has montezumas tomb been found ...?

[djui5]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Randy,

Not sure the Apache ever really could be classified as holding the Superstitions.

Joe,
You know what I mean. If you went back there anytime between 1800 and 1925, you were probably going to have Indian problems, and I don't think the Hohokums were killing anyone.

 

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[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Blindbowman, I have one more question for you, and if you can answer this one with a good logical answer, it will go some ways to helping to explain how you identify the Superstition mountains of Arizona as Aztlan.

Here is a panel from the first page of the Boturini Codex, which includes a version of the origin of the Aztecs as leaving Aztlan:

"The Boturini Codex was painted by an unknown Aztec author some time between 1530 and 1541, roughly a decade after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. Pictorial in nature, it tells the story of the legendary Aztec journey from Aztlán to the Valley of Mexico."

If we study this pictogram from the Codex, we can see the mythical land of Aztlan as an ISLAND in the middle of a great sea. The Aztec people are depicted as leaving Aztlan in a canoe (or some kind of boat) and crossing to the mainland. Now some authors have theorized that this is simply another version of the old Atlantis legend, and I lean toward agreeing with that idea. There are other factors that are tantalizingly similar to legends from Old World cultures, such as the Aztec idea that they were the "chosen people" of a great god (Huitzilpocatl, if my spelling is close) and that they were searching out a "promised land" which parallels the ancient Hebrew epic of being a "chosen people of God" and being led to a "promised land". Now this primordial Island where the Aztecs lived prior to coming to the mainland (Mexico) has been proposed as being quite a number of locations, including such far-distant points as Florida and Wisconsin, while others have identified San Felipe Aztlan, Nayarit (Mexico) as THE site of Aztlan. None of these locations is an ISLAND, which (in my view) is a huge problem with making them Aztlan.

So how can we hope to identify the Superstition Mountains of Arizona as Aztlan? Are we to say that the Superstitions were an ISLAND and that there was a great SEA in Arizona at the time? Now I realize that the time period cited by Plato for the end of Atlantis is around the end of the last Ice Age and that sea levels were considerably lower, so the boundaries of the various land masses were notably different from what they are today - however it seems unlikely that the Superstitions were an island at that time.

That is my question in a nutshell - how can we fit the Superstition mountains as Aztlan, when the Aztecs described Aztlan as an ISLAND and there seems to be no "Island Superstitions" at least not at the time period? I know that some sources place Aztlan to the north, which helps to point to the Superstitions (again let us not forget that it is a considerable distance away from Tenochtitlan, over 1200 miles) but other sources put Aztlan as off in the EAST which would NOT fit at all with the Arizona location.

Wish I were not being such a "wet blanket" on things here buddy, I really hate to discourage anyone from seeking treasures, just that I would like to understand your theory as best as possible - even if I am not yet convinced it is correct. I have similar problems with folks who have proposed various locations for Atlantis, including Thera in the Mediterranean, Greenland, Ireland, Cyprus, Peru, etc as they have serious problems with these proposed locations as they do not fit with Plato's descriptions on several points at least. My disagreeing with these folks sure doesn't prevent them from selling millions of books and who knows maybe they have it right - but in my view, if you have to change such a serious detail as an ISLAND versus an inland mountain chain, then you need some serious and undeniable proof to show that it is reasonable to ignore such an important detail. Doesn't the fact that the Superstitions are not an island give you reason to suspect that it is not the location of Aztlan? You must have a good reason to ignore this important point, which is why I am asking.

I look forward to your explanation of how this Aztlan=Superstitions works, and thank you in advance,
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[djui5]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

I think Bowman is trying to sell some beachfront property in Arizona

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

I think Bowman is trying to sell some beachfront property in Arizona

no in fact i am just pionting out the poor translation of the codex has misled everyone to beleive something that jut is not true ..the vissons of the shamam have been mis translated , the evidence is here its only been confused by poor map reading skills and poor navigational skills ,and poor translation of the codex them selfs ...

i have no idea if parts of az were ever under water or will ever be under water .. this is not a joke if this is Aztlan it could start a 3rd world war ..or make a ever lasting peace ... this most secerd place to the aztec and mexico people is in the USA ...i just dont see the US goverment handing over the state of AZ to mexico ...lol

mexico could become the next state ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Montezuma was born, at least, 200 years after the Aztecs are said to have left Aztlan, but "facts" seldom fit into bowman's theories. Almost every thought/word that pops into the shotgun pattern of bb's mental process, can find an accompanying Internet site....sometimes several.

Once bb makes a trip, "no pun intended", to that site......He has an Ahaa! moment. Here is my proof.

There is, IMHO, a silver lining to this entertaining trip through fantasy land. For those who know their history, and actually try to read through bb's preludes to his book......It makes us revisit the true history of the topic and treasure of the day. In that process, we all learn a little more.

Just my opinion.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

i have nothing to say to you ... we will see who is right and who is wrong ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Greetings Blindbowman and everyone,

Thank you for taking the time to explain your ideas, I think I now have a handle on the concept. Unless I am reading this wrong, you are saying that we are mis-interpreting the Botorini Codex which shows Aztlan as an island, that it is rather a journey symbolically. Correct? If this is what you are saying, then the Superstitions could be the "white island" or "island of herons" we have been mis-interpreting from the Botorini Codex as it is not really an "island".

Blindbowman wrote:

i just showed you Atlantis is .....

I don't think you have given out too much information on the location of Atlantis, in my own case at least it is extremely unlikely that I will have the funds and/or time to ever go and check out the location. In fact I have never done any deep-sea diving so it is about as likely that I could go there to check, as my winning the lottery! (haha)

Blindbowman also wrote:

you guys may be a bad influence on me ,

HEY!!! Now we must be talking about those other fellows like Real de Tayopa, Djui5, Cactusjumper etc - for myself I am only seeking treasures, not trying to lead you down the primrose path of "truth, justice, etc"! (haha ) Of course they will tell you how they are only seeking "knowledge" and "truth" etc but I make no such claims - you know exactly my motives! (heh heh) (Hmm some folks might call my motives "greed"! )

Blindbowman also wrote:

mexico could become the next state ...

Well the folks pushing for the establishment of a new country called the "North American Union" are sure pushing the idea, which of course will make Mexico one state, the USA another state, and Canada the third - I used to laugh when I heard such ideas as this one but these folks are dead-serious and already working to make it happen. If anyone doubts it, just look it up there is plenty on the internet including an official site for the folks behind the N.A.U. stupidity.

Cactusjumper wrote:

There is, IMHO, a silver lining to this entertaining trip through fantasy land. For those who know their history, and actually try to read through bb's preludes to his book......It makes us revisit the true history of the topic and treasure of the day. In that process, we all learn a little more.

You know Joe I had not thought of that aspect, but you are correct sir, I have found myself looking up various fact tidbits time and again to check things as we have followed the discourse.

Blindbowman wrote:

<snip> we will see who is right and who is wrong ...

Blindbowman my friend I hope that you are not angry with our mutual amigo Cactusjumper over some differences we have had in our discussions here - you know that we still have many things in common such as a deep interest in history. Just think how dull our discussions would be here, if we all were of the identical view on everything! You are quite correct in saying that we will eventually see who is right and who is wrong - as that old saying goes, 'he who laughs last, laughs best' - but I would hope that in the event that your theories are proven correct that you would not laugh at us too hard for not coming round to your views! After all there is no shame in learning a truth, if a 'pet theory' should be proven in-correct by facts, since it is the truth that we are seeking in the first place. (In my own case, the truth ought to have a nice pile of gold associated with it too! hee hee! )

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Greetings Blindbowman (and everyone),

If you have not already read it, I think you would enjoy "Atlantis, the Antediluvian World" by Ignatius Donnely - might have some information to support your theory. The full text is online (free) at: http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ataw/index.htm

Are you saying that the skull racks of the Aztecs were actually a type of abacus? Thank you in advance,
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Peerless67]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Quote BB "i beleive i can prove the Aztlan tribes were part of a much the larger tribes of Atlantis ...check this out ...the picture below is a type of Abacus 9 by 11 scale each skull = 100 unit pre skull and 900 units pre level or one foot print in the case of the codex

,, each codex had a 900 mile messurement for each foot print . they gave each messurement a 10 mile variation for every 300 miles . so in one black foot print was equal to 900-930 miles . go head map out the tripes to mexico city now .. guess what , these people knew the whole earth better then anyone else did at the time . the site of Aztlan is 3 black foot prints from Hawii and Galapagos island and 4 from atlantis ..., they maped places like the bering strait and the strait of Gibraltar..and the Ray dillman site is 300 miles or 1/3 or 3 skulls of a messurement from aztlan ...as far as i can tell they knew the whole earth and had already maped it ...and we called them savages..."


BB, if they had mapped somewhere that was 450 miles away would they have used half a foot print?

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Quote BB "i beleive i can prove the Aztlan tribes were part of a much the larger tribes of Atlantis ...check this out ...the picture below is a type of Abacus 9 by 11 scale each skull = 100 unit pre skull and 900 units pre level or one foot print in the case of the codex

,, each codex had a 900 mile messurement for each foot print . they gave each messurement a 10 mile variation for every 300 miles . so in one black foot print was equal to 900-930 miles . go head map out the tripes to mexico city now .. guess what , these people knew the whole earth better then anyone else did at the time . the site of Aztlan is 3 black foot prints from Hawii and Galapagos island and 4 from atlantis ..., they maped places like the bering strait and the strait of Gibraltar..and the Ray dillman site is 300 miles or 1/3 or 3 skulls of a messurement from aztlan ...as far as i can tell they knew the whole earth and had already maped it ...and we called them savages..."


BB, if they had mapped somewhere that was 450 miles away would they have used half a foot print?

no ,that would be 4 and 1/2 markes or dots , the aztec did at later times use the maya number system

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

i have about 170 aztec simbolics ,and at lest one picture of every known god they had . you want to know how much research i am doing ... you know those peices of odd turquoise found at the dillman site....

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Blindbowman wrote:

i get to see you brake some rock bitch ... you would be welcome djui5

?? I missed that one - can you clear up who/whom you are referring to Blindbowman?

Blindbowman also wrote:

no , i dont think so ,,... for you that wanted a good fix on the Atlantis site , here ya go ... 15degrees 58'05.97" N by 55degrees 36'51.84"W

Now I am confused with your theory again, just when I thought I had finally gotten a fair understanding of it. Now didn't you just say that Aztlan was NOT AN ISLAND (I respectfully disagree with you on this point mi amigo, for why should the Aztec author of the Codex have shown Aztlan as an island with the Aztec people leaving it via canoe/boat, if Aztlan were not an island?) so if Aztlan is NOT an island, and IF Aztlan and Atlantis are one and the same (I tend to think these two legends are referring to an Ice-age cataclysm and the end of a civilization that existed at that time, told from opposite shores of the Atlantic) then are you now saying either,...

Atlantis was also NOT AN ISLAND? .....

OR

Atlantis and Aztlan are NOT ONE AND THE SAME?

Like I said, I am once again confused with your theory. Your concept of the skull racks as a type of counting-board or abacus is a fascinating idea, and I reserve judgement on this point until I see more evidence either to prove or disprove it. If you are saying that Aztlan and Atlantis are NOT one and the same, I would respectfully disagree with you on that point, and it appears to me that is what you are saying since you have sited Atlantis at 15 degrees 58'05.97" N by 55 degrees 36'51.84"W and this site is NOT within the Superstition Mountains of Arizona. Let me explain why I feel that Aztlan and Atlantis are one place:

Both Aztlan and Atlantis are described as large islands,
Both Aztlan and Atlantis are described as having active volcanoes,
Both Aztlan and Atlantis are described as being powerful and arrogant/hostile nations,
Both Aztlan and Atlantis are "lost" with a few people escaping the cataclysm
The survivors of both places escaped by boat

This is only a part of the picture here, and even if Aztlan is to the north of Tenochtitlan this is not necessarily a problem with identifying it with Atlantis, since Plato did say that Atlantis was "opposite the Pillars of Herakles: (Straits of Gibraltar) which lies on 36.7 degrees N, while Tenochtitlan lies at 19° 28' North, so the islands of Atlantis ought to be considerably north of the Aztec capital city.

Blindbowman also wrote:

you know those peices of odd turquoise found at the dillman site....

I was unaware of any turquoise found by Dillman, as I have not read his work. What is the significance of the turquoise?

So like I said I am again confused with your theory, and ask that you please clarify this point for me? Thank you in advance,
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[djui5]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Who were you calling a bitch? Your writing is so confusing I don't understand what your saying.

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

sorry you must not use the word the way we do ...lol . we call some of the gang bitches ... only our close friends use the word that way ...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

HI Peeps: just lurking, but I do have an issue with this--->

"the skull racks of the Aztecs were actually a type of abacus"
~~~~~~~~~~~

The construction is completely wrong, there is no movement allowed for the counters to indicate increases or decreases of numbers, also abacuses used the basis of 10 - no of fngers - while the figures show only a possibiity of units of 3?

What am I missing? Hmmmmmm?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

HI Peeps: just lurking, but I do have an issue with this--->

"the skull racks of the Aztecs were actually a type of abacus"
~~~~~~~~~~~

The construction is completely wrong, there is no movement allowed for the counters to indicate increases or decreases of numbers, also abacuses used the basis of 10 - no of fngers - while the figures show only a possibiity of units of 3?

What am I missing? Hmmmmmm?

Don Jose de La Mancha

i am shocked you notice that , think about it every time they used the counting board they reset it , we didnt see it because is hard to preconceive moveing parts on a flat 2 demintional scale picture .. the heads could be fliped to face forward or backwards thus we do have a moveing scale ....

you must have read past this real de tayopa ....

"(eleven parallel lines,) again but with the semi-circle at the top of the intersection; the third, sixth and (ninth) of these lines are marked with a cross where they intersect with the vertical line. Three sets of Greek symbols (numbers from the acrophonic"

its my under standing they did use eleven parallel lines , from how i translated this was sheer brillience , its rather complex . but very cool . they did use the "again divided into two " they did that by fliping the skulls to face one dirrection or other , this gave them the ablity to dived by two or 3 with one ful messure equaling 900 , so every skull could be changed to equal 10th or 100s thus 9 skulls faceing back wards could be 90 and then if you face them forward they would equal 900 ..

for map scale , every 3 skulls equal 300 with a 10 count for variation built into the sum so for every 3 skulls when scaleing distences they added 10 units to the value of the sum so the full value of 9 skulls was 930 units ,, this scale is only usd in the codex with black foot prints ,, but it dose show us they had a complex scaleing and counting system ...

if it was anything less then brillence i would have demist it as not being from Aztlan or Atlantis ...

if you look the counting board there are 99 skulls ,3 sets of 33 or 11 sets of 9 ,, so they could count vast numbers with the turn of a skul and the 11 level of the scale ...this maybe a more complex system then we use today with the under standing that or pre-metric system was known to have been used 500 before the 1600's those were multables of 10,or 100 and later after 1600 became the basic for the decimal system ..

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Okay I now (again) think I have a handle on your theory here mi amigo Blindbowman. You are fairly certain that Atlantis and Aztlan are NOT one and the same. The idea of the skull racks as counting boards or 'abacus' seems a very strange type of mathematical device to me, for one thing it is highly UN-portable and requires the death of a group of people to make up just ONE. Of course we can look at our own first computer, ("Brainiac" I think it was called) which was literally the size of a house, so being big and un-wieldy does not automatically mean it cannot be a mathematical device. However just the idea of the amount of effort/warfare/etc required to end up with a single skull rack makes it seem unlikely as a counting board. Plus the skull racks are not all just a set of rows of skulls as shown in that depiction, some were really MOUNDS of skulls

(These are carved stone skulls, not literally human skulls On this type, it would NOT be possible either to rotate the skulls or move them in any way as they are carved onto flat stone)

Then we have the problem that the number of skulls on various skull racks is not identical, but different on about every different skull rack. How can that work as a counting board?

I will say that you have an interesting theory Blindbowman, though I cannot say that I am a 'believer' it would be quite a coup if you could prove it as fact to the historians. At least I can't find a whole series of timeline problems with this theory, in part because we do not know the true timeline of the Aztecs departure from Aztlan (or if Aztlan even existed for that matter) but I do wish you the best of luck and hope you will keep us posted.

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

thats interesting Oro , but maybe this stone wall is simbolic of a real counting board that size , and this would led me to posably beleive they were a set , one for odd numbers and one for even , or something of this nature , note the 9 units by 11 level yet this wall shows 16 by ? . this would be a even number count where the other 9 count is odd numbers ...if we could define the number of levels we could use the two counting boards as one vs the other and define there ablities .....it would take a lot longer to brake the values with out knowing the number of levels in this larger counting board but it could be done ... the reason i say this is when you add the 9and 16 it =25 1/4 of a full count ...yet 16 -9=7 , they maybe ably to count both dirrections on these counting boards , i will work on this and see what i can find out ....

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

bb,

"one of my greatest skills is to under stand what is not seen to the eye .. i saw greatness in his work and within him"

That says more about you than the rest of your posts.......combined.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

I think I might have mistakenly grouped together the mounds of skulls with the skull racks, which are not the same thing. However the various skull racks do have different numbers of skulls. One of the Spaniards who arrived with Cortez counted the skulls in Tenochtitlan mounted on skull racks and along the steps of the various temples and came up with 136,000, now does that number have any significance?

Just another observation here but it seems many folks have an attraction to identify things with famous or infamous cutlures, like Aztecs or even Egyptians, and to ignore the far-less-famous but no less fascinating cultures which are well documented to have existed in the American Southwest, such as the Anasazi, Sinagua, Hohokam, Mimbres, Mogollon etc. These cultures flourished through the southwest over centuries (and even thousands of years in some cases) and left ruins of cities that we do not even know the names of, but we treasure hunters are more interested in all things Aztec or Jesuit than to investigate such mysteries - even though these mysterious civilizations might have un-discovered treasures even more astonishing than anything the Aztecs ever had.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco