Here it is!

[swiftsearcher]

Here is a good article by an expert on the subject of silversmithing hammers. BTW, here is a portion of the article below. Notice a chasing hammer can also have a "domed head" instead of a flat head (as the one I found does). The other end is a ball. I guess this is where they look similar to a ball peen hammer!

The head of a chasing hammer will be either flat or domed on one side and have a ball on the other. I have one of each; flat and domed. They have taken me through just about everything I have wanted to do with sheet and wire. The ball end is great for putting a dimple pattern in sheet metal or on wire.

http://searchwarp.com/swa358067.htm

 

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[swiftsearcher]

I am holding the chasing hammer I bought now. It does have a flat face, as the ones in the link I provided. Also the handle is definitely the original, as it has not been replaced. I will try and get a scan up of the flat end and the part showing the handle is the original.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

CC, I went over them with my detector (some of them more than once) and never received any hits. My detector is suppose to find large caches up to 6 ft. I have found pennies at around 18 inches with it and a mine respirator at around 2 1/2 ft., so it should find a large cache at 5-6 ft. Supposedly, the caches were around 3 ft. deep. If so, there is definitely nothing there. Also, for a couple of the sites, I know the people's names who found them (so I know they are gone).

I was just wondering how far something that heavy could have sunk over such a span of time. Maybe, for the ones you don't know are gone, you should try a long probe. Just a thought.

 

[swiftsearcher]

Here is an image of the chasing hammer with the flat end showing. Also, it is definitely the original handle.

CC - I don't have the equipment to go any deeper in my searches. If you want to, you can e-mail me at [email protected] and I can take you to a couple of the cache sites sometime.

 

[DD-777]

Swifty - you say you can "handle the doubters" but you sure are quick at discounting others ideas. Once again - read the statements before shooting back with a defensive comment. The statement regarding Boone and Swift was one comparing who would be more historically significant in the eyes of the government. It had nothing to do with who was where and when and what they did. You are just reading what you want to read and drawing your own conclusions from it (remember - open mind). I never made any remark, nor did I assume you had a low IQ.

One thing I will say though - you are continually bashing other peoples comments and suggestions because you are apparently all-knowing when it comes to any subject pertaining to the mines and the finds made in the area. There are folks here on T'net that are just plain brilliant - more so than you and I can aspire to be. I value that more than anything when I'm posting a find or if I need help identifying something. NGE has been working with tools pretty much his whole life and that's a valued opinion he shares when he chimes in about hammers. While neither of us may be experts on the history of silversmith tools, I went through every page of your link (of tools) and have not seen one single hammer that looks similar to yours (as far as chasing hammers go). It looks like a good old ball-peen hammer. As far as the handle goes - how do you know with such certainty that you display, that the original handle is what's on it now? It's impossible to make such a statement! Who's to say that hammer wasn't used long after Swift was there (if it is a Swift mine)? How do you know someone wasn't making "shine" back there and that hammer was used in the construction of the still? Just because there may not be evidence of a still there, does not mean there wasn't. I have a friend who's grandfather had many sites here in the mountains of NC. He said they always looked for sites that were next to, or even IN caves themselves. When the revenuers caught wind of one site - they picked up and moved it all - never leaving a trace of what was there. That's the wonderfully mysterious nature about the woods... 8)

The hammer itself does not appear to have the original handle. There seems to be too much of a gap where the handle meets the head on the lower end. How exactly is the head attached to the handle anyway?

By the way - what kind of detector are you using that your picking off pennies at 18 inches? I gotta' get me one of those...

 

[Kentucky Kache]

There are folks here on T'net that are just plain brilliant - more so than you and I can aspire to be.

How would you know that? Isn't that the same thing you're accusing SW S of doing - assuming to know...?

 

[DD-777]

There are folks here on T'net that are just plain brilliant - more so than you and I can aspire to be.

How would you know that? Isn't that the same thing you're accusing SW S of doing - assuming to know...?
[/quote

Big difference in my statement CC than what SS has been doing. I'm not trying to attack him so you don't need to jump me about it.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

There are folks here on T'net that are just plain brilliant - more so than you and I can aspire to be.

How would you know that? Isn't that the same thing you're accusing SW S of doing - assuming to know...?
[/quote

Big difference in my statement CC than what SS has been doing. I'm not trying to attack him so you don't need to jump me about it.

Okay, but you didn't answer the question. How would you know? I'm not jumping anybody, just wondering.

 

[swiftsearcher]

Beale,

It seems after believing me a while back, you are back to doubting me. This is fine with me - just wondering why you changed your mind. After we had a couple of PM's, you stated I was correct about Swift working the Lower Mines and wished me luck, then posted this post.

Don't get me wrong, I don't care that you nor anyone else disagrees with me. Afterall, the more people who disagree, the more people that will buy my book to see what an idiot I am.



Swiftsearcher,

I wish you the best in locating the Great Cavern of the Shawnee. I hope it is heaped up with gold and silver, you deserve it for the amount of work you have put into this search. I believe you have accompolished more in the finding of Swift's Silver mines than all of the other treasure hunters for the past 220 years.

Most of my disagreements with this was my finding of other silver mines in Kentucky and conflicting the two stories. A considerable distance west of the Cumberland Gap is where I believe some other silver mines are located. I don't know if they were Swift's or some of his party but there is a lot of silver out that way. I hope to find some survey maps to help locate these mines some day? Old maps are sometimes hard to go by and I can forsee difficulties but that is what we deal with when we search for lost treasures. Best to you and yours Swiftsearcher. I have the home locations of about a dozen of Swift's Party in North Carolina. I could have found more but someone stole the deed book from the court house. There is reported to be another copy in Anson County, I may go there to look at it. I hope things work out for you and if I don't ever get down your way---------you find it all, then look me up and we will go search their homesites. Flint and Fletcher had over 16 tons of silver and gold, think about all of the rest of Swift's Party. They owned according to Swift at least eight ships that I believe were pirate ships and they carried their plunder back into NC and hid it there. I believe they have buried the largest land treasure in the US in NC. I don't know how much they could have accumulated in the Great Cavern of the Shawnee but I sure believe there is litterly tons in NC. We may one day try to recover some of that. See you around. Albert

 

[swiftsearcher]

DD, your last post is simply ludicrous! You state that NGE could tell more about the hammer and the handle being original or not from my first pic. There is no way. I am a baseball card expert (have been collecting T206's and Vintage Cards for 30 years). I can tell if a card is original most of the time from a scan, but cannot tell if it has been altered (trimmed, recolored, etc.) unless I examine it in person usually. The same could be said for telling if this hammer's handle is the original or not. I have it in person and I can tell you I have owned enough tools and been to enough flea markets in my lifetime to state it is the original handle. There are no shams holding the handle in place to the head (as one has to sham a new handle that is undersized as you two state this one is). Even though the entire handle is corroded, the metal on the head actually seems to be the same metal as on the handle. Also, there is no sign of welding either. The handle simply fits perfectly snug to the head. You said there is no way I can tell if the handle is original when I have the hammer in hand. However, you state NGE can tell this from a picture. This is simply proposterous to say the least.

Tell you what, since it worked with Beale. When it came time to put up or shut up, be didn't put up (though, he probably won't shut up either ). I will make you and/or NGE a wager. Both of you seem to think you believe the handle is not the original and the hammer was made after 1900. I will be both of you any amount of money (up to $100k again) that the handle is original to the hammer and/or the hammer is much older than 1900. Plus the loser(s) has/have to pay the expense of having tests done by a credible University that can date the hammer and come to a conclusion on the handle. I know from experience in different collectibles that nobody can ascertain a small detail such as you two state by looking at a scan (regarding the handle being replaced). I also know that even non-experts can tell more than an expert about small details of an item such as this when looking at it in person.

You say I am bashing other people. However, I am only defending my statements against the bashing from you, Beale and NGE. Am I not allowed to do this - especially when I have an object in hand and can tell more about it than you can from looking at a picture?

I have never claimed to be smarter than anyone on here. All I have claimed is what I have found. And, I have more evidence than just this hammer btw. I would again wager that I have more evidence I have found Swift's mines than anybody else - period. I have been contacted by many experts on Swift and spoken with them on the phone. It is funny that all of the Swift "experts" I have spoken with believe me when I tell them about my findings, yet you and a couple of others are worried whether a hammer is a ball peen or a chasing hammer (when they are both used for practically the same purpose in metal working). I believe why NGE has made the outrageous comment that the handle is not original is that it would prove the hammer's age, since these hammers had metal handles before the 1800's. This comment is simply outrageous. Not only are there no shaming nor damage to the head (that would have resulted if the handle was beaten in tightly), the handle is solidly attached and does not even wiggle (it is hard to find new hammers that are not made from one piece of metal that don't wiggle when pulled on). Also, use a little common sense on this one - IF the hammer had an original wooden handle as NGE has suggested, why would anyone replace it with a skinny metal handle, as it would be much easier to replace a wooden handle with a wooden handle (plus, easier to hold in your hand, as this skinny metal handle is really awkward to grip) I will probably have the hammer dated by a respected University or Society before publishing my book - unless you and/or NGE would like to take me up on my wager now??

Beale - BTW, the wager doesn't have to be for $100k - that is simply the most I could wager. Heck, I will bet you as low as $1000 if you want - PLMK (anything lower wouldn't be worth it - especially since I am saving the good evidence and pics for my book and don't want to ruin the surprise). BTW - you mention showing proof of treasure - I wasn't born yesterday.

DD - One last thing, as I just noticed your last post while I was typing. You state I am attacking, yet you aren't - I just don't get that one. TBH, we are both trying to prove our points I thought. However, if I am attacking, you must be as well.

 

[DD-777]

There are folks here on T'net that are just plain brilliant - more so than you and I can aspire to be.

How would you know that? Isn't that the same thing you're accusing SW S of doing - assuming to know...?
[/quote

Big difference in my statement CC than what SS has been doing. I'm not trying to attack him so you don't need to jump me about it.

Okay, but you didn't answer the question. How would you know? I'm not jumping anybody, just wondering.

I can make my statement almost just based on the help that most of us receive in the "what is it?" forum alone. There are folks here from all walks of life and from all different professions, each with their own little area of expertise. Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe there's just a few folks that are really great at using google. My point is this, constantly shooting down other people's ideas and suggestions is no way to learn anything. Insisting that you are right no matter what (with inconclusive proof) is not the greatest way to make a point and/or be taken seriously. As I have stated earlier, I applaud Swifty for his determination and the effort he has put forth thus far. It's great to see someone really attack their "quest"/goal in such a way - BUT - you at least have to be open (when on a public forum such as T'net) to what your fellow members want to share as well. You don't have to agree with it - but you don't have to openly shoot someone down either. I don't see it happening, but it would be great to see SS and Beale combine their extensive knowledge of the Swift mines and work together to find it all... 8)

 

[Blacksheep]

Concerning the hammer, I would agree it`s a modern ball-peen that had the original handle replaced, the close up scan actually shows the original bore for the wood handle.

Been swinging those hammers off and on for 20+ years and consider myself an expert, seen the handles break and in a pinch, metal bars get hammered into place.

Not trying to rile you in any way,shape or form but your hammer is modern.

 

[DD-777]

Hey Swifty - Just to clear the air - I nor NGE stated that we can tell for sure that that is not the original handle. It just doesn't work. Why would anyone intentionally make a hammer with such a slender handle to begin with? As you stated, it is somewhat difficult to hold. As far as your wager goes, that's just childish, plain and simple. I apologize if it seems like I have been "counter-attacking". Just stating my feelings as you are yours. I do wish you the best of luck in the completion of your quest and I look forward to your book. Try not to lose any bets between now and then though...

 

[swiftsearcher]

OK, I will have the hammer inspected by an expert of the colonial period at Colonial Williamsburg (that means I would get to meet Ralph in his neck of the woods anyway). It will be good to have an expert opinion anyway - good or bad. That way, I can include proof beyond a doubt in my book or simply omit it. I certainly disagree with people who state it is modern, as it still has as much rust on it as some of the Atocha obects when they were brought up (and I have performed a few hours of electolysis on it already as well).

DD - you have called me childish now in at least two posts. Yet, you refer to me as "Swifty". The name calling is actually childish one would think.

You do mention the slender handle. This is one reason I believe it to be a hammer than was used by Silversmiths. It is simply not "right" for heavy work, such as beating a still or driving nails - it is too thin (again, something like a Silversmith would use, while working with small amounts of silver - ie: pigs, coins).

Beale - I only brought you up b/c you came back into this discussion. If you didn't want your name brought up, I have no idea why you posted again? Also, one could prove beyond a doubt they found the rich mines as well. Again, it would take showing the landmarks Swift mentions at the rich mine in the locations he mentions them (which I can do) and showing some really high grade silver ore that came from the mine (which I plan on doing).

 

[Blacksheep]

Here`s a pic of a few that I have, the small one (with broken handle) is 12 years old, rusted simply from laying on a shelf unused, note that whats left of the handle is still "tight" in its bore, as it should be, no gaps as shown in your close-up pic.

I trust your expert will agree it is not what you believe.

 

[swiftsearcher]

BS - Thanks for posting the scans. Mine was found under a covered ledge between the waterfall and furnace rockhouse, so it was out of the elements as well. Looking at your pics, none of the heads of the hammers are as small as the one I found and definitely none look as old (of course you stated yours have been on a shelf in a building I assume). Again, since there is some question, I will have the hammer dated by a respectible orgnanization - no problem as it will be sometime before my book is at the publishers (afterall I still am searching for the great cave and middle mine, as well as planning on excavating the rich mine until we reach the ore).

I almost forgot. Someone asked what detector I am using. I am using an MP3 PRO Digital from Kellyco in FL. I LOVE it! The only time I ever received a false signal was recently at a KGC site. A couple of KGC experts told me the same thing has happened to them numerous times, so I don't feel bad with only one false signal in an area with dozens of KGC carvings and markers. The other bad feature is that it distincts metals and shows aluminum cans as silver hits. I almost had a heart attack at a Swift cache site when my detector went crazy showing silver! Turns out, it was two old beer cans from a former good friend of mine (who found a few Swift caches). He must have taken the crowns out and thrown his celebratory beer cans back in the spot!?

BTW - on another topic. I have found several great KGC markings, carvings and sites in my adventures - some real close to Swift's Principal Mines! Talking this over with a KGC expert and a person who has Swift hunted for dozens of years, he stated that the KGC not only buried treasure, but were in the treasure hunting business as well and more than likely hunted Swift's mines and caches and this is the reason I have found so many KGC signs as well.

Also, for those KGC buffs, I found a rock a little bigger than both my hands. The rock is in the shape of a perfect heart and is grey on the bottom and red on the top (all natural rock it appears). I had read Brewer's book and decided to keep the rock (the rock was found when I took my daughter and fiance' to a creek so they could find some rocks - they love picking out "pretty" rocks from creek beds). Anyway, I went under the large waterfall in this area and it had a rockhouse in behind it. The heart rock was there. I never looked at it and/or noticed anything. Last week, I had a meeting with two Swift/KGC buffs/experts. I mentioned finding the rock on the phone to one of them when they started talking about the KGC. Turns out, I have an important KGC heart marker! There were worn signs carved on the rock I had never noticed and they did, inlcuding a seven, heart, star, etc.!

 

[DD-777]

Will you be posting a photograph of this "perfect, heart shaped rock"? That would be fantastic!

 

[swiftsearcher]

I might on the KGC side. I already posted a pic of what I believe to be a KGC "vault" there. As of now, I will be posting pics of trees, markers, etc. near this "vault" however. Again, in the KGC section, as it doesn't fit this category.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

It's ALL "connected"; http://www.knightsofthegoldencircle-kgc.com/signs.htm

 

[swiftsearcher]

Rebel - that's what I have been told by some reliable sources!