Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[Roadhse2]

Forgot about it.....but yes I have one of the shake lights I keep in the glovebox of the truck...never have to worry about batteries being dead when you need it most.

I didnt buy the cheap one though, as I also wanted dependability...though I am not sure how well that has worked out as I have not used it in two years...lol

 

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[Azquester]

Hello Bill, I know what you mean about those caves, I use to do a lot of caving as a teenager. But now you couldn't drag me down into one. I shudder when I think of all the chances we took.

I did suffer one short bout of claustrophobia once while scuba diving under a wreck in the Bahamas. The wreck had settled onto a short reef, maybe two feet off the ocean floor, at about the sixty feet depth. There was just enough room to swim under it, which we did. Halfway under the wreck I started to almost panic as I thought about that old wreck collapsing down on top of me. Shot out of there in a hurry! Dive buddies later said they wondered where I was going to so fast!

Just curious about those lost cavers, what kind of lighting did they have that lasted two weeks?

It looked to be sodium carbide lamps. I believe they were cranking on some sort of flashlight too. One of them had just a simple candle.

It reminds me of my three cousins that were lost in Murphy's Cave (Part of the Mark Twain cave system in Hannibal, Mo.) on the south side of town one summer. It was an international event back in 1967 with grave finders and world renown Spelunkers taking part in the search. One Spelunker became lost for almost three weeks appearing suddenly out of the entrance with his carbide lamp.

He claimed to have seen the boys a few miles down in there where they had become lost with no light as their flashlights had given up and fell into a deep crack in the cave system. They were dead. Of course the mothers of the boys were devastated sobbing uncontrollably at the news of this. Earlier the Grave Finder the news reporters brought in said the boys were right under where he was using his dowsing L rods. So the distraught Mother's grabbed dish pans and started digging for their sons. It was a Circus for sure. I was thirteen at the time it happened. It could've been me I was the same age as Charley Hoag.

Here's an article about an Author that wrote a book about it:

Although the tragedy that occurred in Hannibal on May 10, 1967, has never been solved, Charles (C.W.) Stewart decided to write a book about the disappearance of three young boys, who were never found. His book is titled, “A Sorrow of the Heart, the Story of Hannibal’s lost three little boys.”​

Craig Dowell, 14, William Hoag, 10, and Joe Hoag, 10, disappeared between 4:20 p.m. and 5 p.m. on May 10, 1967, on Hannibal’s South Side.​

They were presumed to have died in Murphy’s Cave in a cave-in that occurred during the construction of state Highway 79, because they had told people they were going to explore a cave near the highway project.​

On the day they disappeared, the boys had told firefighters at a local fire station that they intended to enter Murphy Cave. They were last seen near a cave, carrying flashlights and a shovel.​

Their disappearance brought hundreds of spelunkers to Hannibal to search the caves. The futile search continued for 38 days.​

Stewart explained his book was written because he was not aware that any book about this had been published. “I was surprised no one else had written it,” Stewart said.​

“I was about 25 when it happened. I have always been interested in the story. I started collecting information when it happened.” He was living in Quincy, Ill., at the time.​

“I had no idea when I started this project I would ever live in Hannibal,” he said. However, Hannibal is now his home, which made it easy for him find people with whom to discuss the boys’ disappearance.​

http://charleyproject.org/cases/h/hoag_joel.html


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=990DE2DC163FE53BBC4B52DFB366838C679EDE


​

 

[Azquester]

I found some more about the missing boys.

This cave has a circle and an Arrow painted on the wall. But is was filled with mud and the rest of the system inaccessible from the newly discovered entrance. Most of the cave systems were used as root cellars underneath houses right from the basements in my home town. They used them for storage and air conditioning back in the days before there was any. Speculation grew as time went on about where the boys actually went when someone claimed to have seen them in St Louis. I was asked by many because of my caving skills back then if I knew where they would likely be.

I said if they went into the Murphy cave system it was one of the most difficult systems to navigate and that you could become lost real easy. I said the entrances in the rooms with exits all looked identical and if you didn't mark your way in you would never find your way out. The cave systems are vast back there and not all of them have been mapped especially Murphy's Caves. We used to practice in the old Lime caves which were man made but sometimes linked into the other vast systems under the whole town. It's speculated that anywhere in the town if you dug deep enough you would run into the system so it was literally under the entire city.

I never made a search for the boys myself after the incident my Father wouldn't let me go near caves anymore. I was only about 12-13 at the time but I remember it because during the search was the first time I ever rode a large Motorcycle from my Fathers Dealership. It was a brand new 1967 Triumph Bonneville 650. My Dad wanted me to take him to the downtown Bar for a meeting with his Buds. I was excited because up until then I had only ridden small 50cc Harleys and Suzuki's. But I would always beat his buddy's on their Harleys in a back yard race around our home made circle track.

We went there to brain storm about where my cousins might have gone to besides murphy's cave as they all knew I was very into exploring caves and unknown area's no one would go to like in old abandoned Plantation Mansions and surrounding slave quarters. Sometimes the Mansions would have caves underneath them used as a root cellar. I don't know how many antiques I held in my hands back then that are worth a fortune today. We just thought it was old junk.

The crowd at the tavern wanted to ask me about the boys so we talked a bit while it began to rain outside. My Dad was to drunk when we were about to leave so he asked me again to drive home on the Triumph 650. He called all his friends out to witness me starting the Bonneville which I thought was strange. It wasn't until I hit the kick starter I realized why. It kicked back and threw me about five feet off the bike as it was wet! The had a good laugh on me. haha

No trace of the boys was ever found just the one Spelunker that claimed to have seen them deep in the system. That Spelunker became lost in the cave system for weeks and finally made it out. I think he gave up spelunking after that. I remember it because right before that a few of my other cousins were killed when they jumped into a small pond to go swimming and it had a huge nest of water Moccasins that literally attacked and bit them hundreds of times before they could get out so they died in the pond filled with Vipers.


My Dad was always on my tail about swimming in Bear Creek which was always swollen from rains. We would jump from the supports of the old covered bridge into the raging racing brown muddy water instantly taking us to speeds over 30mph. If you didn't find an eddy for getting out you would be swept away and couldn't get out until you hit a bridge or tree hanging over the creek. This the exact same covered bridge that Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer swam under and fished off of in the book Mark Twain wrote about the two boys adventures. The bridge isn't there anymore it was torn down. It still lingers in my memory's as being one of the adventures we would all go do on lazy summer afternoons.



Rafting was also in our blood we found an old telephone pole raft one time and spent days getting it into the creek only to find out the rains had swollen it over the banks. After the launch everyone but my brother Jack and I jumped off the raft being to afraid to hang in there. I Brother Jack couldn't swim and I was not that good a swimmer either. We realized we were in trouble when we couldn't get the raft to stop even though we had a very heavy rope almost two inches thick. It took tree branches and what ever we attempted to lasso for an anchor until we spotted a tree that was parallel with the top of the swollen creek so we grabbed onto it and I wrapped the rope around a large branch only to se it snapped like a twig. My brother and I climbed onto the tree branch with the help of the other boys that bailed off the raft when we launched and had been chasing along the bank of the swollen Bear Creek to see if we could make it out.

As we were clinging to the tree and pulling ourselves up I had a hunting jacket on that had filled the game pockets with water so I was having a hard time getting out. As my brother and I struggled to gain a foot hold we watched in horror as the raft we had worked so hard to get into the creek hit a bridge about 300 feet down from us and busted up into hundreds of pieces disappearing under the bridge which the water was all the way to the top of the road bed.



There was even speculation the boys had been abducted by one of the many flying saucers always spotted following the Mississippi River!




Hoag,Bill and Joey Howell,Craig May 10 1967 (Porchlight International for the Missing & Unidentified)

 

[markmar]

Nice story Bill !

I believe how in ever little dangerous we do , we need a big dose of luck . The knowledge and precaution don't work very well anytime in the fields when we have to collaborate with other natural agents . For this the most people who do some dangerous job or just for superstition , carry with them an object that they believe how give them luck .
For example , i always carry with me in the mountains my lucky Greek rosary/kombolois ( in the picture below ) made from howlite turquoise . Until now it works very well .



It changes colour in accordance with the light .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Markmar (Marious) -- Until now it works very well .untill now.? Untill now ? ya mean since you have been associating with Dutch / Tayopa hunters ??

Now about that introduction to the lovely Gick dancing girls ?

 

[nobodie]

No, it's not.

 

[somehiker]

No, it's not.

I agree nobodie.

 

[markmar]

No, it's not.

It's not what ?

 

[somehiker]

It's not what ?

Not the LDM

 

[Azquester]

If the Pit mine has that tunnel underneath it there should be some high gold values in micron still in the ore that runs through it don't you think?
If the Pit is now filled we still have the Tunnel of Jacob talked about? What about the caches across from the Pit? The Waltz Cave?

When I was A young boy I practiced caving in long drainage pipes some as small as 18 inches. Today you can go to school for diving in small drainage pipes with about zero visibility. Those guys are tough. They go into old flooded mines and down under damns. Even into the dreaded CAP canal tunnels or oil pipes.

Those are the guys that come to your rescue when you need them though and we should all give them thanks for being there when you do make a stupid motorist mistake.

As far as the cave my cousins went missing in it couldn't be the LDM.

Or could it?

I know Jessie James stashed loot in those caves back in Missouri and I know ELDO sees the connections.

 

[markmar]

Not the LDM

I agree too

 

[Weaversneedle]

Not the LDM

And just how do you know this?

 

[cactusjumper]

It's always encouraging to get confirmation from outer Mongolia. Happens to me all the time.

Joe

 

[markmar]

Joe

Don't be bad boy . The Pit mine don't fits with any Dutchman's clue . Tell me one that fits . You have found a hole with gold tracings and you have charged to it about all the Superstitions lost mines . This reminds to me like after the Waltz death when he was charged ( unofficial ) of about all the murders which have been occured in the Superstitions since he appeared in Phoenix until his death .

 

[Weaversneedle]

Joe

Don't be bad boy . The Pit mine don't fits with any Dutchman's clue . Tell me one that fits . You have found a hole with gold tracings and you have charged to it about all the Superstitions lost mines . This reminds to me like after the Waltz death when he was charged ( unofficial ) of about all the murders which have been occured in the Superstitions since he appeared in Phoenix until his death .

Waltz was never charged with murder

 

[markmar]

Waltz was never charged with murder

I wrote " unofficial " . Like some tell how the Pit mine is the LDM . Rumors .

 

[Not Peralta]

Markmar (Marious) -- Until now it works very well .untill now.? Untill now ? ya mean since you have been associating with Dutch / Tayopa hunters ??

Now about that introduction to the lovely Gick dancing girls ?

AmigoMe too I will bring the burro juiceNP

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

As I have said before......When XXXXX finally broke free of the brush surrounding the Pit Mine, he almost fell into the shaft. Eventually he returned to the site and went into the mine. It had been cleaned out. You have all seen the pictures he took inside.

It still remains a possibility that Waltz's mine was actually a cache, left there by someone else. He took what he needed and was afraid to do more. Who knew when the original owners might return. Who knows why it was left there, and never recovered by those who left it there. Death is the most obvious answer.

All of the "clues" attributed to Jacob Waltz are suspect. I believe most of them were created to cause total confusion and lead people away from the truth, much like what some of people who post on these sites are still doing today.

In any case, I wish you the best in what you are seeking. "Let the search become your destination"......or something like that.

Take care,

Joe

Mario,

There are many, many clues that match some of the alleged Waltz clues. I would suggest you go back through this thread and start reading from the above quote. If you have not visited the site where this information was first published, it might help you out.

One clue is all you asked for, so here it is: At the bottom of the ravine where the mine is located, there are the ruins of a stone house........Next?



Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

Don't be bad boy . The Pit mine don't fits with any Dutchman's clue . Tell me one that fits . You have found a hole with gold tracings and you have charged to it about all the Superstitions lost mines . This reminds to me like after the Waltz death when he was charged ( unofficial ) of about all the murders which have been occured in the Superstitions since he appeared in Phoenix until his death .

Marius,

Your location is one of your problems. By not being here and discussing this topic face to face with some of the people involved, you might as well be in outer Mongolia.

Here's one example: I asked the person who found and showed the Pit Mine to the folks who worked it, "was the mine sealed when you found it, like the Holmes story says?" and he said "yes".

Your research into this topic is falling way short. You need to find and read where the information was first published. Had you been following this story, you would not need to have asked the clues question.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Joe

Read this clue which is the right :

" Bicknell states: In a gulch in the Superstition Mountains, the location of which is described certain landmarks; there is a two-room house in the mouth of a cave on the side of the slope near the gulch. Just across from the gulch, about 200 yards opposite this house in the cave, is a tunnel, well covered up and concealed in the bushes. Here is the mine, the richest in the world, "

On the side and not at the bottom . And at 200 yards opposite and not half mile .
So , the real clue don't fits to the Pit mine .