent. My comments are gleaned from those papers.

I do take issue with one of your statements about who's story this is. This is America's story. The land, the artifacts, and their meaning belong to all of us. I consider it an important story and I'm most unhappy its been kept from open access public knowledge up to this point. I do thank Mr. Feldman and his group for pursuing the matter and his expense and considerable work in the project. I wish Mr. Feldman and group all the best and hope their rewards were worth the effort.

A special use permit was issued to include a Treasure Trove provision beginning date September 1, 2004, amended to extend the termination date on three occasions, and last ending May 31, 2005. The permit identification No. is MES434.

An archaeological Monitoring report was issued by Rio Salado Archaeology, LLC dated June 14, 2005 and revised September 28, 2005.

An additional archaeological report may become available to me pending clearance of propriety interests.

My interest in this project has been from the beginning the determination of whether or not matters of historical importance were found during the excavation of this project. Whether or not gold bars, or gold laden ore were discovered interests me much less than whether or not this site yielded evidence of pre-Anglo mining activity within the area. The reports in hand confirm that indeed is the case.

 

[cw0909]

old i think the info was always there, just no one wanted/needed to make it public
for, $$ from a book, gold in the hole, my fav nunya, so then a tale or 2 starts and
collects more bigger tales along the way, tis the nature of treasure tales

Mr. Roberts,

I try very hard to provide special notice when I'm guessing or speculating. In this case, I'm not guessing.

Assuming the letter of the law was followed in filling the FOIA request which I have no reason to doubt was accomplished, I have in hand all permits, historical evidence given in support of the permit, Archaeology and Forest Service reports of artifacts found and their disposition, with the exception of one archaeology report yet to be sent. My comments are gleaned from those papers.

I do take issue with one of your statements about who's story this is. This is America's story. The land, the artifacts, and their meaning belong to all of us. I consider it an important story and I'm most unhappy its been kept from open access public knowledge up to this point. I do thank Mr. Feldman and his group for pursuing the matter and his expense and considerable work in the project. I wish Mr. Feldman and group all the best and hope their rewards were worth the effort.

A special use permit was issued to include a Treasure Trove provision beginning date September 1, 2004, amended to extend the termination date on three occasions, and last ending May 31, 2005. The permit identification No. is MES434.

An archaeological Monitoring report was issued by Rio Salado Archaeology, LLC dated June 14, 2005 and revised September 28, 2005.

An additional archaeological report may become available to me pending clearance of propriety interests.

My interest in this project has been from the beginning the determination of whether or not matters of historical importance were found during the excavation of this project. Whether or not gold bars, or gold laden ore were discovered interests me much less than whether or not this site yielded evidence of pre-Anglo mining activity within the area. The reports in hand confirm that indeed is the case.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Roberts,

I try very hard to provide special notice when I'm guessing or speculating. In this case, I'm not guessing.

Assuming the letter of the law was followed in filling the FOIA request which I have no reason to doubt was accomplished, I have in hand all permits, historical evidence given in support of the permit, Archaeology and Forest Service reports of artifacts found and their disposition, with the exception of one archaeology report yet to be sent. My comments are gleaned from those papers.

I do take issue with one of your statements about who's story this is. This is America's story. The land, the artifacts, and their meaning belong to all of us. I consider it an important story and I'm most unhappy its been kept from open access public knowledge up to this point. I do thank Mr. Feldman and his group for pursuing the matter and his expense and considerable work in the project. I wish Mr. Feldman and group all the best and hope their rewards were worth the effort.

A special use permit was issued to include a Treasure Trove provision beginning date September 1, 2004, amended to extend the termination date on three occasions, and last ending May 31, 2005. The permit identification No. is MES434.

An archaeological Monitoring report was issued by Rio Salado Archaeology, LLC dated June 14, 2005 and revised September 28, 2005.

An additional archaeological report may become available to me pending clearance of propriety interests.

My interest in this project has been from the beginning the determination of whether or not matters of historical importance were found during the excavation of this project. Whether or not gold bars, or gold laden ore were discovered interests me much less than whether or not this site yielded evidence of pre-Anglo mining activity within the area. The reports in hand confirm that indeed is the case.

Old,

Very good work. I had some of the reports sent to me, some time ago.

I believe the true story is buried in the Pit Mine. It may never be told.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[azdave35]

Mr. Roberts,

I try very hard to provide special notice when I'm guessing or speculating. In this case, I'm not guessing.

Assuming the letter of the law was followed in filling the FOIA request which I have no reason to doubt was accomplished, I have in hand all permits, historical evidence given in support of the permit, Archaeology and Forest Service reports of artifacts found and their disposition, with the exception of one archaeology report yet to be sent. My comments are gleaned from those papers.

I do take issue with one of your statements about who's story this is. This is America's story. The land, the artifacts, and their meaning belong to all of us. I consider it an important story and I'm most unhappy its been kept from open access public knowledge up to this point. I do thank Mr. Feldman and his group for pursuing the matter and his expense and considerable work in the project. I wish Mr. Feldman and group all the best and hope their rewards were worth the effort.

A special use permit was issued to include a Treasure Trove provision beginning date September 1, 2004, amended to extend the termination date on three occasions, and last ending May 31, 2005. The permit identification No. is MES434.

An archaeological Monitoring report was issued by Rio Salado Archaeology, LLC dated June 14, 2005 and revised September 28, 2005.

An additional archaeological report may become available to me pending clearance of propriety interests.

My interest in this project has been from the beginning the determination of whether or not matters of historical importance were found during the excavation of this project. Whether or not gold bars, or gold laden ore were discovered interests me much less than whether or not this site yielded evidence of pre-Anglo mining activity within the area. The reports in hand confirm that indeed is the case.

lynda...actually it wasnt kept secret...ron had a website totally devoted to the heat dig and weekly progress reports were posted...he had lots of pics and had some of cox notes posted...i'm sure he didnt put everything on the website but he gave a pretty good blow by blow of what was going on up there

 

[Old]

Old,

.......snip....

I believe the true story is buried in the Pit Mine. It may never be told.....

Good luck,

We get what we can and leave the rest to fate.........I believe all will come full circle in its own time.........

 

[Curious_George]

Agreed.. this story belongs to all interested in it, since it occurred in a Wilderness area, whether their interest is historical, treasure hunting, or other... in fact, perhaps someone might contact a nationally known writer, such as the guy who wrote 'Into Thin Air", "The Perfect Storm", "Into the Wild", etc, as it seems to be right down his outdoorsey/ adventure alley.. or maybe Douglas Preston, author of "Talking to the Ground." Both are very hands on researchers/ writers.

I don't personally know either of them, only as a reader of their work, so it won't be me.

If folks from outside Apache Junction can "read between the lines" of this & other forums, an astute researcher/ interviewer/ writer can surely uncover
and record a coherent narrative based on what is said and what is NOT being said "out loud" that's consistent with known facts, while also presenting viable suppositions-- and clearly stating the difference between the two.

Think of it.. a story involving HUGE gold treasure, (possible) collusion of at least one federal official, attempted cover up, etc. I can see that on the NY Times best seller list.

 

[cactusjumper]

Agreed.. this story belongs to all interested in it, since it occurred in a Wilderness area, whether their interest is historical, treasure hunting, or other... in fact, perhaps someone might contact a nationally known writer, such as the guy who wrote 'Into Thin Air", "The Perfect Storm", "Into the Wild", etc, as it seems to be right down his outdoorsey/ adventure alley.. or maybe Douglas Preston, author of "Talking to the Ground." Both are very hands on researchers/ writers.

I don't personally know either of them, only as a reader of their work, so it won't be me.

If folks from outside Apache Junction can "read between the lines" of this & other forums, an astute researcher/ interviewer/ writer can surely uncover
and record a coherent narrative based on what is said and what is NOT being said "out loud" that's consistent with known facts, while also presenting viable suppositions-- and clearly stating the difference between the two.

Think of it.. a story involving HUGE gold treasure, (possible) collusion of at least one federal official, attempted cover up, etc. I can see that on the NY Times best seller list.

CG,

Even better......."Cities of Gold".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Curious_George]

CG,

Even better......."Cities of Gold".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,

Excellent choice.... an even better book, in keeping with our theme.

Guess who he could hire to pack him into the SWA.. say, the east side, just 1.25 miles or so west/NW of Roger's Spring... and interview while on the ride? That would be a ride I'd like to be on!



George

 

[djui5]

I'm positive the public will never know the true story of the excavation during modern times of the pit mine. We are lucky we have the pictures we do.