Help with ID on military looking pin

[Bill_S]

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

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[ivan salis]

rough riders are turn of the century - spanish american war * 1899 -1901 --note the old civil war type set up style - unit number on top 1 (st) with company letter under it "B"-- ---if one look at the after spanish war but pre world war 1 type photo you showed earlier you will see a differant set up ---the state NY on top with the unit number below 88 (th) with no "company" noted ---in world war 1 the round screw back collar disc became the normal collar device.

I agree with soda bottle bob and think the "sword design" has elements of several swords of the era mixed together into a "artist concept" of a sword -- I think its civil war era due to the dual number for an artillery unit and the civil warish lead projectile (bullet) type items it was found along with -- due to the swords general type of basic design --I lean toward artillery sword or cadet sword. -- thinking "missing" number is 1 thru 9 - with "0" being the second number and "C" being the company

 

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[allan]

I could care less actually about what the letters represent , unless it would tell when where and who,by the rotc thing, which I am not trying to fit into the lettering on the pin ,I meant that the clipping mechanism and the soldering blobs are similar. I mean that it may be from a military prep type school.several which exist there in the general area where it was found, one being founded by a civil war general who may or may not have created his own "military" style pins for said school.

 

[ivan salis]

hey folks !!! big news -- there was was 2 possible civil war union units -- MISSOURI "(MO)" units the 1st light artillery battery "C" and 2 nd light artillery battery C !!!!--- MO (missouri ) battery C * light artillery

thus --- M O state of missouri (1st ior 2nd light artillery)
C -company C

found this tidbit under civil war action - in missouri *

oct 25th union forces under a major charles zagoyni *( cavalry ) after taking springfeild from the southeners ( the northern commanders diid not want to extend their supply line to springfeild) fell back to rolla and SEDALIA*

NOTE THE ITEM WAS FOUND IN SEDALIA*

note the union Missouri (MO) 2nd light artillery company (C) was based in the Rolla / Sedalia area for quite some time during the war.

www.civilwararchive.com

regimental index - then pick missouri --then artillery / enginneers

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

ivan salis ~

Here's a short-cut to your long-cut ...

( It goes straight to the Missouri page )

Link: http://www.civilwararchive.com/unionmo.htm

I hope you're right ... because I'm putting all of my eggs in your basket now. I just hope they don't get cracked and become scrambled. Lol



SBB

 

[ivan salis]

well bob --the short sword for artillery * would fit -- lettering M O (for missouri) would fit --- "C" for battery C would fit as well -- the unit--- missouri 2nd light artillery battery c was in the area during the civil war era * where the item was later found at .

folks -- I think think it might be solved.

I think its from either from the union missouri 1st light artillery battery "c" or union missouri 2nd light artillery battery "c" -- both groups were in the area where the item was found at during the civil war time frame -- the civil war era bullets found with it helps bolster my theory - i do believe.

 

[Bill_S]

If I would have realized that there was a piece missing I would have checked the hole more carefully. I may go back to the area and try to locate some of the holes I had dug in that area and go over them again looking for the missing piece. I usually try to leave no evidence of a dig so it may be hard. I will let you guys know if I have any luck.

 

[Dano Sverige]

Has anyone thought of emailing the pic' to Westpoint or some civil war museum/society etc? Might be worth a try?

I keep looking at that letter "O" and the backing it's set on. For some reason i keep thinking that the backing went all the way across to join the broken off section, making it all one piece. What i mean is it may be a 3 digit thing, such as "110" etc.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Unless someone convinces me otherwise, (which would be pretty easy at this stage) then I am sticking with ...

The swords depicted on the pin are some type of "Short Swords"

I don't know from what country or time period, but I definitely believe them to be short swords. The reason I emphasize this is because at least 90+% of the short swords I have seen pictures of, and text references to, were all ...

"Artillery Related"

So unless someone chooses to question or challenge this, then it too may serve as a valuable clue to the item's eventual identification ...

TheCannonballGuy ... What say you? I hold high regards for your knowledge and opinions.

~ * ~

Okey dokey ... now that I have that out of my system, I have a question for ...

Bill_S

Has it been determined yet exactly what type of metal the pin is made of? The reason I ask is because it looks rather cheaply made. For those of us who have been looking at hundreds of similar pins, you will note that the majority of them are "pressed" with hollow backs. Plus, the official military ones are very detailed and professional looking.

So if we can determine exactly what the pin is made of, then this too could serve as a valuable clue. If it's some type of "cast aluminum" or "pot metal" then it changes everything in my opinion ... meaning it could be some type of "cheap souvenir replica."

SBB

 

[ivan salis]

bill s the item might have been discarded due to breakage * it might have been thrown away -- as too easily broken -- it looks like it might have been repaired (sodered) once before

 

[allan]

here again is my link from post reply # 25 it lists all of the units http://home.usmo.com/~momollus/MOVOLFED.HTM#CAVALRY

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

No doubt everyone has there favorite website for Civil War/Vintage Military items, but I just wanted to share the following one I have been enjoying. I'm not sure what the total number of items shown are, but it's a "lot!"

I am particularly interested in sharing this with you in support of my "short sword" statement. The website pictures a total of 9 pages, with 176 swords, 16 of which are short swords. But of particular interest is the fact that (with only one German exception) every single short sword shown includes a text reference indicating a "artillery" connection.

Check it out ... it also shows a huge variety of other items.

Link: http://www.horsesoldier.com/

1. Cick at top ... "Inventory"
2. Left column ... "Edged Weapons"

(The inventory will change periodically as it is a for sale site)

I hope you enjoy the site.

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[SoMdRelicHunter]

Hey guys,
this is my first post here in quite a few years. I just happened to be browsing and I think I have this one solved. I believe the symbol on the sword is for Uniform Rank. A common symbol used by the Knights of Pythias. I have included a picture of a sword belt plate my dad dug some years ago. Also, a quick search yielded the picture of the sword with the same symbol. Being as how they were a faux military fraternity, I would imagine that they would have a unit structure similar to the militarys and would also use their own take on military insignia. What do y'all think? I hope the picture of the buckle isn't huge. I snapped it and am posting this with my fancy phone lol.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

SMRH ~

You Nailed It!



No question about it! That's the weird "U~Q~R" symbol.

Now let's find the pin!

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Dang! I have to leave. I just know someone is going to find a pin before I get back.

Good Luck!

SBB

P.S. ~ The "Knights of Pythias" swords sure don't look like short swords

 

[allan]

lol well that sure does bring it closer to the age of the attachment pin on the back , post civl war

 

[Breezie]

Thanks for the great new pics. Unfortunately I dont see any makers marks. The hinge does not appear to be the old T bar (tube hinge) type in pic 1..

What little I knew about hinges and clasps I forgot but here is a little illustration. Help Breezie.

As far as the hinge is concerned, it looks like the hinges made in the USA in the 1920s. (European could be different.) Since the clasp is missing, and we only have the hinge, it makes dating it harder. Of course, I'm basing my opinion on jewelry, not fraternal or military insignias, which would probably be the same. Personally, I think it is too 'fancy' to be military, thus I'm going with fraternal. Interesting post and find, Breezie

 

[High Plains Digger]

SBB--I think there is a little blip on the O where the two or whatever was connected to it, so it should span from the sword to the O. That sorta makes sense. And with it seemingly being on the bottom, the 2 seems perfect. Except CBG says no way.

And as to a "Sweetheart Pin", wasn't that just a small version of the regular issue? If that being the case, then the issued pin should be out there for a sweetheart pin to exist.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

SodaBottleBob wrote:
> Dang! I have to leave. I just know someone is going to find a pin before I get back.

Dang! I spent the entire afternoon today doing research after seeing SoMdRelicHunter's post. As I said way back in this discussion, the emblem on the pin's clamshell-guard could be the key to identifying the pin. Applause to SoMdRelicHunter for providing the most important clue to pin's correct identity!

Despite my often-posted certainty that the pin absolutely was not a civil war era Military insignia, some people have kept on insisting it was. Since SMRH has shown it is a Fraternal pin, not Military, I'll now just post only the part of my research which proves the pin is from the 1870s at the very earliest (possibly several decades later), what the letters and symbol (U, R, and a lily) on the clamshell-guard represent, and a likely theory about what the "attached" letters O and C on the pin's body may represent.

The Knights of Pythias fraternity was formed in Washington DC in February 1864. More importantly, in regard to dating the pin, the Uniformed Rank was not formed until 1870. That solidly proves the pin absolutely could not have been in existence during 1861-65.

The letters UR alongside the lily stand for "Uniformed Rank," which was a subset of the Knights of Pythias. Read the "Details" section at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_Pythias

The lily is a Calla Lily, which is a distinctively-shaped flower often seen on Knights of Pythias swords, and uniform-buttons. It is the symbol of the Uniformed Rank of the KoP. See the photo at the end of this post. Note that the button has "Knights Of Pythias - Uniformed Rank" on it. The backmark on it is "Waterbury Button Co.", written in extra-large letters, so the button is definitely 1870s-or-later. http://www.epier.com/biddingform.asp?1975187

Regarding the similarity of the KoP UR pin (with its attached letters "_OC") to US Military insignia during the Indian Wars era (but not the Civil War era):
The Wikipedia article says "some Pythians formed the Uniformed Rank, which adopted military terminology for its organization." Thus, it seems logical that the UR's insignia would also copy the basic attached-letters form of US Military insignia in that era (1870s-to-early-1900s).

Regarding the possible meaning of the letters "_ OC" attached to the pin's body:
Another organization which became associated with the Knights of Pythias during the Indian Wars era is the Order of Calanthe ...whose local units are called the Court Of Calanthe. (The wife of Pythias was named Calanthe.) Thus, the letters attached to the pin's body could be OOC or COC.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I didn't want to return empty handed, so I brought along a friend. I realize it's not the same pin, but hopefully some of the accompanying information will assist in finding an exact match.

I admit I was wrong about a few things, especially the short sword deal. But they still look more like short swords to me than they do long ones. Anyway, meet my new friend ...

~ * ~

3" x 3.5" at its widest point. Possibly silver. Fabulous badge of rank from the KNIGHTS OF PYTHIAS. This organization was the first chartered by Congress in 1864. This particular badge may be a Sergeant of Arms with two crossed swords on the triangle. You will find some wear to the metal, but shines up nice, which leads me to believe it may be silver. On the back is the copyright mark, plus SS DAVIS, SC (who was the first Supreme Chancellor). From my research there has only been two supreme chancellors. This badge is from the 1800's. In the 1900's they started making smaller badges. "C" clasp pin on the back is crooked, but in working condition. Great addition to any collection. There is a date on the back of 1874.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Still no exact matching pin, but I did find this tid-bit of information. I can only post the link because the photos and text on the site are copyright blocked. Anyway, check it out. It shows and discusses a Knights of Pythias "short sword" that is believed to have been used by their cadets and musicians. So if the pin does in fact depict short swords, then the pin itself may be that of a cadet or musician. Another interesting note is that the sword being discussed was made by the "Ames Company," which is the same company I spoke of earlier.

Weird connection.

SBB

Link: http://arms2armor.com/Swords/pythias2.htm