Help with ID on military looking pin

[Bill_S]

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Big Cy ~

Another state you say? No way Jose! My heart is still in Missouri

X marks the spot for Sedalia ...

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

This is the post that will get me booted out the door. But since I saw this picture at least a hundred times during my searches, and was always amazed by it, I just had to share it ...

The Hands of Victory Monument ~ Baghdad, Iraq

{ The World's Largest Crossed Swords }

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Bill_S ...

If you don't mind, I would like to continue contributing to your thread from time to time. As you know, I have become somewhat obsessed with it. I intend to keep my post focused strictly on Knights of Pythias items. Perhaps some day it will be the definitive go-to site for future researchers. During the course of my research I have amassed quite a collection of pictures. Some of which still need researched. Please note that my primary goal now, and always, is to find another sword pin like yours.

I realize it may remain a subject of debate for some time to come, but I am still of the opinion (until further research proves otherwise) that your pin started out like the West Virginia pin, but somewhere along the line was altered for some reason to accomidate the letters that are on it now.

I will assume for the moment that you do not mind my continuing research and ocassional post, and will start with the following ...

1. For Bigcypresshunter & ivan salis: Big Cy ... You asked for another state ... how
about Florida? I know that both you and ivan salis live there. I don't know much
about the pin, other than it is dated 1930.

2. For allan ... Here's another Missouri item for you to research. It's a small
invitation booklet dated 1892 ~ Kansas City, Missouri ~ Notice the no.101 on the
kepi.

3. For TheCannonballGuy: Earlier we discussed the possible existence of a KoP
short sword. I found the sword pictured whose origin was in question. It's
different than most of the KoP swords, but has the helmet and lion on the butt
of the handle. As far as I know, these were used during lodge ceremonies and
may be like the one mentioned earlier that was laid on a Bible. It might even be a
dagger. I haven't determined it's length yet, but appears to be about 18 inches. I
am sure they are extremely rare, as this is the only one I have seen. Q: Did anyone
else use the Helmet/Lion symbol? (The close up is of one of their standard swords).

I hope you guys enjoy your small tokens of my appreciation

If Bill_S gives the OK, I'll be back!

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Bramblefind ~

Surely you didn't think I was going to forget you? I know you like books and such, so I picked this early poster for you. I don't know the date, but it is memorium related. It depicts the original founders, with the main man, Justice H. Rathbone on top. It was described as extremely rare. I hope you like it.

I would also like to acknowledge other members, whose names I won't mention as they are too numerous, but who I am also searching for pictures of items to share with them.

By the way, my list of kepis w/pictures now totals almost 20 different ones. One of these days I will post a list showing the various states and numbers.

SBB

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I realize it may remain a subject of debate for some time to come, but I am still of the opinion (until further research proves otherwise) that your pin started out like the West Virginia pin, but somewhere along the line was altered for some reason to accomidate the letters that are on it now.

Did you notice that there is no hole in the donut? The letter "O" has no hole. Look at the backside. It could be almost anything.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Staying on topic here, uglymailman mentioned earlier that there is room for at least 3 letters/numbers. I see the weld at point 2 but was there a weld at point 1? Look carefully if there is a break or a weld we may be looking at 3 letters/numbers.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Big Cy ~

I wondered about that too, (a lot), and came to the personal conclusion if there were three letters, that if one broke off, all three would have become detached at the same time. Especially if they were welded together as one. But I suppose anything is possible.

By the way, my request to Bill_S about posting off-topic photos is because I spend so much time searching, that I can't stand not being able to save and post some of what I find. At present I have at leat 100 Knights of Pythias pictures in my photo gallery. Of course, I don't intend to post all, or even a fraction of them. As I said earlier, my goal is finding another pin. But I hate to devote the time necessary in finding one without being able to show something for my efforts. If there are more pins out there, I will find them!

(That is unless someone beats me to it). Lol

SBB

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

If there is a break at point 1, then its 3 letters/numbers.

Did you notice no hole in the donut? What do you make of that?

So far its been interesting but keep in mind Bob if we all posted our deadend research, the threads would all be 3 pages long or more and very confusing for the casual reader. I was gone only 3 days and I still havent read it all lol.

Im hoping you find another. Maybe if we had more pins we could figure the state/.letter/number relationship.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

[ Quote ]
Keep in mind Bob if we all posted our deadend research, the threads would all be 3 pages long or more and very confusing.


Big Cy ~

Okay, fine. I'll take your advice and bow out. I don't want to offend a single member.

Good luck.

Bob

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

[ Quote ]
Keep in mind Bob if we all posted our deadend research, the threads would all be 3 pages long or more and very confusing.


Big Cy ~

Okay, fine. I'll take your advice and bow out. I don't want to offend a single member.

Good luck.

Bob

I reedited it so as not to be misunderstood. I am not advising you to stop. Heck no! You are working the hardest and Im sure we are all glad you are helping. You are our best chance of finding another.


Its just when thread go over 2 or 3 pages it gets very confusing for the casual reader that doesnt follow it everyday. Im just saying to keep it in mind for the future. What do you make of the no hole in the donut?

 

[allan]

I think the mound city 10 is in kansas , I also wonder if the letters at the top may refer to the name of the lodge/castle/domain etc, name each hose has a name so maybe its an abrev. of that name. still looking, the wva is driving me crazy lol. so what has me thinking hpothetically here is W = wyandotte and the va is for virginia. the wyandotte is in my head because I saw one named that. a lil something to consider, so Bills could be ?mo

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Bill_S ...

Q: Did anyone
else use the Helmet/Lion symbol? (The close up is of one of their standard swords).

SBB

I think I see the helmet on the end. Another KOP clue.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I realize I come across as tempermental at times, but I guess that's just my nature. It's a simple case of this being fun for me. Otherwise the four to five hours of daily research just ain't worth it. But this is not to say others are not devoting an equal amout of time, as they may very well be doing that. In a way, I am just trying to keep this thread alive. I can already feel it waning. I doubt there will ever be a flood of post from myself or anyone else from this date forward. It's just too frustrating to most in not being able to find something. As for myself, if I wasn't researching this, it would be something else. I have lots of time and love doing research. Especially research that offers a challenge like this.

As for the so called "donut hole" and "missing letter" ... I honestly believe every letter was taken from some other item and just welded on the pin. They do not look original! But this does not sway me from searching for another one just like the "West Virginia / 30" pin. Even though rare and extremely hard to find, I honestly believe there are more pins like it out there. Possibly with different letters, but "out there!"

SBB

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

This is very true, you are keeping it alive and that cant be bad.

Maybe Im wrong as this thread may only be confusing to me lol. :P

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

As for the so called "donut hole" and "missing letter" ... I honestly believe every letter was taken from some other item and just welded on the pin. They do not look original!

You may be correct and thats why we need to see another pin or a better pic of the backside ot the WVA pin.

Keep up the good work. I havent been able to find anything and Ive looked at hundreds if not thousands of "crossed swords" images and I just dont have the time..

Bill knows a lot more about his "military looking" pin than he did when he first posted it. I still think we need to get the WVA pin owner involved. Anyone a member of the US Militaria Forum? http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42394

 

[ivan salis]

I to go with a alltered knights of pythias U {lily} R - uniformed rank - crossed sword item as the "uniformed rank" was first thought up in 1884 * and made a part of the knights of pythias in 1888 * the item as such can not pre date that time frame ( thus its NOT civil war era )- however many of the knights of pythias WERE civil war vets--so whoever made or had this made might have used his old civil war unit ID - or knights of pythias group ID - I think the letters were "tacked onto" the swords as well.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Bramblefind ~

When you get a minute, could you please enlarge ~ focus ~ and do whatever necessary to highlight the handle on this sword? If those aren't lilies on the handles, then I don't know what they are. This thing is as rare as Bill_S's pin. I've looked and can't find another one anywhere. The helmet/lion are a match ... it's the lily handles and the center part that I'm wondering about. As I mentioned earlier, it appears to be about 18 inches long, with a blade width of maybe 1 1/4"

Thanks.

Bob

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

In my opinion, you've been making excellent finds in this quest, SodaBottleBob. I must say, you are even more diligent at web-searching than I am.

That is why, as I mentioned previously, I recently decided to let you be the web-searcher, and I would try contacting a "knowledgeable person" at the Knights of Pythias organization, and send him/her the photos of Bill_S's insignia-pin and the very-similar W VA KoP-UR pin.

This afternoon, I got an email reply from Mr. Saltzman, the current Supreme Secretary of the KoP. He gave me his approval to send the photos, which I've now done. When I get his next reply, I'll tell y'all what he says about the insignia-pins.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

TCG ~

Thanks.

I suppose there comes a time when it becomes necessary to consult the experts. It takes a little fun out of it for forum cruisers, but, hey, that's the way it goes. I just now found my first reference to the numbers on the kepi hats that referred to them as ...

State "Regiment" Numbers

(But I still think they are "Lodge" numbers)

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

SodaBottleBob wrote:
> I just now found my first reference to the numbers on the kepi hats that referred to them as ...
> State "Regiment" Numbers
> (But I still think they are "Lodge" numbers)

Of course they are state "regiment" numbers. I've posted that the KoP Uniformed Rank organization imitated the American Military's terminology. Like the various US state Militias, the UR called a certain "size" of its units within a state a Regiment. (By "size," I mean, in the American Military system of that era, a Regiment was specified to consist of 1,000 men.)

> I suppose there comes a time when it becomes necessary to consult the experts. It takes a little fun out of it
> for forum cruisers, but, hey, that's the way it goes.

Hey, by all means, keep on doing what you are doing. Some people have called me an expert -- so take my word for it that even "experts" on a subject don't know everything there is to know. (And that definitely includes me.)

Even though Mr. Saltzman is the current Supreme Secretary of the KoP, he may not know about the KoP-UR crossed-swords insignia-pin. He may need clues which you have already found ...or will find.

This very entertaining game ain't over yet. Do you leave a Sports game before the final point gets scored? Especially when you are one of the key players on the team? (That's what you've been in this discussion-thread.) Please keep on doing what you're doing. Some of us do appreciate it.