Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[deducer]

lol..i knew you were a democrat...seriously deducer..i think it is you that is causing problems by encouraging people not to carry...its pretty much common sense to carry in the mountains.. you can go in there naked if you want...but dont encourage others to follow in your foolish ways...you'd feel pretty bad if someone got in trouble in there because you talked them out of arming their selves.....just because you haven't had any trouble in there doesn't mean you wont ..its just a question of time..most of us that have been around a while have all had bad times in there when we were glad we had an equalizer

I am neither a Democrat or Republican, I don't buy the two-party scam that has been fooling this country for so long. I just use a lot of common sense.

I've shot a gun plenty of time, and I know from personal experience that shooting at a moving target is much harder than at a cutout at the range. The fact is, only a very small percentage of people who have guns really know how to use them. The rest will just hurt themselves or others, by breaking the first rule of hunting: never shoot at what you can't see.

And I carry a SPOT and a Foretrex 601. Both of those, and leaving coords behind with someone, will help me in an emergency much better than shooting a gun off in the wilderness hoping that someone hears me.

Am I against carrying gun? No, and neither am I against someone who carries it that knows how to use it. I just don't think that everyone carrying is the answer to all the problems out there, and in fact may just give the person a false sense of security or confidence, and/or cause that person to become careless. That's all.

 

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[gollum]

I am neither a Democrat or Republican, I don't buy the two-party scam that has been fooling this country for so long. I just use a lot of common sense.

I've shot a gun plenty of time, and I know from personal experience that shooting at a moving target is much harder than at a cutout at the range. The fact is, only a very small percentage of people who have guns really know how to use them. The rest will just hurt themselves or others, by breaking the first rule of hunting: never shoot at what you can't see.

And I carry a SPOT and a Foretrex 601. Both of those, and leaving coords behind with someone, will help me in an emergency much better than shooting a gun off in the wilderness hoping that someone hears me.

Am I against carrying gun? No, and neither am I against someone who carries it that knows how to use it. I just don't think that everyone carrying is the answer to all the problems out there, and in fact may just give the person a false sense of security or confidence, and/or cause that person to become careless. That's all.

Hope if you ARE injured, you have a clear line of sight to the sky (not in a cave, mine, or narrow gully). I have carried a SPOT since Gen1. They all have deficiencies. SPOT also wont do crap if you get a Mohave Green chasing you (yes, they chase and bite, ask Frank).

Shooting at a moving target? If you are off trail hiking, you cant move THAT fast. Between rocks, cactus, slot canyons, etc, I wouldn't recommend running. I believe the general consensus is that Jesse Capen was running towards what he thought was his tent when he went off the cliff. Best bet if being shot at is to drop below shooters line of sight and move away from location.............or like me........SHOOT BACK! I spent 14 years shooting people whose only problem was that they wore a different uniform.

Mike

 

[PotBelly Jim]

If I were in need of assistance in the Supes or anywhere else, if I had to choose I would take the SPOT over a firearm...I would rather have both...I know plenty of people who know how to use firearms and are proficient shots at moving targets, that rarely, if ever carry a firearm when out hiking or exploring...they have confidence in their abilities and I just don't see what's wrong with that...human beings have survived on this planet out in the wilds without guns for how long? I've been shot at too many times to count, if they wanted to hit me they would have...even though armed, I don't shoot back, I don't see the point in that...I just leave the area.

 

[deducer]

Hope if you ARE injured, you have a clear line of sight to the sky (not in a cave, mine, or narrow gully). I have carried a SPOT since Gen1. They all have deficiencies. SPOT also wont do crap if you get a Mohave Green chasing you (yes, they chase and bite, ask Frank).

Shooting at a moving target? If you are off trail hiking, you cant move THAT fast. Between rocks, cactus, slot canyons, etc, I wouldn't recommend running. I believe the general consensus is that Jesse Capen was running towards what he thought was his tent when he went off the cliff. Best bet if being shot at is to drop below shooters line of sight and move away from location.............or like me........SHOOT BACK! I spent 14 years shooting people whose only problem was that they wore a different uniform.

Mike

I wear total protection Turtle Armor snake chaps every time I go off the trail- very expensive but best bang for the buck:

https://turtleskin.com/total-protection-snake-chaps.html

There are many things that can go wrong out there- that's why I never depend on just one element alone (such as just having a SPOT). I have other things, and I leave coords with another party before I go in there so if I don't report back in time, they'll come out after me.

Over the years that I've hiked the Supers, I've come to the conclusion that the best weapon you have by far, is your brain. A little common sense and caution goes a long way.

 

[azdave35]

I wear total protection Turtle Armor snake chaps every time I go off the trail- very expensive but best bang for the buck:

https://turtleskin.com/total-protection-snake-chaps.html

There are many things that can go wrong out there- that's why I never depend on just one element alone (such as just having a SPOT). I have other things, and I leave coords with another party before I go in there so if I don't report back in time, they'll come out after me.

Over the years that I've hiked the Supers, I've come to the conclusion that the best weapon you have by far, is your brain. A little common sense and caution goes a long way.

i think one of the biggest advantages of being armed is that it keeps most of the idiots from messing with you..if they see your armed most of the time they will find someone else to pick on....a friend of a friend was up in the mountains years ago.... unarmed...he was walking on a trail minding his own business when a couple bigger guys confronted him and took his food and water,,he is or was a member of this forum..not sure if he is still around or not...i agree with deducer on the fact that the supers isn't a war zone...you don't see alot of gunfights up there..the reason for that is most bad guys are bullies and cowards..they aren't going to pick a fight with a group of armed men...but they will single out a weaker man alone and give him trouble...i've also ran into a few animals out there that were pretty aggressive...mohave rattlesnakes...javelina..cougars..even had a gila monster come after me...i really dont like to carry...a gun is bulky..heavy ...but a necessary tool

 

[PotBelly Jim]

True West 1965

Here's two more old magazine articles about the LDM...or rather, a paragraph, then an article...

Some poor fella made the mistake of writing one paragraph in which he says the LDM doesn't exist...Ted Cox writes in to set him straight, and seems to be talking about the Rogers Canyon area...

Then some other guy writes an article he probably heard from some old cowboy regarding the LDM...there's reference to a buckskin "Ruth" map...most here will know which one he's talking about...then another letter that sets this guy straight...kinda like the LDM forum before there was an internet...

View attachment 1648146

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

Here's two more old magazine articles about the LDM...or rather, a paragraph, then an article...

Some poor fella made the mistake of writing one paragraph in which he says the LDM doesn't exist...Ted Cox writes in to set him straight, and seems to be talking about the Rogers Canyon area...

Then some other guy writes an article he probably heard from some old cowboy regarding the LDM...there's reference to a buckskin "Ruth" map...most here will know which one he's talking about...then another letter that sets this guy straight...kinda like the LDM forum before there was an internet...

View attachment 1648146

Thanks for that Jim! That is some great reading. I never knew the buckskin map was drawn on a scalped and dying Mexican woman's jacket. That is horrible!

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Thanks for that Jim! That is some great reading. I never knew the buckskin map was drawn on a scalped and dying Mexican woman's jacket. That is horrible!

Well...now you know

Lots of people think Ted Cox was talking about the pit mine specifically in his letter...I suspect the editors had to clean it up a bit before printing it It sure sounds to me like he's talking about the pit mine...especially the caches...is it the LDM? Who knows...everyone says the TRUE Dutchman ore can't have any silver in it...everyone says the pit mine ore has silver in it...I've never seen an assay of either, myself...

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

Well...now you know

Lots of people think Ted Cox was talking about the pit mine specifically in his letter...I suspect the editors had to clean it up a bit before printing it It sure sounds to me like he's talking about the pit mine...especially the caches...is it the LDM? Who knows...everyone says the TRUE Dutchman ore can't have any silver in it...everyone says the pit mine ore has silver in it...I've never seen an assay of either, myself...

I haven't either. Copper yes. Silver no, unless it was cherry picked ore but the Pit Mine sure has a lot of silver ore in it. Of course what do I know? Lots of people think the Pit is it, but I still don't. The Dutch Ore was very specific and special and from the five or so samples that are photographed the Pit doesn't fit!

Stuff turns up in the darndest places! It would be neat to get the Buckskin Map UV tested for blood. Always thought that was water damage but it literally could be blood soaked if that story is true and that is kinda wild. I feel sorry for that lady if it's true.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I haven't either. Copper yes. Silver no, unless it was cherry picked ore but the Pit Mine sure has a lot of silver ore in it. Of course what do I know? Lots of people think the Pit is it, but I still don't. The Dutch Ore was very specific and special and from the five or so samples that are photographed the Pit doesn't fit!

Stuff turns up in the darndest places! It would be neat to get the Buckskin Map UV tested for blood. Always thought that was water damage but it literally could be blood soaked if that story is true and that is kinda wild. I feel sorry for that lady if it's true.

Dusty, you're a good guy...don't worry about the Indian (Edit: Sorry, it was a Mexican lady) lady, it didn't happen...and I don't think this particular Ruth map is the "Buckskin map"...or I could be confused...

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

Oh it isn't but the real buckskin map could have some blood on it. It's just such a heartbreaking and compelling story. Pulls me in every time. You guys are great.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Oh it isn't but the real buckskin map could have some blood on it. It's just such a heartbreaking and compelling story. Pulls me in every time. You guys are great.

Didn't mean to play a trick on you...I thought you were being sarcastic about the Indian (Edit: Sorry, Mexican Lady)lady story...all these magazine stories are made up or based on cowboy gossip...sometimes they invent stuff out of thin air, like the Pegleg series that Desert mag did...when I get around to it, I'll post all those on the Pegleg forum(they cover several months) as definite fakes, as the editor admitted to it...

I'm trying to find my copy of the old fake Ruth map on leather...I don't think it's the same as the "Buckskin Map" but I may be confused...I've seen so many fake maps I just don't bother with them any more...anyway, there was a local guy that was selling Ruth maps and telling people they better not talk about them as they would then be charged with Ruth's murder...I have one around here somewhere...

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

Didn't mean to play a trick on you...I thought you were being sarcastic about the Indian lady story...all these magazine stories are made up or based on cowboy gossip...sometimes they invent stuff out of thin air, like the Pegleg series that Desert mag did...when I get around to it, I'll post all those on the Pegleg forum(they cover several months) as definite fakes, as the editor admitted to it...

I'm trying to find my copy of the old fake Ruth map on leather...I don't think it's the same as the "Buckskin Map" but I may be confused...I've seen so many fake maps I just don't bother with them any more...anyway, there was a local guy that was selling Ruth maps and telling people they better not talk about them as they would then be charged with Ruth's murder...I have one around here somewhere...

Wow. Jeez that's crazy. I will take a gun next time. Lol.

 

[sgtfda]

I've carried a gun since I was 2

 

[Al D]

Didn't mean to play a trick on you...I thought you were being sarcastic about the Indian lady story...all these magazine stories are made up or based on cowboy gossip...sometimes they invent stuff out of thin air, like the Pegleg series that Desert mag did...when I get around to it, I'll post all those on the Pegleg forum(they cover several months) as definite fakes, as the editor admitted to it...

I'm trying to find my copy of the old fake Ruth map on leather...I don't think it's the same as the "Buckskin Map" but I may be confused...I've seen so many fake maps I just don't bother with them any more...anyway, there was a local guy that was selling Ruth maps and telling people they better not talk about them as they would then be charged with Ruth's murder...I have one around here somewhere...

Is that indian lady story the same one as the sleeping woman?

 

[coazon de oro]

Well...now you know

Lots of people think Ted Cox was talking about the pit mine specifically in his letter...I suspect the editors had to clean it up a bit before printing it It sure sounds to me like he's talking about the pit mine...especially the caches...is it the LDM? Who knows...everyone says the TRUE Dutchman ore can't have any silver in it...everyone says the pit mine ore has silver in it...I've never seen an assay of either, myself...

Howdy Jim,

Yes, Ted was referring to the Pit Mine, in fact he reclaimed the Silver Chief as the Ridge Pit Mine. Matthew Roberts started a thread here titled "Ted Cox and the Ridge Pit Mine", which tells you all about it. The caches he was talking about however, were in caves, not mines. One was a cave with a concentrate cache, while the other was a cave with a gold bullion cache. None of those would be gold in quartz like it is assumed to have come from an empty hole in the ground.

In my opinion the cave with a gold bullion cache has to be Walter Perrine's cave of gold bars on Black Top Mesa. Walter's Grandmother who was a full blooded Chiricahua Apache, related this story to him when she was on her deathbed.

Homar

 

[Azquester]

View attachment 1648204
I've carried a gun since I was 2

Is that a Woody doll you're carrying?
Oh, I get it, you're setting up for target practice!
Don't cry about it just shoot the darn thing!

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Howdy Jim,

Yes, Ted was referring to the Pit Mine, in fact he reclaimed the Silver Chief as the Ridge Pit Mine. Matthew Roberts started a thread here titled "Ted Cox and the Ridge Pit Mine", which tells you all about it. The caches he was talking about however, were in caves, not mines. One was a cave with a concentrate cache, while the other was a cave with a gold bullion cache. None of those would be gold in quartz like it is assumed to have come from an empty hole in the ground.

In my opinion the cave with a gold bullion cache has to be Walter Perrine's cave of gold bars on Black Top Mesa. Walter's Grandmother who was a full blooded Chiricahua Apache, related this story to him when she was on her deathbed.

Homar

Hey Homar,

Yes, I remember that excellent thread. I myself can't say for sure that Ted Cox was referring to the Pit Mine in the letter he wrote to True West...but it sure seems to be...

I don't know anything about the cave of gold bars...but I have seen the cache sites...makes sense to me that was what they were, what Cox describes in his letter, etc...but I have no idea what came out of them. Cox says it was cobbed concentrates and bullion...I'm skeptical but I have to at least acknowledge it's his story and none of us outside his family and friends know for sure...The concentrates cave is the one that interests me the most...if it is what people say it is, James Rogers and/or the Hatch's probably did NOT put that there...

I have always wondered about what Herman said regarding the Spanish mines and Iron Mountain...But it makes sense to me that whatever ore body Waltz was working, or perhaps removed a cache from, would not have remained hidden for long...just opinion, but I always believed that the LDM was just old Spanish/Mexican workings, and had most likely been found relatively soon afterwards and worked.

One thing I always keep in mind regarding the Pit Mine...Ted Cox was not interested in re-working the Rogers and Randolph district silver mines...He knew exactly where every one of the Rogers and Hatch claims were...so I don't buy the story that he was unknowingly working such a mine...he was looking for a specific number of old Spanish mines...for some reason, he seems convinced that the Pit Mine was the LDM...I for one, would like to know why...

 

[sgtfda]

Howdy Jim,

Yes, Ted was referring to the Pit Mine, in fact he reclaimed the Silver Chief as the Ridge Pit Mine. Matthew Roberts started a thread here titled "Ted Cox and the Ridge Pit Mine", which tells you all about it. The caches he was talking about however, were in caves, not mines. One was a cave with a concentrate cache, while the other was a cave with a gold bullion cache. None of those would be gold in quartz like it is assumed to have come from an empty hole in the ground.

In my opinion the cave with a gold bullion cache has to be Walter Perrine's cave of gold bars on Black Top Mesa. Walter's Grandmother who was a full blooded Chiricahua Apache, related this story to him when she was on her deathbed.

Homar

Homar
How did they refine and make the gold bars?

 

[azdave35]

Homar
How did they refine and make the gold bars?

they just waved their magic wand over it