Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...? VERY LONG REPLY
Greetings Blindbowman and everyone,
This will be a VERY long reply as we have covered a LOT of ground in recent posts, so I wish to try to address all of the points in one post. So, I beg your indulgence (and patience)....
Blindbowman wrote:
Oro ,i tryed to explan the idea of the aztec comeing from mexico city to the superstitions make a the case even stronger , why as i saided if the tribe has became sick it would have most like gone some distence beyond its normal trade routes to get free of the evil spirits of sickness , thus a 1000 -1200 miles would be very logical ... you ask how did they know about the supersititions , thats a simple answer Montezuma him self was born there
May I ask for your
source for this statement? It is quite a statement, as I have never read anything that even hints that Montezuma was born anywhere other than in the home palace of his parents right in Tenochtitlan. Here is what one online site says:
Born: 1480
Birthplace: Tenochitlan (Mexico City), Mexico
Died: 1520
http://www.answers.com/topic/montezuma-ii?cat=entertainment
Now I am well aware that many online sources are open to question, so this is why I am asking for your source for the statement that Montezuma was born in the Superstition mountains of Arizona?
Blindbowman also wrote:
IMHO it may be a clovis site
That is quite possible - all it would take to prove this up would be to find some Clovis culture points and/or artifacts. There is evidence of very ancient Amerindian presence in the Superstitions, it would not be too surprising to learn that Clovis people had lived there for a time.
Blindbowman also wrote:
this isolated tribe strong hold could have beed there for a long long time and untill sickness scared them off this site it could be as the legends stated it was
I am lost again - what incident are you referring to, in which sickness frightened off some ancient Amerindians from the Superstitions? The most authentic Amerindian legends that I am aware of are Pima and Apache, and among those very interesting legends I know of the tale of the Great Flood (quite a surprising parallel with the ancient Hebrew tale of Noah, the Greek legend of the Flood of Deucalion, etc) the people "turned into stone" etc but I don't recall any Amerindian legend of a great sickness occurring in the Superstitions that drove the people from there? I would appreciate if you could point me in the right direction on this.
Blindbowman also wrote:
am not saying atlanis is anywhere in north america , but it dose not mean the atlantis people did not come to this site when their home land was destroyed and they could have come with wisdoms unknown to the locate tribes ...maybe the sorce of good arrow heads called them to this site .. may this is the reason the came to the superstitions
Covering a lot of territory in this passage, and I tend to agree with you that Atlantis is not likely located anywhere within North America - however if the ancient Greek historian Diodorus Siculus is correct, then Atlantians (the Greek spelling, not "Atlanteans" as we commonly do today) did have control over some regions on both North and South America. As to whether Atlantian survivors made it to America, it seems logical that (again resorting to Diodorus) at least some small numbers of the Atlantians survived the great cataclysm (as Plato described it, a single day and night of terrible earthquakes and floods, no "volcano" is mentioned whatsoever which makes the popular modern theory of Thera eruption+Minoans quite false) simply by not being near the coastline.
IF this line of logic is correct (and it would take
MAJOR proof to ever get any historian to agree with it) then it is also perfectly logical for any survivors of a massive flood to seek out some high ground that is easily defensible against their enemies in order to continue to survive. Remember that the Atlantians were not exactly a nice-peace-loving-'Coom-baya' type of folks, they were VERY warlike and had expanded their empire by the force of arms, making many enemies among their neighbors.
Next is a statement suggesting that the Superstitions might have been a good source of the raw materials used for tools and weapons, namely the types of stone used by ancient peoples. The best of these materials were obsidian (natural glass, created by volcanic action) flint, chert, etc. It would not be too surprising to learn that obsidian deposits exist in the Superstitions, however I have never seen any nor read of any such deposits, nor flint. That does NOT mean that such deposits do not exist in the Superstitions, only that I am not aware of any - so I am asking if
you know of any such deposits of the types of stone used by ancient peoples for making tools and weapons within the Superstions? It would go some way to support the contention that these deposits were a primary reason for ancient people choosing to make the Superstition Mountains their home.
Blindbowman also wrote:
we under stand that montezuma him self would have been a good hunter and great warrior , what warrior dose need a good sorce for weapons ...
I would suggest that a much easier source for the raw materials for weapon-making (for Montezuma and his warrior armies) can be found MUCH closer to home (Tenochtitlan) than to have to resort to traveling all the way to the Superstitions, as there are a number of excellent Obsidian and flint deposits right in Mexico near the great volcanoes there. I can also suggest that they could have obtained excellent obsidian (one of the popular materials used for Aztec weaponry) simply by trading with other tribes - anthropologists have traced out extremely long distance trade patterns in the Americas, with obisidian originating in Oregon being found in Florida, for one example. There would have been no need to send off 'mining missions' to obtain the obsidian (or flint, chert etc) when traveling Amerindian traders were buying the materials and bringing it to the Aztecs to sell for Aztec goods.
Blindbowman also wrote:
i dont think the gold had anything to do with chicomoztoc being there ..if fact the most likely didnt even value the gold at all ...and as they kept trying to keep their secerd place hidden the started make legends just by trying to cover up the secerd place ...
I am not sure about your first point - as I am not sure that Chicomoztoc was or is even a real geographic place, or if it is, that it would likely be found in the Superstition Mountains of Arizona. The second point is debatable - for we know that the Aztecs did not value gold as MONEY, but they did value it for jewelry and other uses. Among many Amerindian tribes, gold was less valuable than copper, which is a far superior metal for such things as knives, axes, etc even though still a soft metal. Your third point here, that the Aztecs were trying to keep the knowledge of their sacred place a secret through the method of making up legends, I have to say we can only guess on this point.
Blindbowman also wrote:
if i am right , this location is what i call a forced nature , pressure made the rock and minerals of this area more compressed ,makeing a better quality then the normal rocks of the area ,,,..you would see the sorce of clovis pionts , almost pure gold in unknown amonts and silver as what the legend of tayopa stated ...
Hmm this is another area where we probably disagree. The rocks of the Superstitions are noticeably different from other nearby mountain ranges, but
"better quality" is quite a question. Why do you hold that the tool-making rock of the Superstitions is superior to other sources? I don't even know of any obsidian or flint deposits found within the Superstitions - which question I asked you above. As for the source of the Clovis culture points, I believe that some archaeologists have already identified several mining sources in North America (including Oregon mentioned earlier) but never read any such site as being within the Superstition Mountains of Arizona.
Your next point is one that I have a
great deal of difficulty in agreeing with you - the legend of
Tayopa as far as I know, is very much in Mexico, not Arizona. I get the impression that you have not read too much on Tayopa, relying on one version (which can be found here on T-net under "Tayopa" forum, which is really only one source and that is a compilation of a treasure trove supposedly cached in Tayopa) that leaves out a great deal of information. Perhaps I am totally wrong about this and you have read all the legends of Tayopa, but
if you have
not, then I would
suggest you do - for it is a
GREAT STORY and I think you would then agree that it is pretty unlikely that Tayopa was located in the Superstitions of Arizona. However there were actually several Tayopas over the centuries, and though I still am convinced that ALL of the various Tayopas were still within Mexico, it is POSSIBLE that somehow the legend became so garbled and full of error that the true location was really within the Superstitions.
(How is that for waffling and qualifying a position? Did I leave enough room there for doubt?
)
If you can present some solid proof to show that Tayopa was and is in the Superstition Mountains, I would LOVE to see it!
Blindbowman also wrote:
you miss under stand one fact , if i foolish led myself to beleive a dozen treasure could be out there and when its all said and done i find a clovis site and its name was chicomoztoc and it was part of aztlan where montezuma was intombed . its not hard to see why they tryed to kill the gonzales and peralta miners off for trying to start mineing in the secerd place .. this tells why the dutchman never worked the mine very much alone .. he just wasnt stupid ...LOL ..
Well who knows what sort of treasure might be in the Superstitions? Can anyone say as an absolute fact that no such treasure exists there? It is a 'tough sell' to try to prove up some of these theories, and I got the impression that you have been trying to "fit" one or more ancient legends to what you have found OR have reason to believe is there - and that you have found problems with each one.
Your next point - about Gonzales & Peraltas being killed there for mining in a "sacred place" well that one I am very much not convinced of. I never found anything to prove that any Peraltas or Gonzales were ever mining in the Superstitions, nor that PROVES that they were the victims of the "massacre" of Massacre Field - in fact I lean toward the belief that the actual victims at Massacre Field were Pimas, not Mexicans and that the battle had nothing to do with Waltz's gold mine. Your next statement, that the Dutchman never worked the mine alone, I respectfully disagree with - and can point even to a source that you seem to favor and approve, the Holmes Manuscript. Remember Holmes following Waltz into the Superstitions? Waltz was ALONE. In fact it would appear that he only worked the mine relatively briefly with his partner Wisner/Wiser, for
most of his visits he was very much alone as he trusted few! It makes sense that Waltz did intentionally mislead at least some of the people who were trying to find his mine, so we agree on this point.
Blindbowman also wrote:
do i think the dutchman tryed to mis led others , hell ya , wouldnt you ...dudes there is a 400ft long vein of almost solid gold out there ...secerd site or not that gets your blood moveing even i your a dead spirit ...lol
As mentioned above, I agree that Waltz misled some folks on purpose and I would probably do the same thing. As for the size of the gold deposit, based on the statements of Waltz, you might have it quite right - all we need to do is find it again.
Blindbowman also wrote:
i am asking the Curators of Archaeology at the
Arizona State Museum if they can help mtch this rock sample to any known clovis pionts ...we only need find one genetic match and we have the evidence ...i talked to my brother ron about have 8-10 people work the mine by hand when the clam is legal ,, we both agree thats more then we beleive we would find when i started this 29 years ago ...
The stone you showed in the photos does not resemble any obsidian I know of, nor flint - however quartz and even chalcedony have been used by ancient people for tool/weapon making so who knows?
As for getting a legal claim on a mineral deposit in the Superstitions - I wish you the very best of luck. Much of the Superstition Mountains are today within the Superstition Mountains Wilderness Area, and
that area is CLOSED TO MINERAL ENTRY so you cannot legally file a mining claim on any mineral deposit within the boundaries of the Wilderness Area. The last I had checked (a number of years ago) there were still a handful of mining claims that had been kept as active, that predate the establishment of the Wilderness Area so were "grandfathered" and if your discovery (or discoveries) do happen to be within one of those OLD mining claims, it might be possible to either buy or lease the claim from the legal owners - that is IF any of those old mining claims have been kept up to date over all these years with all the red tape and difficulties the federal government has given to mining claim owners. (We have lost mining claims over the years due to the constant changes in the annual filing requirements, and I know of MANY other mining claims that were also lost or even discharged by the Feds when they examined the ground and failed to find any kind of mineral deposit that would pass the legal requirement known as the "prudent man test".) So good luck on this idea. (I still think it was a HUGE mistake to make the Superstitions into a "Wilderness area" but then again they didn't make me Dictator yet either...
)
On the other hand, IF your discovery (or discoveries) ARE within the boundaries of a mining claim that is one of the "grandfathered" claims, then it would be claim jumping to attempt to remove any minerals from it. I would suggest a little research at the Arizona state office of the US Department of the Interior, Bureau of Land Management to find out if your site(s) are in fact located on or in a still-active legal Mining Claim. (The BLM maintains the records of Federal Mining Claims)
Blindbowman also wrote:
i think we are just statding in the doorway of a great discovery ...
its foolish to debate who found the sites , but when your kids or grand kids ask where did gram pa go and grand ma says he's out working the lost dutchman mine , you know damn well your out there smileing ear to ear ....
I wish you the best of luck and good fortune on your quest, and hope that you do succeed in finding the treasures that you are seeking. (Whether material like gold or etherial like fame)
Cactusjumper wrote:
Roy,
"If nothing else, it would be a very tenuous presence if ever the Aztecs visited the region, as they seem to have left no visible evidence of even being in that area."
I would agree with the first part of this statement, but I am not sure they "left no visible evidence of even being in that area."
You might find "The Diaries Of John Gregory Bourke" of interest, but even that slight mention of "visible" Aztec presence is "tenuous" at best.
Thank you Joe for the suggested read, but do you know of any scientific study or report that confirms any kind of Aztec presence ever found within the Superstition Mountains of Arizona? I never did find anything to support that contention.
Djui5 wrote:
I find it amusing how everything seems to be in the Superstitions. I really think a lot of old stores were related there because of the abundant and insanely violent Apaches that held the land. I think people figured if someone went back in the Supers looking for treasure, they wouldn't come out alive Sure is a good way to keep your location a secret isn't it?
I have to agree with you Randy that it is funny how so many different treasures and legends are being "translocated" into the Superstition Mountains of Arizona, as if these mysterious, haunting and beautiful mountains do not already have enough legends and treasure stories of their own. I know some treasure writers have deliberately re-located some stories into the Superstitions, and think this is a very dirty little act on their part. It does nothing to lend any credence to their writing.
Whew this reply got VERY long so my apologies for such a long-winded post. Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco
