Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.
Help with ID on military looking pin
- Thread starter Bill_S
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SODABOTTLEBOB
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Bill_S
I am assuming you took a close look at the back of the pin with a magnifying glass or loupe. If not, and especially if it was altered and repainted, a makers mark may be there but covered up or distorted.
One of the makers of Knighs of Pythias pins ~ badges ~ emblems ~ etc. was (I believe) a company by the name of "Davis." I don't have their specific information at hand, but it can be retrieved easy enough. Here is an example of their work and their mark ...
"S.S. Davis S.C. ~ Copyright 1874 ~ Supreme Lodge"
(If Davis is not the maker, then I don't know what it refers to)
I am assuming you took a close look at the back of the pin with a magnifying glass or loupe. If not, and especially if it was altered and repainted, a makers mark may be there but covered up or distorted.
One of the makers of Knighs of Pythias pins ~ badges ~ emblems ~ etc. was (I believe) a company by the name of "Davis." I don't have their specific information at hand, but it can be retrieved easy enough. Here is an example of their work and their mark ...
"S.S. Davis S.C. ~ Copyright 1874 ~ Supreme Lodge"
(If Davis is not the maker, then I don't know what it refers to)
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SODABOTTLEBOB
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Correction ~
My apologies. I should have done the research first. The S.S. stands for ...
"Stillman S. Davis ~ Supreme Chancellor"
But I believe the mark* in the center may be that of the company.
* The emphasis is for Bill_S to take a closer look. If no mark - then it doesn't really matter.
~ * ~
Still remaining was the problem of the newly bankrupted Supreme Lodge. Several schemes including a failed bond issue were floated and it was finally decided that the Supreme Lodge should manufacture and sell officer and Knight jewels to the Grand and Subordinate Lodges. These were finally introduced in 1874 under the administration of Supreme Chancellor Stillman S. Davis and to this day are still inscribed “Copyright 1874 S.S. Davis S.C.” This introduced a stream of revenue that sustained the Supreme Lodge for years to come. In 1874, the Order also got a new-and obviously much needed-constitution. William D. Kennedy played a significant role in writing it.
Pythian Jewels are not known for their beauty and on their introduction were derided by the membership as “coffin plates.” Their design reflects not artistic merit but rather the prevailing politics of the time. A superior design had actually been submitted from Massachusetts but Massachusetts had voted against Pennsylvania in that recent controversy and Pennsylvania and its allies retaliated by voting for the opposing-and inferior-design. Thus was the Order saddled with an unattractive design which, except for a reduction in size, has remained virtually unchanged to this day.
[ Mark might be painted over or corroded ]
My apologies. I should have done the research first. The S.S. stands for ...
"Stillman S. Davis ~ Supreme Chancellor"
But I believe the mark* in the center may be that of the company.
* The emphasis is for Bill_S to take a closer look. If no mark - then it doesn't really matter.
~ * ~
Still remaining was the problem of the newly bankrupted Supreme Lodge. Several schemes including a failed bond issue were floated and it was finally decided that the Supreme Lodge should manufacture and sell officer and Knight jewels to the Grand and Subordinate Lodges. These were finally introduced in 1874 under the administration of Supreme Chancellor Stillman S. Davis and to this day are still inscribed “Copyright 1874 S.S. Davis S.C.” This introduced a stream of revenue that sustained the Supreme Lodge for years to come. In 1874, the Order also got a new-and obviously much needed-constitution. William D. Kennedy played a significant role in writing it.
Pythian Jewels are not known for their beauty and on their introduction were derided by the membership as “coffin plates.” Their design reflects not artistic merit but rather the prevailing politics of the time. A superior design had actually been submitted from Massachusetts but Massachusetts had voted against Pennsylvania in that recent controversy and Pennsylvania and its allies retaliated by voting for the opposing-and inferior-design. Thus was the Order saddled with an unattractive design which, except for a reduction in size, has remained virtually unchanged to this day.
[ Mark might be painted over or corroded ]
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SODABOTTLEBOB
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I'm just killing time waiting to hear from TheCannonballGuy
~ * ~
Red arrow points to ...
The Cincinnati Regalia Company ~ Fourth and Elm Streets, Cincinnati, Ohio ~ Knights of Pythias Costumes and Supplies ~ Catalog No. 22 ~ 72 pages ~ Circa 1900.
~ * ~
Red arrow points to ...
The Cincinnati Regalia Company ~ Fourth and Elm Streets, Cincinnati, Ohio ~ Knights of Pythias Costumes and Supplies ~ Catalog No. 22 ~ 72 pages ~ Circa 1900.
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
~ Here's another maker of Knights of Pythias regalia ~
( There seems to be a "Ohio" connection with some of these companies )
{ Columbus, Ohio referred to once ~ Cincinnati twice }
~ * ~
The Pettibone Manufacturing Co. - Cincinnati, Ohio. - Company for Regalia Supplies and Costumes for all Secret Societies - Military Uniforms - Band Uniforms - and Equipment.
( There seems to be a "Ohio" connection with some of these companies )
{ Columbus, Ohio referred to once ~ Cincinnati twice }
~ * ~
The Pettibone Manufacturing Co. - Cincinnati, Ohio. - Company for Regalia Supplies and Costumes for all Secret Societies - Military Uniforms - Band Uniforms - and Equipment.
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TheCannonballGuy
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This morning I received an email from the Supreme Secretary of the Knights of Pythias, Mr. Saltzman. I'd sent him 10 photos showing Bill_S's pin and the very-similar pin found on the internet. Unfortunately, Mr. Saltzman is unable to provide the pin's precise iD. He mentioned that if the pin is for sale, he would inform some fellow Knights of Pythias members who collect Pythian artifacts and memorabilia. So, I replied:
"Because you do not know the insignia-pin's "specific" identification... if I may request, please Forward my email with the attached photos to the group of members whom you know to be collectors of Pythian artifacts and memorabilia. Perhaps one of them will know this insignia-pin's very-specific identification."
I will let this forum know if I receive any further response from Mr. Saltzman, or the Pythian memorabilia collectors he mentioned.
In my reply to Mr. Saltzman, I said I think that due to the pin's apparent extreme rarity, it may be from the African-American ("Negro") Knights of Pythias Uniformed Rank organization -- which late-1800s/early-1900s historical documents show as having many local units in Missouri, where this pin was excavated.
The "Negro" KoP-UR was of course much smaller that its Caucasian counterpart fraternity ...and in the late-1800s/early-1900s its members would be much less likely to be able to afford the cost of a significant quantity of metal insignia-pins -- even merely silverplated ones like Bill_S's pin.
"Because you do not know the insignia-pin's "specific" identification... if I may request, please Forward my email with the attached photos to the group of members whom you know to be collectors of Pythian artifacts and memorabilia. Perhaps one of them will know this insignia-pin's very-specific identification."
I will let this forum know if I receive any further response from Mr. Saltzman, or the Pythian memorabilia collectors he mentioned.
In my reply to Mr. Saltzman, I said I think that due to the pin's apparent extreme rarity, it may be from the African-American ("Negro") Knights of Pythias Uniformed Rank organization -- which late-1800s/early-1900s historical documents show as having many local units in Missouri, where this pin was excavated.
The "Negro" KoP-UR was of course much smaller that its Caucasian counterpart fraternity ...and in the late-1800s/early-1900s its members would be much less likely to be able to afford the cost of a significant quantity of metal insignia-pins -- even merely silverplated ones like Bill_S's pin.
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TheCannonballGuy
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Actually, that would be the Pettibone (not Pettybone) Manufacturing Company. I make the correction here only because correct spelling of a name is crucially important when doing web-searching. 
According to one of my Military button reference-books, the Pettibone Mfg. Co. was founded in the early 1870s, and was a dealer of military and "society, fancy goods, theatrical and regalia goods and trimmings & band goods." Despite its name, the Pettibone Manufacturing Co. did not actually manufacture any military buttons. It lasted to 1975.
A similar supplier of insignia was S.N. Meyer and (later) N.S. Meyer, dating from as early as 1868 and listed in 1907 as a "major insignia MAKER" (not merely a dealer of them). Thus far, I've been unable to locate an internet-viewable copy of any of the Meyer catalogs. (I've found some for sale, but they are not "viewable" via the internet, as in Google-book form, etc.) Note: The N.S. Meyer firm is still in business today, and is still a major manufacturer of insignia.
According to one of my Military button reference-books, the Pettibone Mfg. Co. was founded in the early 1870s, and was a dealer of military and "society, fancy goods, theatrical and regalia goods and trimmings & band goods." Despite its name, the Pettibone Manufacturing Co. did not actually manufacture any military buttons. It lasted to 1975.
A similar supplier of insignia was S.N. Meyer and (later) N.S. Meyer, dating from as early as 1868 and listed in 1907 as a "major insignia MAKER" (not merely a dealer of them). Thus far, I've been unable to locate an internet-viewable copy of any of the Meyer catalogs. (I've found some for sale, but they are not "viewable" via the internet, as in Google-book form, etc.) Note: The N.S. Meyer firm is still in business today, and is still a major manufacturer of insignia.
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SODABOTTLEBOB
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TCG ~
Thanks. I corrected the spelling. By the way, I have seen evidence where the Pettibone company did produce "Knights of Pythias" ~ "Lily Buttons" Possibly not considered military, but definitely had the Lily on the front and the name on the back, and were the type used on some of the kepi hats. I can provide a picture of one later, but will have to go back and search for it. I'm not sure if I saved it or not. I have so many pictures in my gallery now that I can barely keep track of them.
In the meantime, compare the crossed "rifles" below (that was described as being made by the Pettibone Company) and the W. VA. / 30 pin. I think the Pettibone Company may be a clue worth investigating.
Link to one of their"Band Uniform" catalogs: http://www.klinebooks.com/cgi-bin/kline/25949
Thanks. I corrected the spelling. By the way, I have seen evidence where the Pettibone company did produce "Knights of Pythias" ~ "Lily Buttons" Possibly not considered military, but definitely had the Lily on the front and the name on the back, and were the type used on some of the kepi hats. I can provide a picture of one later, but will have to go back and search for it. I'm not sure if I saved it or not. I have so many pictures in my gallery now that I can barely keep track of them.
In the meantime, compare the crossed "rifles" below (that was described as being made by the Pettibone Company) and the W. VA. / 30 pin. I think the Pettibone Company may be a clue worth investigating.
Link to one of their"Band Uniform" catalogs: http://www.klinebooks.com/cgi-bin/kline/25949
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SODABOTTLEBOB
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TCG ~
I guess I'm a little confused as to whether you mean the Pettibone Company didn't make Knights of Pythias items, or whether you mean they didn't make "true" military items?
In any event, I have lots of pictures of Knights of Pythias/Pettibone buttons which are definitely the type they used on many of the kepi hats and uniforms. But I do not have the specific picture I mentioned where it shows one of the buttons side-by-side / front and back. I guess at this point you will just have to take my word for it, or else do some additional research of your own.
However, I did have this picture of a belt buckle which had the following description associated with it ... (notice how people are sometimes confused about dating KOP items. Since they really don't know, they just say ... "Civil War Era." Plus, they don't always know one belt buckle from another, as evidenced here.
~ * ~
Auction Is For A Civil War Era Fraternal Organization. , U.R.K.P. Ceremonial Sword Belt, With Silver Plate Buckle, 4," LILY" " URKP Silver Plate Emblems, Barrel Chains, Clips, Hooks, Etc. All Stamped, "PETTIBONE BROS. MFG. CIN'TI,O.",
I guess I'm a little confused as to whether you mean the Pettibone Company didn't make Knights of Pythias items, or whether you mean they didn't make "true" military items?
In any event, I have lots of pictures of Knights of Pythias/Pettibone buttons which are definitely the type they used on many of the kepi hats and uniforms. But I do not have the specific picture I mentioned where it shows one of the buttons side-by-side / front and back. I guess at this point you will just have to take my word for it, or else do some additional research of your own.
However, I did have this picture of a belt buckle which had the following description associated with it ... (notice how people are sometimes confused about dating KOP items. Since they really don't know, they just say ... "Civil War Era." Plus, they don't always know one belt buckle from another, as evidenced here.
~ * ~
Auction Is For A Civil War Era Fraternal Organization. , U.R.K.P. Ceremonial Sword Belt, With Silver Plate Buckle, 4," LILY" " URKP Silver Plate Emblems, Barrel Chains, Clips, Hooks, Etc. All Stamped, "PETTIBONE BROS. MFG. CIN'TI,O.",
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nice guys ! the mound city chapter is a negro lodge and is company C , gives us a few more leads to track down. I saw that auction lol , it was appraised by an " expert" who dated before the UR was even formed and the seller mentions that he thinks it is even older lol.
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SODABOTTLEBOB
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TCG & allan ~
Until further notice I am focusing my searches on ...
"Mound City, Missouri"
Company C
Until further notice I am focusing my searches on ...
"Mound City, Missouri"
Company C
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The order of Knights of Pythias has five subordinate lodges in Kansas City, Kansas. The oldest of these is Fellowship Lodge No. 2, which was chartered April 11, 1882. Myrtle No. 1, was chartered February 5, 1880, and was for many years the oldest lodge of the order in Kansas. It was consolidated with Fellowship a few years ago and the latter then took first rank as the oldest lodge.
Germania Lodge No. I was instituted July 9, 1881. Other subordinate lodges of the Knights of Pythias are Fearless No. 97, WideAwake No. 153 and College No. 201. Freia No. 195 was one of the old lodges of the Knights of Pythias in Kansas City, Kansas.
Wyandotte Division No. 10, Uniform Rank Knights of Pythias, is the oldest and now the only division of the Uniform Rank in Kansas City, Kansas.
Calanthe Temple No. 1, Pythian Sisters, has been in existence since early in the eighties. Wide-Awake Temple No. 59 is a strong organization of the sisterhood which has been in existence nearly thirty years.
Fellowship and Wide-Awake lodges, and Calanthe and WideAwake temples, meet in the Pythian hall at No. 624 Minnesota avenue.
There is a mound city kansas and one in missouri also
Germania Lodge No. I was instituted July 9, 1881. Other subordinate lodges of the Knights of Pythias are Fearless No. 97, WideAwake No. 153 and College No. 201. Freia No. 195 was one of the old lodges of the Knights of Pythias in Kansas City, Kansas.
Wyandotte Division No. 10, Uniform Rank Knights of Pythias, is the oldest and now the only division of the Uniform Rank in Kansas City, Kansas.
Calanthe Temple No. 1, Pythian Sisters, has been in existence since early in the eighties. Wide-Awake Temple No. 59 is a strong organization of the sisterhood which has been in existence nearly thirty years.
Fellowship and Wide-Awake lodges, and Calanthe and WideAwake temples, meet in the Pythian hall at No. 624 Minnesota avenue.
There is a mound city kansas and one in missouri also
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SODABOTTLEBOB
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I hit a dead end regarding any more information related to the Knights of Pythias lodges located in West Virginia. I may have missed something, but there doesn't seem to be an active one now. Nor have I been able to determine when the lodge in Wheeling ceased operation.
Regarding the information in my last post, it pertains to a ...
Frederick Christian Schmeichel, who was born in Wheeling on September 26, 1874. There is no death date because the historical article about him was written in 1923 while he was still alive. In 1923 he would have been 49 years old. The article referred to him as a "past" Master of the Knights of Pythias. But exactly when that ocurred the article does not specify. I never was able to confirm if the "30" on the W. VA. pin was a Lodge number or a Regiment number. Other than to say I found the lodge reference for a number 30, but no regiment reference.
Anyway, I'm giving up on the West Virginia stuff for the time being and moving on to the Moundville research.
Hey allan ~
Here's a weird coincidence ... (Unless you already mentioned it and I missed it).
Little Prince Lodge No 79, Knights of Pythias, is a business dealing in the Fraternal Organizations industry. Little Prince Lodge No 79 is located in Moundsville, West Virginia on 604 Tomlinson Avenue.
Regarding the information in my last post, it pertains to a ...
Frederick Christian Schmeichel, who was born in Wheeling on September 26, 1874. There is no death date because the historical article about him was written in 1923 while he was still alive. In 1923 he would have been 49 years old. The article referred to him as a "past" Master of the Knights of Pythias. But exactly when that ocurred the article does not specify. I never was able to confirm if the "30" on the W. VA. pin was a Lodge number or a Regiment number. Other than to say I found the lodge reference for a number 30, but no regiment reference.
Anyway, I'm giving up on the West Virginia stuff for the time being and moving on to the Moundville research.
Hey allan ~
Here's a weird coincidence ... (Unless you already mentioned it and I missed it).
Little Prince Lodge No 79, Knights of Pythias, is a business dealing in the Fraternal Organizations industry. Little Prince Lodge No 79 is located in Moundsville, West Virginia on 604 Tomlinson Avenue.
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The only medals I have found from them are the fcb shield ones , none of any military style , the wheeling chapter is Ohio Valley Lodge No. 30, Knights of Pythias so that is prolly what it refers to ,and if so Bills may be the mound city C . The lodge in Wheeling was in operation into the 50's according to this article http://wheeling.weirton.lib.wv.us/history/orgs/P1/Pythian_Building_1928.htm
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You did it, when you mentioned the wheeling ur I knew I had a few notepads with reference to them lol , when I saw the chapter as a negro chapter I did a lil research but got tired lol .I have a few texts on pdf for the wheeling lodge I am getting a look at a few pages I had book marked now for any info relevant. i think we have pretty much given Bill's pin a reference point but it would be nice to find one with known provenance. whether it is a picture or written description .
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Can one of you guys download or see this full text pdf ? I can't for some reason http://etd.ohiolink.edu/view.cgi/McBride Harriet Wain.pdf?osu1224791800 it may have pictures lol
This story of fraternal regalia is told from the perspective of The M.C.Lilley & Co. of Columbus, Ohio. This firm manufactured, distributed and sold fraternal regalia from 1865 to 1953. It was the largest of the regalia houses and serves as an example of the industry that fraternalism supported in the years of the Great Fraternal Movement.
This story of fraternal regalia is told from the perspective of The M.C.Lilley & Co. of Columbus, Ohio. This firm manufactured, distributed and sold fraternal regalia from 1865 to 1953. It was the largest of the regalia houses and serves as an example of the industry that fraternalism supported in the years of the Great Fraternal Movement.
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TheCannonballGuy
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SodaBottleBob wrote:
> I guess I'm a little confused as to whether you mean the Pettibone Company didn't make
> Knights of Pythias items, or whether you mean they didn't make "true" military items?
I meant that Pettibone Manufacturing Co. was only a seller of insignia. It did not manufacture any insignia (fratrnal, military, or other). Pettibone got the insignia in its sales-catalog from actual manufacturers (such as Meyer, and Waterbury, and Scovill). However, if I recall correctly, Pettiboone did manufacture non-metal regalia, such as banners, reunion ribbons, military hats, etc.
Put simply... in the area of metal insignia, Pettibone was just a "middleman" ...making money via his sales-catalog by peddling metal insignia which had been made by one of the major insignia-manufacturers.
In actual fact, the VAST majority of company names you see in button backmarks did not manufacture any buttons. They were just the "retail seller" of the buttons. Such sellers' names are called "customer-backmarks." Let's say you were a clothing-maker, and you got a contract from the state of Georgia to supply 1,000 uniforms for the NY State Militia. You've made the cloth uniforms, but you need NY State Seal buttons to put on those uniforms. So, you would place an order with a button-maker such as the Scovill Manufacturing Company ...who would, at your request, put your clothing-company's name as the backmark on the buttons for your order.
That is the case with KoP-UR buttons which have Pettibone Mfg. Co. as the backmark. Pettibone manufactured the uniform, but not the metal insignia-buttons which were on the uniform when delivered to the KoP-UR..
> I guess I'm a little confused as to whether you mean the Pettibone Company didn't make
> Knights of Pythias items, or whether you mean they didn't make "true" military items?
I meant that Pettibone Manufacturing Co. was only a seller of insignia. It did not manufacture any insignia (fratrnal, military, or other). Pettibone got the insignia in its sales-catalog from actual manufacturers (such as Meyer, and Waterbury, and Scovill). However, if I recall correctly, Pettiboone did manufacture non-metal regalia, such as banners, reunion ribbons, military hats, etc.
Put simply... in the area of metal insignia, Pettibone was just a "middleman" ...making money via his sales-catalog by peddling metal insignia which had been made by one of the major insignia-manufacturers.
In actual fact, the VAST majority of company names you see in button backmarks did not manufacture any buttons. They were just the "retail seller" of the buttons. Such sellers' names are called "customer-backmarks." Let's say you were a clothing-maker, and you got a contract from the state of Georgia to supply 1,000 uniforms for the NY State Militia. You've made the cloth uniforms, but you need NY State Seal buttons to put on those uniforms. So, you would place an order with a button-maker such as the Scovill Manufacturing Company ...who would, at your request, put your clothing-company's name as the backmark on the buttons for your order.
That is the case with KoP-UR buttons which have Pettibone Mfg. Co. as the backmark. Pettibone manufactured the uniform, but not the metal insignia-buttons which were on the uniform when delivered to the KoP-UR..
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