Help with ID on military looking pin

[Bill_S]

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

~ My Current Best Guess ~

<--- {- Knights of Pythias -} --->

"Court of Calanthe"

The Grand Court Order of Calanthe was organized in Houston, Texas, May 30, 1897, out of the need for burial insurance for black people. It was founded on the principles of "fidelity, harmony and love exhibited by Damon, Pythias, Hermione and Calanthe. "According to Greek legend, Damon and Pythias were friends who lived in Syracuse in the 4th Century B.C. When Pythias was sentenced to death, Damon took Pythias' place in prison while he put his affairs in order. Pythias returned just before Damon was to be executed, and the king was so impressed with their loyalty to one another that he pardoned Pythias. Calanthe was the wife of Pythias.

The first Court of Calanthe was organized with 20 men and women who all paid the
same amount of dues and were known as flat rate members. During the second
administration (1902-1925), Grand Court became a fraternal benefit society in order to increase death benefits, improve services for members and do more for the people in the community. The juvenile department was organized in 1907 and during the Great Depression, thousands of members were helped by lending money to finance homes. In 1948, the Home Office Building was constructed and stands today at 2411 Dowling Street where besides serving as the Home Office, has been used for services of numerous churches as well as Doctors' offices. Grant Court organizes hand-bell choirs, dance groups and several other youth activities. Grand Court was the first black fraternal that is a member in the National Fraternal Congress of America.



SBB

 

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[Bramblefind]

It's late and there are so many posts, so I can't remember right now why the Knights of Columbus was not considered? Check out this post by MaineRelic:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,422860.0.html

Breezie

I thought that was a very good possibility too. But when the UR and Lily mark was matched on the sword handles I looked and couldn't find where K of C used those symbols - think it was only a K of P design.

 

[diggummup]

Maybe it was made for a Civil War Veteran that was also a KOP member, a crossover or hybrid type of pin. The KOP swords with the numbers/ letter depicting his unit in the war? This thing is killing me. Just throwing things out there at this point.

 

[ivan salis]

with the order of the knights of pythias * formed up in washington DC in early 1864 (thus pro union) - and the war lasting till mid 1865 * it possible that -- it was a knights of pythias item - modifed with the MO (missori) and "C" - later on by a civil war veteran . -- I while find the items found with it to be of civil war or close to it era , the U ( lily) R on the sword hilt marks it as a knights of pythias item -- the uniform rank was concieved in 1884 / offically added in 1888 * thus the item can be no older than 1884 /1888 -- please note that when the spanish american war broke out in 1899 the knights of pythias --offered a full company of men to the us military for "service" --the uniform rank within the knights of pythias was a quazi military sort of group of folks --modeled after the military .

 

[allan]

just did a search for knights of pythias charm bracelet and came up with this picture, see anything familiar on it? also this is the company that has made known KOP items and has been in the buisness for over 130 years. so now my guess at what it is " modified charm bracelet item" maybe lol

 

[allan]

here is the link http://www.lauterer.com/es2118oessilvercharmbracelet.aspx , Ivan I was writing while you posted good call I think on the time frame, now are the letters and or numbers traceable by size I wonder

 

[ivan salis]

customized -- a bit with M O C-- thus the odd soder markings ? see the swords above on the end --humm

so 1884 / 1888 - soonest date of item --thus post civil war - possible spanish american war (1899)-- the knight of pythias "uniform rank" being the quazi military group it was drilled a lot -- with sword, lance , axe (and one would guess - guns as well) maybe the area was used as a drill / practice feild --for those "uniform rank" knights of pythias -- that would explain bullets and the item as well * --possible old civil war vet "modified" a set of knights of pythias "swords" with his old civil war state / group --MO "missouri" C and lost it while drilling .

 

[allan]

I am going to write back to the company and see what they have to say, I must say this item has gone all over the board lol , good mental workout email sent asking for timeframe of manufature of the charm bracelet of item. yesterdays email was returned within a few hours

 

[diggummup]

Maybe it was made for a Civil War Veteran that was also a KOP member, a crossover or hybrid type of pin. The KOP swords with the numbers/ letter depicting his unit in the war? This thing is killing me. Just throwing things out there at this point.

I was thinking maybe it was made for the Veteran to wear on his uniform while marching in Parades, which were pretty commonplace in the 1890's-1900's for this and other Fraternal Organizations.

 

[Bramblefind]

just did a search for knights of pythias charm bracelet and came up with this picture, see anything familiar on it? also this is the company that has made known KOP items and has been in the buisness for over 130 years. so now my guess at what it is " modified charm bracelet item" maybe lol

Good find!

On another track.... I found this 1909 photo of members of the Court of Calanthe and they do use the crossed objects in their pins. They look like different objects on each pin here - though I think not swords ...

http://drckenyon.ohiolink.edu/handle/2374.KENY/4646

 

[ivan salis]

the knights of pythias "uniform rank" U (lily) R - concieved in 1884 and fully established in 1888 * did a lot of military type drilling --and was a sort of quazi military group -- the bullets found along with the item and the item itself could be from a drill feild area * used for this purpose -- being the group was mainly african american in nature---- many members might have had older guns of the civil war type --many places would not sell guns to african americans after the civil war -thus they used whatever guns they could get. --thus the older civil war type bullets found along with the pin.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Bramblefind ~ Anyone

Personal request for help ...

Can you please see if you can get this "Digital Resource" page to open the images of several Court of Calante items? I don't know if the images just aren't there or if I'm doing something wrong. The link is safe, but it just won't work for me.

Thanks a lot.

Bob

Link:
http://drc.kenyon.edu/handle/2374.KENY/3672/browse?value=Knights+of+Pythias&type=subject

 

[allan]

would noy fully load for me , I got the front page and saw the 10 photo's but when I click on an item it loads forever and never finish's . one pic has a few pins but it is the lodge ones and I tried the pic with the lodge members from 1930 but no go

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Thanks for trying. I didn't see where you need to register, or I would have tried that. Weird!

And just for the record, the official and most often used term is ...

O.O.C. = Order of Calanthe

As depicted on this Fraternal pin/ribbon I found on e-bay.

Link:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1897-TEXAS-ORDER-CALANTHE-BLACK-FRAT-BEAUTY-RIBBON-/360385319999

 

[allan]

I just received this reply from lauterer co. The 18 charms on this bracelet are the 18 officer emblems in the Masonic Order of Eastern Star (Freemasonry Women’s group). The emblem for the Sentinel is crossed swords.

Consider the lettering on your pin, I don’t think you chasing right lead…but good luck to you. LOL , great now we have a new lead to search or that is a different crossed sword pin I see now they are different

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

~ Revised ~

O.O.C. = Order of Calanthe

(My O looks like a zero, but didn't want to completely re-do it because it takes about 1/2 hour)

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Hey! Didn't you see the "copyright" on my image? Lol

 

[allan]

said copyright pending so I figured I could use it till it went thru lol

 

[SoMdRelicHunter]

Hey guys,

Thought I'd drop back in on this topic....
I believe that this is a cavalry hat pin made by a group of Knights of Pythias in Uniform Rank made for drill competitions.
Probably somewhere around turn of the century. However, as numerous as the Knights groups were, I highly doubt we will be able to find sufficient evidence to narrow down the unit, at least I would be very surprised if we did.(But hey, you guys are super sleuths and have gotten so very close thus far so I very well could be mistaken!!!)
Here's a link that gives the requirements for KP units wanting to participate in a drill competition in Washington, DC in 1894.
Notice they mention that cavalry units are required to use the US army cavalry drill regulations. I don't have a copy of these but I assume that a hat pin of some type denoting the unit is required.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Sw...ook_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBA

Also, Here is another link to a New York Times article from 1908 detailing the winners of a Pythian drill competition.
Notice first place in cavalry went to Missouri lol. Also, Notice how many different troops/units there are in this article....
And that's just one competition in 1908... I'm sure there were many more that may not have attended.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F20815FB3A5A15738DDDA10894D0405B888CF1D3


What do ya think?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

New Clue

(Maybe ~ Maybe Not)

Since whoever designed the pin was meticulous enough to include the itty-bitty ...

U (Lily) R

... on the handle, is it possible that the <= on the blades were also intentional? Take a close look at Bill_S's close up, and then compare it to my illustration. It appears to be some kind of heart combined with what looks to be some kind of sunrise/sunset. Generally, a sunrise depicts beginning/birth/celebration. Whereas a sunset depicts ending/death/memorium.

I'm wondering if it is just a random design or a "specific" design?

(And while you're looking, check out the weld - Homemade or Professional?)