Help with ID on military looking pin

[Bill_S]

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

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[Bramblefind]

"O.O.C." is the Order of Calanthe which is an associated Womens group. But they use the same symbols - including the lily and "U R" as seen in this find:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=66983.0

eta - see the "Order of Calanthe" reference has been made already. Though this badge with the UR might be new?

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Supreme Secretary Saltzman's statement about the two lengths of KoP swords: "The long narrow sword is used for parades and drills because it is easy to handle. The short stubby type is used whenever one has to be placed in a semi-permanent position, such as on the open Bible which is present at all Pythian gatherings."

TCG ~

I'm not sure how old you are, but the "Where's the beef?" joke is from a series of 1980s TV commercials ... I connected it to a member asking me "Where's the proof?"

No harm intended ... just me trying to be funny.

Take care, and please keep up the research.

SBB

 

[Dano Sverige]

SBB - I think you'll find the shoulder boards in your pic' are actually crossed poleaxes, the usual KoP symbol.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

SBB - I think you'll find the shoulder boards in your pic' are actually crossed poleaxes, the usual KoP symbol.

Thanks a million! Now I have a new word for the day ... poleaxes. And in a minute, after I look it up, I'll know just what the heck they are. Lol

SBB

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

SodaBottleBob wrote:
> No harm intended ... just me trying to be funny.

I knew that. Thus I put a wink emoticon after my comment.

I think of you as a fellow diligent "detective" in researching to discover what the pin's missing letters are, by locating an image of a complete specimen of the pin.

We now know with certainty what the swords are, and what the emblem on the clamshell-guard means -- which identifies the pin -- and that gives us a general era for the pin (absolutely post-civil-war, 1870s to as late as 1950, when the UR was disbanded).

The last remaining question is the missing letter. I believe it is most likely to be a letter, not a number, because the metal KoP (and UR) insignias often prominently display single "separated" letters (such as F C B, and U R), but not numbers.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Great! We're getting close! Now it's down to just 26 measly letters!

(But I doubt it's an X or a Z ... so that leaves 24)

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Here's a list of fraternal-type organizations that might apply ... (If it's an "O"). ? ?

AOC: American Order of Clansmen

DOC: Daughters of Columbia

DOC: Daughters of Confederacy

FOC: Fraternal Order of Colonials

KOC: Knights of Columbus

MOC: Military Order of the Cootie

MOC: Modern Order of Chaldean

OOC: Order of Calanthe

ROC: Russian Orthodox Catholic

Speaking of letters, I almost forgot I listed OOC: Order of Calanthe. But when I researched it, SoMdRecliHunter hadn't made his amazing ID yet! Thus, not finding a picture of any crossed swords related to it, I just dismissed it. Maybe it does need another going over.

SBB

 

[allan]

here is a quote from an interesting page The Uniformed Rank (UR) came into being in 1878. A great many Pythians were Civil War Veterans and some lodges formed their own military drill teams. This would in time evolve into the Uniformed Ranks, not just for the Pythians but for quite a number of other fraternal orders as well. The Pythian UR was sometimes known as the Army of the Lily. here is the page link

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/fraternalism/knights_of_pythias.htm so I bet we are looking for a militia branc that was formed before the ur and possibly kept its insignia into the formation of the UR.....maybe lol I have fallen and I can't get up ( continuation of 80's commercials memorable line's )

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Good stuff! I read that earlier but dismissed it, too. If it doesn't have an "O" a "C" or a "crossed swords" picture or reference connected with it, I usually just let it go. It's starting to look as if we have a situation where some small, bodunk lodge made their own pin that may or may not have been approved by the big boys. If that's the case, then we may never ID it. It could mean anything from a lodge reference to someone's initials.

I don't think I'm the only one wondering about that weird soldering. It just doesn't look factory made. Maybe its a homemade deal, as if someone took a crossed swords piece, like the one bramblefind posted, and then just soldered some letters on it. So here's my new guess ...

DOC = Daniel Oliver Crawford

(A one time somebody from Nowhereville, Missouri)

Unless someone has a better suggestion, the research is starting to drain me. Lol

SBB

Is that a short sword on that guy's waist?

 

[allan]

I saw a few ur guys from sedalia on a roster but I can't find it again lol also found an interesting history of the group and the formation of the ur , the book is lengthy and I have yet to finish it but I did find a few items between pages 162 and 167 and I c&p a few sentences http://www.scribd.com/doc/44653650/History-of-Knights-of-Pythias

 

[Breezie]

~ Summarization (thus far) of Clues/Possibles ~

(Contributed by members starting with SoMdRelicHunter's ID post #133)
#30 ~ Savant . . .Possible Knights of Columbus
#137 ~ Breezie ... Possible 1920s clasp, Fraternal, Knights of Columbus Trustee Pin.
#139 ~ TheCannonballGuy ... 1. Court of Calanthe ~ 2. Order of Calanthe
#143 ~ TheCannonballGuy ... Possible UR Rank Insignia
#144 ~ Sodabottlebob ... Possible Lodge Number (10 thru 90)
#146 ~ Sodabottlebob ... Mysterous "C" reference to Lesson/Motto
#147 ~ allan ... 1. Wheatland #440 ~ 2. Division No. 10
#149 ~ Sodabottlebob ... 1. District of Columbia ~ 2. Possible Master at Arms
#150 ~ ivan salis ... Possible Missouri (MO) Battery/Company C

Additionally ... Notice the "shoulder board/patch" in the picture below. The picture itself is described as being that of a Chancellor circa 1870s. I am looking for a better picture/close up of one of those shoulder patches. I'm not saying just yet that the patch is the same exact "crossed swords," but it might be. If anyone comes across anything like this, please share it with us.

Thanks to one and all.

SBB

Bob, I'm adding/changing mine to Knights of Columbus
Breezie

 

[allan]

I think it was sedalia , but there were various countries with KOP chapters , the hilt has U R on it thats why we are leaning toward the KOP. My friend told me that I should look in the 1896 to 1917 or so sears catalog for the pin as sears sold quite a few fraternal pins and badges. I have yet to find a free site to look for it , haven't given up yet, also there were colored units of the UR so I wonder also if the C could have been for colored tho I lean toward the company theory

 

[Breezie]

I think it was sedalia , but there were various countries with KOP chapters , the hilt has U R on it thats why we are leaning toward the KOP. My friend told me that I should look in the 1896 to 1917 or so sears catalog for the pin as sears sold quite a few fraternal pins and badges. I have yet to find a free site to look for it , haven't given up yet, also there were colored units of the UR so I wonder also if the C could have been for colored tho I lean toward the company theory

Allan, Below are pics from my 1900 Sears catalog.

I'd also like to add another reason why I think it is non-military: Military pins are generally made not to rotate or move and the attaching pin on the back says fraternal/civilian to me.

Breezie

 

[allan]

definately 99.9 % non military but here is a quote I found which lead me to believe they ordered their own stuff " A great many Pythians were Civil War Veterans and some lodges formed their own military drill teams. This would in time evolve into the Uniformed Ranks, not just for the Pythians but for quite a number of other fraternal orders as well." they probably ordered what they wanted from various sources.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Something tells me you will like this. I am not fully prepared to explain it, but it will likely (as it did me) leave you scratching your noodle with a few questions. It is not directly related to the crossed swords pin, but definitely related to The Knights of Pythias and a military connection. After reading it, it made me realize that I wasn't the only dummy on the planet who wasn't up on their K of P history.

Just scroll down to where it says ...

Trivia

Link: http://www.floridareenactorsonline.com/AugustMag22002.htm

 

[allan]

yep , I was linked to that site so many times and I saw that and I wondered what they used and didn't use. This pin has been occupying a lot of my time and I have a note pad that if I printed it out would use up a ream of paper lol , any hints at items or clues or texts , links and also search terms I have yet to try. that link to the book I posted has some pictures in it but it loads so slow for me I got tired and will resume in the morning. i believe that the item dates between 1865 and the start or the spanish american war but maybe not. the reason I say this is because by then the UR had a set code of dress for all members. but maybe just maybe there were a few out there that used that crossed sword item or maybe just one guy with a personel jeweler , rarer than hens teeth lol . I would love for Bill to find the rest of it, nope does not mean we can solve it even with a complete version to go by but it would narrow my picture search down to a specific group and or area etc.Glad I don't have a job or I would be calling off with rectal glaucoma on this one , now.... if breezy is correct on a possible german influence well I am quiting... maybe lol

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

And just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water ...

I don't know where this guy came up with the following number, but it was attached to the description of the picture below. If he's right, then I've got about 1,500 more Knights of Pythias symbols to go. Dang!

SBB

[ Description ]

One of over 2,000 symbols used by the Knights of Pythias. A shield with a suit of armor with the letters F, C and B which stand for Friendship, Charity and Benevolence.

 

[Breezie]

It's late and there are so many posts, so I can't remember right now why the Knights of Columbus was not considered? Check out this post by MaineRelic:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,422860.0.html

Breezie

PS: I removed a couple of my post to prevent some clutter.

 

[savant365]

It's late and there are so many posts, so I can't remember right now why the Knights of Columbus was not considered? Check out this post by MaineRelic:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,422860.0.html

Breezie

I brought it up back in post #30 but couldn't find anything on it. Everything is NOT on the internet and I don't have access to a physical library where it can be found. But someone out there does...

 

[Breezie]

It's late and there are so many posts, so I can't remember right now why the Knights of Columbus was not considered? Check out this post by MaineRelic:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,422860.0.html

Breezie

I brought it up back in post #30 but couldn't find anything on it. Everything is NOT on the internet and I don't have access to a physical library where it can be found. But someone out there does...

Here's a Knight's of Columbus Trustee Pin & info
TRUSTEE - An anchor mounted on an axe bound with rods (fasces) over crossed swords. Symbolizes Columbus, authority and the power to defend and enforce the law.