has montezumas tomb been found ...?

[thrillofthehunt]

Scary!

Lamar,

Gotta tell you....if you thought processes are right. I feel like a potato or some other genetically altered vegetable that has been cultivated for harvest. Genetic Clock?......I am by no means try to debunk your ideas, but I would like to add one of my favorite lines of business, survival and life in general.

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

Lamar Wrote:

"Because the pyramid shape is so perfectly suited to to withstand long term effects of errosion and deteroration, practically all pryamids which were constructed thousands of years ago remain standing today. In order to further understand that the construction of pyramids by many different ancient socitities are totally unrelated to each other, one must first grasp the concept that man is man. We are NOT truly unigue individuals, we are a very highly evolved species, yet as men, we all share certain common genetic markers with one another and with our common ancestors."

There were lots of other societies that didn't build pyramids, but they did build other forms of architecture. Pueblo Indians? How did the pyramid structure have similar religous uses around the world? Temples & tombs on most occaisons.

Genetic markers.....I do believe that a human is a human for the most part, but their evolution is determined by more than genetics. Enviroment and survival come into play, which can influence different cultures in different ways. I would go along the lines of more genetic modifications than predetermined markers.

Typically in mankind's development things were developed to progress the needs of man. A genetic alarm clock would scar the pants off of me, but I also know that there are still tribes out there that are very undevelped compared to the modern world (guess they hit the snooze button a few times).

This same individual uniqueness is further evidenced in the design and construction of pyramids. All ancient pyramid building socitities had pyramids, yet each socititys' pyramids are markedly different from all other ancient socitities. The pyramids of Eygpt had outer shells stuccoed to them, to make them appear as smooth, brillant white structures, while the ones in lower Mexico and Central America were adorned with carvings and outer stairways leading to the top, etc.

Pyramids from around the world are different due to a number of factors which I believe are due to two main reasons. Resources and break down of knowledge. It is logical that pyramids from around the world would be different due to resources in each area. Different building materials would make architecture change to suit its needs. Second, if pyramid building knowledge came from the same source, then the information would have been passed down through the generations until it was actually put into use. Thus it would have slowly changed from the original (the grape vine theory).

The dragons:

Now, we all know that dragons do not exist, and they never did exist. Dragons were a way for early humans to attempt understanding that which they could not understand, and so, all socities of humans incorporated dragons into their tribal legends. The Chinese, Europeans, the Egyptians, all of the Asians, and even the Australian aborigines had tales of dragons. This does not mean that dragons were flying about in those days, what it means is that our common ancestors had a need to apply a focus to their unrealized fears and so, in making the dragon a reality, they were able to place all of the unforeseen bad and evil parts of their existence into one flying creature.

Little Dragons did exist in the forms of lizards & Snakes. I am not sure how everyone else would feel on this particular subject but out of all the animals on earth......reptiles have some of the most intimidating features not to mention that they are some of the best genetically engineered hunters. Societies of old did put many of their peranoid fears into "scary" forms. I however, do not truely understand how this "world wide" fear of dragons came to be if there was never any kind of dragon. It seems that embelishment of reptiles to put visual meaning to fears is aweful coincedental.

The answer is that all of us, as members of the human species, share common thought threads. In other words, we all think alike, inside of the parameters of our society. For example, man discovered the benefits of fire throughout his world, at roughly the same time. This is not to state that one super-human travelled the world over, bringing the knowledge of fire with him, rather, the genetic markers inside of all humans responded at roughly the same time period.

I'm not sure about the think alike.....BB didnt' seem to think like some of the others on this post. In fact, to many folks it made him seem outlandish at times, but it did change or at least make us speculate about other possibilities. Fire isn't to difficult to understand for me anyway. Even today fires are started naturally by our enviroment. Man, being smart enought to put 2 and 2 togther would have noticed from tool making that the sparks from chipping could eventually make fire. It is known that this task was not easy and tribes tended to always "keep a fire burning" so that they didn't have to recreate. Necessity, being the mother of invention, makes me think that cooking food may have had some type of beginnings as a need. Poor food quality would cause sickness. Fully cooking food kills the viral and bacterial bodies in a food. Simply put, it may have been learned to decrease illness and other health problems within a society.

Mankind and all species tend to adapt to the times.......if they don't, we call them extinct!

How is this one for an outlandish theory?

Many ideas put together make think that this scenario is plausable. I believe that there was an Atlantis/Aztlan of some sorts. they may have even been around at the same time and been rival or simply sister nations. Due to some unknown rise in oceanic levels, these nations were all but wiped out almost instantly. We can see signs of this from hundreds of underwater cities that have been discovered today and even the bohemi roads (spelling?). If this is the case, most likely only a few "city dewelers" survived leaving only less developed tribes and exhiled folks remaining. One can imagine that the bulk of the intelectual crowd and even recorded history drown. Civilizations typically began around coastal regions due to a plentiful food source and soil yeilding high level crops. It would have taken the remainder of surving mankind many years to recover and begin building again and since basic concepts (like pyramids) were known they were later used and redeveloped, but each new nation with a different perspective.

I had fun with this post....y'all get in there in tear it up! Happy Holidays.

Sincerely,

JC

 

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[lamar]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear thrillofthehunt;
In responding to my post, you have merely reiterated most of what I had already proposed. For example, you wrote:

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

I agree with you my friend, however, instead of using a quaint saying to get my point across, I prefer to call this phenomenom *Instinctive nature."

There were lots of other societies that didn't build pyramids, but they did build other forms of architecture. Pueblo Indians? How did the pyramid structure have similar religous uses around the world? Temples & tombs on most occaisons.


Perhaps I should have clarified myself a bit further in my previous post, my friend. The Pueblo Indians did not build pyramids simply because they had not yet reached a stage which was technically advanced enough to permit pyramid construction. Pyramid typically started when a society was leaving their individual stone age and advancing to a new era of technology, my friend. The Maya, Artec, Inca, Eygyptians and other societies had already reached the level where they were using advanced stone age tools and rudimentary copper and bronze age ones as well. But, what is more important than the physical aspects of their societies was the fact that they all had a centralized form of government and as such, they had a full time workforce of skilled artisians which they could rely upon. Also, every society which was advanced enough to construct pyramids had also mastered the intricate skills needed to record their languages in the form of cohesive writing, instead of relying on crude symbols to record thoughts and events.

On the other hand, the Greeks did not build pyramids because they advanced at such a rapid rate of speed that they completely bypassed the crude construction forms and dove right into advanced architecture. They learned from the Egyptians, and so they did not feel a need to emulate them, rather they sought to surpass them.

The very same thing can be stated about the Romans, who in their turn, learned from the Greeks, and from whom the Romans sought to surpass in their own architectural achievements during their predominate time on Earth.

Pyramids from around the world are different due to a number of factors which I believe are due to two main reasons. Resources and break down of knowledge. It is logical that pyramids from around the world would be different due to resources in each area. Different building materials would make architecture change to suit its needs. Second, if pyramid building knowledge came from the same source, then the information would have been passed down through the generations until it was actually put into use. Thus it would have slowly changed from the original (the grape vine theory).


Instead of a breakdown of knowledge, why not a general knowledge which encompassed a sphere of intellectual advancement? Inside of this sphere the pyramid as a structure existed, yet embellishments would have been left up to the individual society, to be tailored to the desires and needs of that particular society. That is a MUCH better theory than one which states there were various intercontinental interactions throughout the span of our existence, my friend.

Little Dragons did exist in the forms of lizards & Snakes. I am not sure how everyone else would feel on this particular subject but out of all the animals on earth......reptiles have some of the most intimidating features not to mention that they are some of the best genetically engineered hunters. Societies of old did put many of their peranoid fears into "scary" forms. I however, do not truely understand how this "world wide" fear of dragons came to be if there was never any kind of dragon. It seems that embelishment of reptiles to put visual meaning to fears is aweful coincedental.


I've already covered the fact that dragons were modeled after reptiles, of which lizards and snakes are a part of, my friend. I've also thoroughly covered mans' instinctive fear of reptiles, and so I feel no pressing desire to reiterate myself as to that part of my response.

We know that dragons did not exist, yet there is irrefutable proof of the legends of dragons. Therefore, knowing that dragons did not exist and taking into account the various dragon entities which are part of the lore of many cultures, we can therefore concludethere MUST be some sort of logical explanation, short of saying that it's all merely coincidental.

Fact. Dragons did not exist during mans' existence on Earth, nor at any time within 250,000 years before mans' existence. Fact. Dragons are the source of myths and tales in many cultures, far too many to be explained away as a mere coincidence. Conclusion. There must be something deep inside of the human character which allows humans to design and model a creature from pure fantasy along very well defined lines. I call this *something* a genetic trait or marker.


I'm not sure about the think alike.....BB didnt' seem to think like some of the others on this post. In fact, to many folks it made him seem outlandish at times, but it did change or at least make us speculate about other possibilities. Fire isn't to difficult to understand for me anyway. Even today fires are started naturally by our enviroment. Man, being smart enought to put 2 and 2 togther would have noticed from tool making that the sparks from chipping could eventually make fire. It is known that this task was not easy and tribes tended to always "keep a fire burning" so that they didn't have to recreate. Necessity, being the mother of invention, makes me think that cooking food may have had some type of beginnings as a need. Poor food quality would cause sickness. Fully cooking food kills the viral and bacterial bodies in a food. Simply put, it may have been learned to decrease illness and other health problems within a society.


I was not stating how fire was DISCOVERED, rather I was stating that mankind came to realize the BENEFITS and also the dangers, associated with fire around the same time. Here is a prime example of genetic traits, my friend:

Man, being smart enought to put 2 and 2 togther would have noticed from tool making that the sparks from chipping could eventually make fire.

I wholeheartedly agree with you! But, the question is, WHAT made man smart enough to be able to 2 and 2 together in the first place? And WHAT made man smart enough to be able to fashion tools from stones in the first place? This is what the genetics markers do! They allow future generations to achieve more than the generations prior to them! The intellectual sphere kept enlarging and eventually man learned how to fashion crude stone implements, then harness the benefits of fire, so on through time!

I believe that there was an Atlantis/Aztlan of some sorts. they may have even been around at the same time and been rival or simply sister nations. Due to some unknown rise in oceanic levels, these nations were all but wiped out almost instantly. We can see signs of this from hundreds of underwater cities that have been discovered today and even the bohemi roads (spelling?). If this is the case, most likely only a few "city dewelers" survived leaving only less developed tribes and exhiled folks remaining. One can imagine that the bulk of the intelectual crowd and even recorded history drown. Civilizations typically began around coastal regions due to a plentiful food source and soil yeilding high level crops. It would have taken the remainder of surving mankind many years to recover and begin building again and since basic concepts (like pyramids) were known they were later used and redeveloped, but each new nation with a different perspective.

There was no Atlantis ot Aztlan, my friend. We know this from mapping the floors of our oceans, therefore the individual societies of mankind did not all learn from one *super-human* breed of our species. The answer is much older and much more intricate, my friend. it lies in the DNA which we are all comprised of.

Consider that the world is approximately 4.5 BILLION years old! That is a a longgggggggggggg time! Now, we know that DNA, which are the building blocks of life, has been around for almost that long, approximately 4 BILLION years, to be exact! DNA is altering itself constantly as it has been for the entire 4 billions of it's existence on the planet. Housed inside of the DNA chains are a vast array genetic markers, some of which control evolution of the species of Earth, including man.

Evolution is most often considered to be the physical form, with little or no regard being given to other forms of evolution, such as intellect, or the arts, or philosophies, or a host of other genetic traits which are controlled as thought processes instead of physical attributes. Man did not originate at a place called Atlantis, man originated from the same gene pool that every other creature sprung from, past and present, and we are an irrevocable part of that pool.

The DNA from creatures lost ago extinct may be found locked away in our genetic DNA code and also locked away inside of this code is our ability to think creatively, and with each succeeding generation, this DNA code expands a tiny bit, to be passed on to the next generation.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Good afternoon Lamar: We do have bit of differences, which makes it very interesting..

DNA, as is presently understood, is a product / result of past experiences of survivors.. It cannot explain the future advances of man since they are yet to evolve. unless you choose the "Holistic Universe" theory where everything exists simultaneously, past, present, and future. This of course could explain your theory.

How is this for being impartial? he he he ...
.
Today they are constructing computers that can teach themselves to think and solve tasks. Under these circumstances, What is the basic difference between an electrical machine and man, also an electrical machine? Why does man have a built in DNA and a machine none, or do they? Perhaps it is just that we have no way of measuring or detecting this yet.

As for Dragons, first what is your definition of a Dragon? if it is a large reptile, then the komodo dragons fill the bill nicely, being 10 - 15 ft long and weighing hundreds of pounds.. If they exist there, why couldn't they have existed elsewhere. For primitive man, they are / were quite formidable.

I have experimented somewhat in Telepathy, quite successfully in one prominent case. To me it is only a simple step to believe that people in different areas of the world / universe can have simultaneous identical thoughts, since a thought is nothing more than an electrical impulse of a certain frequency which can be easily picked up by another tuning in to that identical frequency..

SO, one person thinking on a problem may well influence another in a distant place working on that same problem that is consciously, or not, locking in on the transmitted frequency and the problem, and so apparently develops an identical thought simultaneously. .

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Peerless67]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Good afternoon Lamar: We do have bit of differences, which makes it very interesting..

DNA, as is presently understood, is a product / result of past experiences of survivors.. It cannot explain the future advances of man since they are yet to evolve. unless you choose the "Holistic Universe" theory where everything exists simultaneously, past, present, and future. This of course could explain your theory.

How is this for being impartial? he he he ...
.
Today they are constructing computers that can teach themselves to think and solve tasks. Under these circumstances, What is the basic difference between an electrical machine and man, also an electrical machine? Why does man have a built in DNA and a machine none, or do they? Perhaps it is just that we have no way of measuring or detecting this yet.

As for Dragons, first what is your definition of a Dragon? if it is a large reptile, then the komodo dragons fill the bill nicely, being 10 - 15 ft long and weighing hundreds of pounds.. If they exist there, why couldn't they have existed elsewhere. For primitive man, they are / were quite formidable.

I have experimented somewhat in Telepathy, quite successfully in one prominent case. To me it is only a simple step to believe that people in different areas of the world / universe can have simultaneous identical thoughts, since a thought is nothing more than an electrical impulse of a certain frequency which can be easily picked up by another tuning in to that identical frequency..

SO, one person thinking on a problem may well influence another in a distant place working on that same problem that is consciously, or not, locking in on the transmitted frequency and the problem, and so apparently develops an identical thought simultaneously. .

Don Jose de La Mancha

RDT, I was about to say the same thing

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Roy,

Hope all is well with you and Beth, and that you had a great Thanksgiving.

"I also regret that our amigo Blindbowman has quit treasure hunting and gone on to greener pastures, and agree with you that despite how far-out some of his theories struck me, he did get us (or me anyway) to take another look at many things and do a lot of fact-checking."

While I believed almost nothing that bb ever wrote, he always kindled a spark of curiosity, which led me to my bookshelf or other interesting sources. He generated many interesting conversations, with his saner posts, and I always benefited from those exchanges. That was especially true when you were involved.

I believe I have voiced/written that thought more than a few times here.

That being said, I can't imagine that I am the only one that believes that bb is still posting on this Forum.

Lamar,

Excellent posts on pyramids.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Greetings,

Thrillofthehunt wrote:

Next question: If the pyramids did originate from one area, how did it spread. Sea going vessels of the time were not as they are today or even 400 hundred years ago. It seems to me that it would have almost been a suicide mission to try and sail the Atlantic ocean. Set asside weather, just hauling enough water would be seem impossible and that is assuming that they could catch enough fish to eat for the long journey. How could ancient people have pulled off such an incredible journey, not to just one continent, but to several continents.

Well I respectfully disagree about the capabilities of sea going vessels of ancient times vs more modern versions. Ships of over 100 tons were fairly common in the "classical" age, crossing of oceans might seem like a stretch however we know that an ancient Greek manuscript dating to the first century BC called the "Periplus Erythraeum" describes how to sail from Africa to India and back, across the open Indian ocean taking advantage of the prevailing "trade" winds both ways. The distance involved is greater than the distance from Africa to America. I am in disagreement with our friend Lamar on this subject as well, for we know that the ancient seafarers were bringing cloves from the Moluccas to Egypt
<map showing approx route of ancient spice trade>

(We might take note here that the SIlk road only became important AFTER the demise of the best seafarers of the ancient world had stopped bringing the spices and silks by sea)

The pyramids are among the most striking structures ever built by man, and were always impressive to foreign visitors. It is not much of a stretch for us to imagine how ancient traders, visiting a land that had impressive pyramids for the purpose of selling spices, salt, dyes, etc to carry stories of the pyramids to other lands that they visited.

I have posted this before, but there are pyramids in Egypt and it is possible to show a progression of improvements in the development there, that the Egyptians seem to have "invented" (or duplicated) pyramids. South of Egypt is the land of Nubia (the land of gold) and we find pyramids there as well. The pyramids of Nubia are different from those of Egypt, built in a different style and with different materials (even the tomb location is different) but no one doubts that the IDEA of building pyramids got transmitted from Egypt to Nubia. We then can look farther afield, and find pyramids in Rome (Yes ROMAN pyramids!

<pyramid of Cestius in Rome>

...and even though Rome lies across the Mediterranean sea from Egypt, that it was the IDEA of building pyramids that got transmitted. Now look still farther afield, and we find pyramids in China! They are diffferent from those in Egypt, most being built of earth (like those in the USA of the Mound Builders) yet few historians would claim that the IDEA of building pyramids had not gotten transmitted to China. There are pyramids in Korea,

<Andong pyramid in Korea>

...and again they are different from those in China or Egypt, yet no one seems to doubt that they did not invent pyramids in Korea but that the IDEA of building pyramids got transmitted to them.

Then we look across the Atlantic and find yet more pyramids - but we are told this MUST be "independent invention" even though there are such obvious similarities such as the baselines of the Pyramid of the Sun in Mexico and the Great Pyramid being nearly identical. Are we so sure that there could not have been contact between ancient cultures?

Lamar wrote:

Blindbowman caused me consider that research in the area of mental health still has a long way to go. I have no doubt that the poor man was a raving lunatic, but on the other hand, I am sure that he provided hours of entertainment at social gatherings. His *theories* were an atrocious blend of popular mysticism combined with psuedo-history. Eventually his posts became so disjointed that I had to stop reading his posts, much to my dismay, for I feel that everybody has a positive contribution to add to a topic, no matter how hidden it may seem to be.

A "raving lunatic"? I must respectfully disagree with you on this even though BB made some outlandish statements, for in general it is not possible to reason with a raving lunatic, yet Blindbowman could be reasoned with as is evidenced by numerous discussions.

Lamar wrote:

To continue with the topic. It has often been surmised that pyramid building on various continents provides positive proof of intercontinental inter-action between races of humans, or at the very least, adds weight to the theory. This is not necessarily true, however. Many tribes have built pyramids at one point or other during their existence on Earth and the best reason for this is also the simplest reason to understand.

It is simply because a pyramid is the easiest structure one can build. It requires practically no math or feats or engineering, my friends.<snip>

Thrillofthehunt has already addressed this point by one example, the Pueblo Indians. If it were simply a natural thing for humans to start building pyramids once they reached a certain level of technical sophistication, then all cultures would follow the pattern yet this is certainly NOT the case. Do we find Pygmy tribes building pyramids deep in the African jungle? No. Why didn't the Greeks build pyramids? What about the Anasazi? They were certainly sophisticated enough and built impressive stone structures. We could go down the list with numerous cultures, including many that had knowledge of pyramids yet these cultures did not choose to build pyramids. It is obvious that building pyramids is not simply something that people just naturally do, they must have a REASON to build them, and we do not have evidence to prove that pyramid building was independently invented anywhere other than Egypt and even there the evidence only shows a progression of how they went from building bench type tombs to pyramids - they may have gotten the IDEA from elsewhere and probably did!

I am not proposing that there were huge fleets of ships crossing and criss-crossing the oceans in the dim past, but that there was some level of contact, very likely small scale and highly intermittent, unlike what followed the Age of Discovery, for geographic and navigational knowledge was not widely published by the best seafarers - rather for them, such knowledge was considered a state secret. I could site a couple of examples here - for instance the famous expedition of Queen Hatshepsut to Punt - involved only five quite small vessels, open decked with perhaps a dozen oarsmen, yet this was such a "big thing" in their time it was similar to our voyages to the Moon. The famous "fleet" or "navy" of King Solomon was a grand total of twelve ships! So we are talking about expeditions of one, two or three ships perhaps once in three or four years, not anything vast or likely to leave much in the way of evidence of their visits. The recent discoveries of Robert Ballard and others have fairly well put the lie to the old idea that the ancients only sailed along shorelines and followed the coasts, which any sailor can attest is the MOST dangerous route and area to be sailing in - the ancients were fully capable of crossing the open seas and we know today that they did.

Lamar also wrote;

Look at dogs. They are all dogs, yet they come in many shapes, sizes and colors.<snip>They all bark and they all wag their tails.

Your point is taken amigo, yet if we do look at dogs we find that they do NOT all bark, for example the "Singing Dogs" of New Guinea rather howl/roar and never or extremely rarely bark, as is the case with Huskies; we might also point to the Barkless Basenji dogs that also do not bark. Dogs are a good example of how different each "tribe" (or breed) can become over time. If we follow the logic as you proposed for pyramid building and dragons, then all dogs would hunt with their noses and all dogs would bark, regardless of what else they might have as their job.

Lamar also wrote:

Now, we all know that dragons do not exist, and they never did exist.

I must respectfully disagree with you on this point as well amigo, for you are classifying dragons as some kind of mythical animal rather than what is truly the case - that dragons became "mythical" through the agency of human communications and MIS-communications, specifically in translation errors. The dragons of the Bible can be traced to Nile crocodiles, very much as the equally "mythical" Unicorns can be easily traced to garbled stories of Asian one-horned Rhinos. (read Marco Polo's report and disappointment, very similar to the ancient Greek explorer {Megasthenes if memory serves) description - that Unicorns were "exceedingly ugly", "very dangerous" and "covered in armored plates") Just my opinion of course but I am convinced that ALL "myths" of Dragons relate back to very real and very dangerous animals, specifically crocodiles, alligators and as our amigo Real de Tayopa proposed Komodo dragons. It is also quite possible that we have "tribal memories" from our distant past of human encounters with such animals as Megalania lizards, a huge and carnivorous reptile of Australia, or the "terror birds" like the Teratorns, which led directly to tales of dragons.

<The Nile Crocodile, the "Dragon" of the Old Testament>

Lamar also wrote:

There was no Atlantis ot Aztlan, my friend. We know this from mapping the floors of our oceans, therefore the individual societies of mankind did not all learn from one *super-human* breed of our species.

I must again respectfully disagree amigo, for we know less about the sea floors than we know of the surface of the Moon. The stories of Atlantis and Aztlan (as well as numerous flood myths including Noah, Gilgamesh, Deukalion etc) very probably point to Ice Age cultures that were destroyed by the massive floods and climactic upheaval that occurred at the end of the last Ice Age. The recent discoveries of sunken settlements off the British Islands, Israel, the Black Sea and elsewhere are proof that human beings were living close to the sea during the Ice Age and not as simple hunter-gatherers, and the evidence is mounting that the Ice Age ended with global catastrophe. I doubt that anyone will ever find a sunken ruin with the name "Atlantis" carved in the gates, but it is clear that there were human cultures living in (relatively) advanced societies when the Ice Age came to an end, which cultures did not survive the sudden changes. It should come as no surprise that stories of the "ancients" should have gotten passed down through the centuries, allegorized and exaggerated perhaps in the endless re-tellings, but in truth a record of a vast human and natural catastrophe.

HOLA mi amigo Joe! Thanks for the kind words. We are making progress here and things are looking up. I hope that you and your family also had a great holiday and feast. Cactusjumper wrote:

I can't imagine that I am the only one that believes that bb is still posting on this Forum.

Really? Would you care to point out a thread or two where you suspect that our amigo might be posting under another identity? I would not be too surprised, but a little puzzled as to why he might decide to post under another name.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear real de Tayopa;
Thank you for confirming my theory my friend. You wrote:

"DNA, as is presently understood, is a product / result of past experiences of survivors.. It cannot explain the future advances of man since they are yet to evolve. unless you choose the "Holistic Universe" theory where everything exists simultaneously, past, present, and future. This of course could explain your theory.

Especially this part of the statement is pertanent to my theory:

"DNA, as is presently understood, is a product / result of past experiences of survivors..
This is why people the world over do the things they do. All living creatures are comprised of DNA and what is DNA? DNA is a product/result of past experiences! A nice summation to my theory, my old friend. Also, please note that I said nothing about being able to predict the future, only that a very large number of past events and technological advancements can be explained theoretically due to the collective past experiences since the beginning of life on the planet.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[thrillofthehunt]

Might be on the same page, Lamar

Lamar,

That is what I am thinking with respect to a collective knowledge. At some point it makes since that these societies may have been one or at least around at the same time. Instinct may be passed on with DNA, but knowledge is learned and must be passed down to stay alive. There are many dead languages around the world that no one can now accurately understand due to the fact that the language was not passed down.

OK.....after that trip down tangent lane, back to Montezuma. The main reason I wanted to bring all of that information to the forefront was to also point out that there could be general possibilities to how a society might hide their gold and treasure. By no stretch is hard to believe that the Aztecs might travel back to a place that they were once familar with. Most likely, since their homeland was being taken over by the spanish, they would have headed to a strong hold where they would feel safe and know the land even from past history. Are there any other civilazations out there that have been driven from their current homeland and headed to their lands of old for safety? Hope this doesn't sound like a stupid questions, but I think taking a look at other cultures that have had the same problem might shed some light on the problem.
Another quick question.....if the Aztecs did take their treasure back to their homeland, how long had they been gone and what would the condition of past living quarters been like when they returned? Would it be hard to find? We hear stories all the time about treasures hunters that have found lost mines, caches, ship wrecks and can't find their way back due to land marks changing or just memory issues.
To me, if there were such living quarters as the seven caves, and whatever else was built in conjuction then it would be too hard to find them again and chances are that the caves would have changed much since they were abandoned. These are specutlation and questions so I hope someone has the time to educate me on this.

JC

 

[lamar]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear thrillofthehunt;

You stated:
Instinct may be passed on with DNA, but knowledge is learned and must be passed down to stay alive.

I agree and disagree with that statement my friend. Instincts are passed along through the DNA strand, however knowledge is mostly not passed down to our descendants. To do so would take us five lifetimes dedicated merely to the passing down of knowledge my friend. Also, if the human brain were not continually evolving, there would be no progress whatsoever and therefore no knowledge to pass down. In other words, if the human were not continually growing intellectually we would never advance, instead we would stagnate as a species and perish.

What we do pass down is the increased ability to reason and to solve problems. Consider, my friend, all of the knowledge you've accquired since birth. To pass along this knowledge would be an impossible task, therefore you choose the most pertanent bits and pieces to pass along. This is your ability to reason cohesively and this is what you are passing on to future generations. Again, your list of choices is determined by your DNA strand.

Because mankind has evolved and is continuing to do so is proof that our continued existence on Earth is due to the DNA strand being continually modified and expanded. If this did not happen we would have never left the caves and we would never have made any forward progress as a species.

The knowledge which we pass on to our future generations has nothing to do with what we attempt to teach our youth, rather our knowledge is locked away inside of our individual DNA and it is this which gets passed along. One way to visualize our experiences and knowledge is to concieve these as a balloon which is capable to expanding infinitely. With each passing generation we add a breath of air to the balloon and in doing so cause the balloon to expand incrementally.

Yet we can proceed beyond the limits of this balloon, my friend. The walls of the balloon are the extreme limits of our ability to reason and solve problems and we cannot go beyond them, therefore we must search for a solution to any given problem inside of the knowledge balloon. Because we cannot exceed the limits of the balloon, our solutions therefore become predictable.

For example, consider this situation:
Problem: I have a vast amount of gold that I do not want anyone to be aware of and I want it remain safe.
Solution: I bury it in the backyard late at night, next to big pecan tree, when nobody is watching.

Why did I do this instead of burying the treasure 25 miles outside of town, my friend? Because of natural instinct, I am COMPELLED to bury it close by, in an area which only would think of to secret the treasure and one where I could watch it constantly. Because I am a human, my ability to reason would state that if I buried it away from where I live then any number of variables might occur. If I buried it outside of town, then what would happen if a developer bought the property and built a subdivision over my cache, or worse still, discover the cache whilst excavating a foundation? What if I forgot where I buried the treasure at in the future? What if my treasure map becomes lost or destroyed? The list of possible disasters becomes almost infinite, therefore my human nature would compel me to dig a hole in my backyard and place the treasure horde there.

So, my friend, now we can understand that physical interaction between the various members of our species is not a requirement, merely because our DNA assures mutual interaction at the microbiological level. In other words, the Egyptians did not need to travel to South America in order for the Inca to build pyramids, the instinct to build a pyramid was already locked away inside of the DNA strand of the Incans, therefore physical interaction was not necessary.

The Eygptians did not row across the Atlantic in order to teach the Incas how to construct a pyramid, nor did the Incas row to Egypt, nor did aliens come from another system and give the Incas the knowledge, nor did the Incas use any form of telepathy. Something locked away in the DNA code of the Incas COMPELLED them to start constructing monuments at a certain stage in their development as a society and something inside of the DNA code COMPELLED them to construct a monument in the shape of a pyramid.

The similiarities which we share with one another as members of the human species far outstrips the differences which we have as individual members of our species. Because all humans are so similiar in nature, we can accurately predict what another human will be compelled to do in any given situation merely because that is most likely the same thing that we would be compelled to do, given the same set of variables. This is because we all share the same basic DNA code and it's only the minute variations in this code that gives each of us our individuality.

Please not misunderstand the context of my discussion, my friends. I am NOT stating that we can accurately predict FUTURE events, merely that we are able to accurately predict PAST events with a very high degree of certainty.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[thrillofthehunt]

Mist that last post, Lamar

Lamar,
Sorry, I missed this post before I started writing the next one, but I do have some questions for some the statements that you made. Keep in mind that I do not pretend to be as well read as the folks on this forum and typically rely on personal thought and question asking to gain knowledge. I in no way am saying that this happened or that happened or someone is right and someone is wrong. Honestly, I don’t believe anyone has enough answers to material posted on this site to take that position.

Lamar wrote:
Instead of a breakdown of knowledge, why not a general knowledge which encompassed a sphere of intellectual advancement? Inside of this sphere the pyramid as a structure existed, yet embellishments would have been left up to the individual society, to be tailored to the desires and needs of that particular society. That is a MUCH better theory than one which states there were various intercontinental interactions throughout the span of our existence, my friend.

SPHERE OF KNOWLEDGE or Instictive nature – Are you meaning these two ideas to be one in the same? Instincts come with the package….knowledge is learned, or at least that is way that I know it. Instincts live in the middle brain and much like they were 1000’s of years ago. Fight or Flight being one of them, taking your first breath after coming form the womb and searching for the meal from your mother’s breast. INSTINCTIVE! Pyramids….learned. Not in the middle brain. I am 36 years old, live in a modern era of knowledge and have a degree and I still don’t know how to build a pyramid. I have seen many documentary television programs on it and from what I can tell even they aren’t sure exactly how some the pyramids were built. You said when a civilization hits a certain level they then are able to progress to this stage as if they graduate from a portion their DNA to suddenly being to activate a latent area of “Instincts” due to their advancement. Simply not true….they learn how do things by studying the past or by knowledge from another person or civilization.

There was no Atlantis ot Aztlan, my friend. We know this from mapping the floors of our oceans, therefore the individual societies of mankind did not all learn from one *super-human* breed of our species. The answer is much older and much more intricate, my friend. it lies in the DNA which we are all comprised of.

First of all you keep mentioning a “super-human” breed…..I have never mentioned, nor anyone else on this thread, that folks form Atlantis or Aztlan were “super-human”. They were simply another civilization in history of man. Mapping the sea floor – When you say map……exactly how detailed is this map? Does it show the 200+ already discovered sunken cities? And if so, why would it not be plausible that one or the bulk could not have been the civilization of Atlantis? As far as our DNA goes, humans have developed primarily in one area. The ability to learn. Our brains have gotten bigger and more complex since the early stages of evolution allowing us to learn more efficiently. In all honesty, physically we have deteriorated in overall strength and physical ability due to our own lack of preditors.

Evolution is most often considered to be the physical form, with little or no regard being given to other forms of evolution, such as intellect, or the arts, or philosophies, or a host of other genetic traits which are controlled as thought processes instead of physical attributes. Man did not originate at a place called Atlantis, man originated from the same gene pool that every other creature sprung from, past and present, and we are an irrevocable part of that pool.

I do not believe that man sprout on Atlantis and that is how we are who we are today. I agree with the fact that man sprouted from same gene pool as all other species, but to say that there was not other civilizations or the possibilities of other societies would seem to fall short. We find “lost” things all the time. Some of these things hidden by the jungle, sand or even in plain view.

You also spoke of the genetic traits of intellect, arts and philosophies. Can you point me in the direction to locate where science has mapped out the gene pool to include these traits? I will agree that some humans are more apt to be talented at one thing or another, but I would also spectulate that to be the same as early man. Doubtful that everyone painted on the cave wall.

I have really enjoyed this conversation so far…..I hope that It continues to be constructive and thought provoking. Y’all have a great week and happy holidays!

JC

 

[thrillofthehunt]

75% Agreeable

Lamar,

On to your newest post. Hope you are having a great start to you new week. Your last post was most agreeable until this point.

So, my friend, now we can understand that physical interaction between the various members of our species is not a requirement, merely because our DNA assures mutual interaction at the microbiological level. In other words, the Egyptians did not need to travel to South America in order for the Inca to build pyramids, the instinct to build a pyramid was already locked away inside of the DNA strand of the Incans, therefore physical interaction was not necessary.

Pyramids are not locked away in our DNA. The ability to learn and problem solve is. You stated that. If pyramids are the longest lasting structures on earth, why don’t we build them or use their basic geometry anymore? It seems or new architecture is weaker than that of the past. I am more apt to go down the path of telepathy and or some other form of communication before believing that I have pyramid architecture in my DNA. Here is an interesting question for you to ponder. If every generation puts a breath in the balloon of DNA, how many generations past to finally put the architectural structure of a pyramid into DNA? Now here is the real stumper, If every generation that came from this pyramid knowledge put a breath of air into the DNA ballon, there ought to be literally thousands upon thousands of pyramids dotting the earth. You also might want to consider that those folks building the pyramids that we know today were slaves and had no idea what the point of putting one stone her and another there was going to end up as. So I don’t think the pyramid knowledge was included in many DNA’s out there.

The Eygptians did not row across the Atlantic in order to teach the Incas how to construct a pyramid, nor did the Incas row to Egypt, nor did aliens come from another system and give the Incas the knowledge, nor did the Incas use any form of telepathy. Something locked away in the DNA code of the Incas COMPELLED them to start constructing monuments at a certain stage in their development as a society and something inside of the DNA code COMPELLED them to construct a monument in the shape of a pyramid.

Lamar, compadre, I agree that folks didn’t sail the ocean in hopes of finding someone to give their knowledge of pyramids. Telepathy, I am not gonna touch that with a ten foot pole due to its inherit possibilities. Again, however, there are no pyramids in the DNA structure. This knowledge was passed down verbally or in written format somewhere. It also may be that other shapes in the environment were mimicked. We do this all time today.

The similiarities which we share with one another as members of the human species far outstrips the differences which we have as individual members of our species. Because all humans are so similiar in nature, we can accurately predict what another human will be compelled to do in any given situation merely because that is most likely the same thing that we would be compelled to do, given the same set of variables. This is because we all share the same basic DNA code and it's only the minute variations in this code that gives each of us our individuality.

Please not misunderstand the context of my discussion, my friends. I am NOT stating that we can accurately predict FUTURE events, merely that we are able to accurately predict PAST events with a very high degree of certainty.

How humans react to different situations merely depends on decision making of the variables and human limitations. I agree on the human race being for the most part very similar and our ability to learn being similar, however, decisions are made based on our personal experiences and limitations. Example: When my wife sees a cochroach she screams, jumps up on a chair and yells for me to come and kill it. Why? She out ways it by 1000 times, she is also faster and stronger than this creature. It can’t bite her or really harm her in any way, so why does she have this reaction? Is it in her DNA? If so, why is not in mine? I just step on the bug. I believe this debunks your idea of humans react the same way. Humans are problem solvers using their experience and their surroundings to solve problems. Lastly, you said predict past events. Not sure what this means can you please clarify. (We can learn of past events, but precicting I leave to the future.
Once again….great minds on this site….I thank you all for letting me participate. I feel like I learn more here than I did in college. I would have paid twice my tution to learn from folks like you instead of the folks that I did during college.

JC

 

[lamar]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear thrillofthehunt;
My friend, formal education does not enter into the equation at all. I am perhaps the least educated person whom I personally know of, yet I am able to hold my own in a broad range of topics.

Now, on to our discussion!
First, as humans are wont to do, we try to explain certain phenomenom which initially seems to surpass all attempts at plausible explanation. Since we've started on the subject of pyramid construction, let's continue along this vein for a bit.

We can gather together all of the phyiscal facts from research which was performed on existing pyramidial structures which were built by ancient societies. We can then take all of this gathered information and place it into the proper perspective, ie. a orderly progression of events, if you will.

After examining all of the available evidence one could easily conclude that all pyramids were constructed during a certain phase during the developmental growth of all pyramid building societies. This fact holds true with all of the pyramid builders and it is only one of several common threads which they all share.

Now it becomes necessary to understand why these societies felt compelled to construct pyramids at this one certain stage in each of their developmental periods. We can search for physical evidence of inter-continental relationships between societies, however we quickly approach a dead-end, as there simply does not exist any physical evidence to support this theory, therefore we must look for other theories.

As an aside, during the research portion of our project, we've discovered that each pyramid building society started and terminated their pyramid construction at very different time periods. For example, the Egyptians started constructing their earliest pyramids around 2700 years BC. The Mayas started their construction phase around 500BC, the Incas around the 14the century AD, and the Aztecs around the 12th century AD and the Pumapunku structure in present-day Bolivia around 550AD.

To sum this up, pyramid construction did not start or halt during any single calendar span of time, rather, it started and halted during each individual societys' technological calendar of events. We can therefore rule out interaction between societies as a cause of pyramid construction as the time which had passed between each societies construction phase is simply too great of a span for this theory to be considered as a likely cause.

Next, we must consider the theory of random coincidence. In order for this theory to work, there must be a few pyramids in existence, however the amount of existing pyramids are simply staggering. If there were, say, ten, fifteen, or even twenty pyramids scattered throughout the world, then the theory of random coincidence might be a possiblity, however there are literally HUNDREDS of pyramids scattered throughout the world, which reduces the chance of random coincidence to zero.

Also, another factor which must be taken into consideration is the REASON why pyramids were built, and without exception they are all connected to the death, burial and re-birth concept. This is yet another common thread running through pyramid construction.

Now, having all of the available evidence in front of us, and being able to rule out coincidence and interactions as possible causes, we are left with a very big question mark. My theory is that each society, upon reaching a certain technological, spiritual and intellectual stage in their growth, felt compelled, either by instinct, or reasoning, or whatever the word we wish to use, to start constructing pyramids as everlasting monuments to show the world that the society building the pyramid had reached a point in their technological advancements and commenced constructing monuments as proof to future generations that they had existed. A sort of a very large, very labor intensive and very time consuming "Kilroy was here" as it were.

Now, if it were JUST the pyramids which fits nicely into my theory, then I would state that it I developed a theory solely for the purpose of providing a plausible reason for the phenomena surrounding pyramid construction, however this is not the case. In order to prove that the theory stands up under close scrutiny, let's now look at a very common item, the bow.

The bow and arrow has been around almost as long as mankind has, and yet how did man first CONCIEVE the concept of the bow? We know that man discovered the bow right after he discovered the spear, which is the crudest, most easily constructed and easiest to use weapon in existence, short of picking up a rock or a log and using them as clubs.

After the spear was discovered and man learned how to throw it with some accuracy, the very next thing he did was to figure out a way to throw it further. Thus was born the bow and arrow. By scaling down the size of the spear and adding feathers to the tail end for stabilization, ancient man now had a very accurate weapon which could be produced by practically any natural material with little skill and effort.

Now, let us consider this. EVERY society of man has developed the bow and arrow and they all did so as individual tribes! How do we know this? Because until the 1960s there existed tribes of humans who had never been in contact with modern man and without exception they had reached the stage in their development cycle where they were manufacturing and using bows to hunt animals.

And WHO showed these stone age civilizations living in the wilds of the Amazon the art of bow making? Nobody showed them, they discovered the bow completely on their own, in their own time, as their own development had reached a point where they were COMPELLED to discover the bow. We cannot explain away the idea that every tribe of human beings developed the bow as a mere coincidence because EVERY tribe discovered the bow, albeit at vastly different times on the calendar scale. There was no interaction between societies, as there was no stone age Albert Einstein who invented the bow then passed on that knowledge throughout the world. It did not happen that way and it could not happen that way.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[thrillofthehunt]

90% Agreeablility

Lamar,

Well written response and ideas, however if you are trying to somehow tie this into pyramids being in our DNA I'm still lost. Reason: Bow are arrows are tool of hunters and secondary warfare. I can imagine that when the bow is was in its design phases. I imagine that some sort of animal traps where somewhere in the history going into the bow and arrow. I tree bent over with a rope and trigger mechanism on the ground. Once tripped the tree sprang to its natural position and wa la.....caught animal. Another primitive idea may have sprung from hunters as they wandered the jungle in search of food. tree branches being bent back by the guy in front smacked the guy in back. The force of action and reaction. It wasn't long before these primitive folks figured out what we know today as leverage. Leverage was used in many different primitive ideas. In my opinion, without the knowledge of leverage, tribes sooner or later would have gone extinct or be taken over by tribes that were technologically advanced.

I would like to revisit another one of your ideas of no intercontinental communication. You said that there was no intercontinental communication. I believe even if there was, it wouldn't have been enough to communicate pyramids. But, I do think that at one point these tribes that were now on other sides of the worlds from one another did have contact in one more generalized area. Since the begining of man's history we have slowed tried to "take over" more of our planet by exploration. Who is to say that these tribes and civilizations didn't all spawn from the same era and civilization? If there were some type of catastrophic event, all of each tribes parties would have been greatly lowered and they would have most likely traveled to greener pastuers. I think the communication between tribes started when the tribes where all in contact due to their locale and or methods of travel, wether it be the bering strait or vessels that we don't have record of. That is why we have pyramids on most continents from different time periods.That is also why they are used for relegious beliefs and not something else. If it were me building a pyramid I would do it as a strom shelter. Look at what these pyramids have endured over the 100's of years they have stood.

Thanks again for the conversation and fun in thought.

Sincerely,

JC

 

[thrillofthehunt]

Here are some other posts for TN's

Lamar,

Here are some other posts from TN's. Let me knwo what you think.

Post Posted by the Beeb goes on
There are a lot of OOP (out of place) objects. The elephant carving and glyphs of giraffes from the Olmec era in South America. The fact that the zodiac is identical in the middle east and South America (from way back), except for the substituation of local animals for some symbols.

The one I like best is the confirmed presence of cocaine in an ancient egyptian mummy who died sometime BC. Coca only grows in the Andes above 6000 feet.

People were crossing the ocean long, long before the currently accepted dates.

The people who determine accepted history can really piss you off. They are tethered by their peers and how they were taught...if they go out of bounds they are marked as loonies and their grants dry up...the system sucks.
Post Mr. Adventure
Or what about the petroglyphs in the SW of a Mamoth, although the sceintists claim it is impossible as they all died out prior to man. Heck, what percentage of ancient artifacts have been found? Abesnce of evidence works both ways.
Post by Mr. Adventure
As for comparing Aztecs to Egyptians well we have worship of a sun Deity, an advanced knowledge of the solar system and solar calendars, pyramids, mummification and let us not forget the Reed Boats.

Post by Mr Adventure
It is interesting to note the comparisons and see the similarities. And lets not forget enculturation where one group moves in absorbers other cultures and peoples and adopting some of their stories, legends and customs. And here is where the boom is to ancient treasure hunting!

Post by Bill
excerpt from Archeological Coverups by David Hatcher Childress
Perhaps the most amazing suppression of all is the excavation of an Egyptian tomb by the Smithsonian itself in Arizona. A lengthy front page story of the PHOENIX GAZETTE on 5 April 1909 (follows this article), gave a highly detailed report of the discovery and excavation of a rock-cut vault by an expedition led by a Professor S.A. Jordan of the Smithsonian. The Smithsonian, however, claims to have absolutely no knowledge of the discovery or its discoverers.

The World Explorers Club decided to check on this story by calling the Smithsonian in Washington, D.C., though we felt there was little chance of getting any real information. After speaking briefly to an operator, we were transferred to a Smithsonian staff archaeologist, and a woman's voice came on the phone and identified herself.

I told her that I was investigating a story from a 1909 Phoenix newspaper article about the Smithsonian Institution's having excavated rock-cut vaults in the Grand Canyon where Egyptian artefacts had been discovered, and whether the Smithsonian Institution could give me any more information on the subject.

"Well, the first thing I can tell you, before we go any further," she said, "is that no Egyptian artefacts of any kind have ever been found in North or South America. Therefore, I can tell you that the Smithsonian Institute has never been involved in any such excavations." She was quite helpful and polite but, in the end, knew nothing. Neither she nor anyone else with whom I spoke could find any record of the discovery or either G.E. Kinkaid and Professor S.A. Jordan. While it cannot be discounted that the entire story is an elaborate newspaper hoax, the fact that it was on the front page, named the prestigious Smithsonian Institution, and gave a highly detailed story that went on for several pages, lends a great deal to its credibility. It is hard to believe such a story could have come out of thin air. Is the Smithsonian Institution covering up an archaeological discovery of immense importance? If this story is true it would radically change the current view that there was no transoceanic contact in pre-Columbian times, and that all American Indians, on both continents, are descended from Ice Age explorers who came across the Bering Strait. (Any information on G.E. Kinkaid and Professor S.A. Jordan, or their alleged discoveries, that readers may have would be greatly appreciated.....write to Childress at the World Explorers Club at the above address.)

Is the idea that ancient Egyptians came to the Arizona area in the ancient past so objectionable and preposterous that it must be covered up? Perhaps the Smithsonian Institution is more interested in maintaining the status quo than rocking the boat with astonishing new discoveries that overturn previously accepted academic teachings.
Post by Bill
Historian and linguist Carl Hart, editor of WORLD EXPLORER, then obtained a hiker's map of the Grand Canyon from a bookstore in Chicago. Poring over the map, we were amazed to see that much of the area on the north side of the canyon has Egyptian names. The area around Ninety-four Mile Creek and Trinity Creek had areas (rock formations, apparently) with names like Tower of Set, Tower of Ra, Horus Temple, Osiris Temple, and Isis Temple. In the Haunted Canyon area were such names as the Cheops Pyramid, the Buddha Cloister, Buddha Temple, Manu Temple and Shiva Temple. Was there any relationship between these places and the alleged Egyptian discoveries in the Grand Canyon?

We called a state archaeologist at the Grand Canyon, and were told that the early explorers had just liked Egyptian and Hindu names, but that it was true that this area was off limits to hikers or other visitors, "because of dangerous caves."

Indeed, this entire area with the Egyptian and Hindu place names in the Grand Canyon is a forbidden zone - no one is allowed into this large area. We could only conclude that this was the area where the vaults were located. Yet today, this area is curiously off-limits to all hikers and even, in large part, park personnel.

I believe that the discerning reader will see that if only a small part of the "Smithsoniangate" evidence is true, then our most hallowed archaeological institution has been actively involved in suppressing evidence for advanced American cultures, evidence for ancient voyages of various cultures to North America, evidence for anomalistic giants and other oddball artefacts, and evidence that tends to disprove the official dogma that is now the history of North America.

The Smithsonian's Board of Regents still refuses to open its meetings to the news media or the public. If Americans were ever allowed inside the 'nation's attic', as the Smithsonian has been called, what skeletons might they find?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

from the front page of THE PHOENIX GAZETTE of April 5th, 1909 EXPLORATIONS IN GRAND CANYON

Mysteries of Immense Rich Cavern being brought to light

Jordan is enthused
Remarkable finds indicate ancient people migrated from Orient

The latest news of the progress of the explorations of what is now regarded by scientists as not only the oldest archeological discovery in the United States, but one of the most valuable in the world, which was mentioned some time ago in the Gazette, was brought to the city yesterday by G.E. Kinkaid, the explorer who found the great underground citadel of the Grand Canyon during a trip from Green River, Wyoming, down the Colorado, in a wooden boat, to Yuma, several months ago.

According to the story related to the Gazette by Mr. Kinkaid, the archaelogists of the Smithsonian Institute, which is financing the expeditions, have made discoveries which almost conclusively prove that the race which inhabited this mysterious cavern, hewn in solid rock by human hands, was of oriental origin, possibly from Egypt, tracing back to Ramses. If their theories are borne out by the translation of the tablets engraved with heiroglyphics, the mystery of the prehistoric peoples of North America, their ancient arts, who they were and whence they came, will be solved. Egypt and the Nile, and Arizona and the Colorado will be linked by a historical chain running back to ages which staggers the wildest fancy of the fictionist.

A Thorough Examination

Under the direction of Prof. S. A. Jordan, the Smithsonian Institute is now prosecuting the most thorough explorations, which will be continued until the last link in the chain is forged. Nearly a mile underground, about 1480 feet below the surface, the long main passage has been delved into, to find another mammoth chamber from which radiates scores of passageways, like the spokes of a wheel.

Several hundred rooms have been discovered, reached by passageways running from the main passage, one of them having been explored for 854 feet and another 634 feet. The recent finds include articles which have never been known as native to this country, and doubtless they had their origin in the orient. War weapons, copper instruments, sharp-edged and hard as steel, indicate the high state of civilization reached by these strange people. So interested have the scientists become that preparations are being made to equip the camp for extensive studies, and the force will be increased to thirty or forty persons.

Mr. Kinkaid's Report

Mr. Kinkaid was the first white child born in Idaho and has been an explorer and hunter all his life, thirty years having been in the service of the Smithsonian Institute. Even briefly recounted, his history sounds fabulous, almost grotesque.

"First, I would impress that the cavern is nearly inaccessible. The entrance is 1,486 feet down the sheer canyon wall. It is located on government land and no visitor will be allowed there under penalty of trespass. The scientists wish to work unmolested, without fear of archeological discoveries being disturbed by curio or relic hunters. A trip there would be fruitless, and the visitor would be sent on his way. The story of how I found the cavern has been related, but in a paragraph: I was journeying down the Colorado river in a boat, alone, looking for mineral. Some forty-two miles up the river from the El Tovar Crystal canyon, I saw on the east wall, stains in the sedimentary formation about 2,000 feet above the river bed. There was no trail to this point, but I finally reached it with great difficulty.
Above a shelf which hid it from view from the river, was the mouth of the cave. There are steps leading from this entrance some thirty yards to what was, at the time the cavern was inhabited, the level of the river. When I saw the chisel marks on the wall inside the entrance, I became interested, securing my gun and went in. During that trip I went back several hundred feet along the main passage till I came to the crypt in which I discovered the mummies. One of these I stood up and photographed by flashlight. I gathered a number of relics, which I carried down the Colorado to Yuma, from whence I shipped them to Washington with details of the discovery. Following this, the explorations were undertaken.

The Passages

"The main passageway is about 12 feet wide, narrowing to nine feet toward the farther end. About 57 feet from the entrance, the first side-passages branch off to the right and left, along which, on both sides, are a number of rooms about the size of ordinary living rooms of today, though some are 30 by 40 feet square. These are entered by oval-shaped doors and are ventilated by round air spaces through the walls into the passages. The walls are about three feet six inches in thickness.

The passages are chiseled or hewn as straight as could be laid out by an engineer. The ceilings of many of the rooms converge to a center. The side-passages near the entrance run at a sharp angle from the main hall, but toward the rear they gradually reach a right angle in direction.

The Shrine

"Over a hundred feet from the entrance is the cross-hall, several hundred feet long, in which are found the idol, or image, of the people's god, sitting cross-legged, with a lotus flower or lily in each hand. The cast of the face is oriental, and the carving this cavern. The idol almost resembles Buddha, though the scientists are not certain as to what religious worship it represents. Taking into consideration everything found thus far, it is possible that this worship most resembles the ancient people of Tibet.

Surrounding this idol are smaller images, some very beautiful in form; others crooked-necked and distorted shapes, symbolical, probably, of good and evil. There are two large cactus with protruding arms, one on each side of the dais on which the god squats. All this is carved out of hard rock resembling marble. In the opposite corner of this cross-hall were found tools of all descriptions, made of copper. These people undoubtedly knew the lost art of hardening this metal, which has been sought by chemicals for centureis without result. On a bench running around the workroom was some charcoal and other material probably used in the process. There is also slag and stuff similar to matte, showing that these ancients smelted ores, but so far no trace of where or how this was done has been discovered, nor the origin of the ore.

"Among the other finds are vases or urns and cups of copper and gold, made very artistic in design. The pottery work includes enameled ware and glazed vessels. Another passageway leads to granaries such as are found in the oriental temples. They contain seeds of varous kinds. One very large storehouse has not yet been entered, as it is twelve feet high and can be reached only from above. Two copper hooks extend on the edge, which indicates that some sort of ladder was attached. These granaries are rounded, as the materials of which they are constructed, I think, is a ver hard cement. A gray metal is also found in this cavern, which puzzles the scientists, for its identity has not been established. It resembles platinum. Strewn promiscuously over the floor everywhere are what people call "cats eyse', a yellow stone of no great value. Each one is engraved with the head of the Malay type.

The Hieroglyphics

"On all the urns, or walls over doorways , and tablets of stone which were found by the image are the mysterious hieroglyphics, the key to which the Smithsonian Institute hopes yet to discover. The engraving on the tables probably has something to do with the religion of the people. Similar hieroglyphics have been found in southern Arizona. Among the pictorial writings, only two animals are found. One is of prehistoric type.

The Crypt

"The tomb or crypt in which the mummies were found is one of the largest of the chambers, the walls slanting back at an angle of about 35 degrees. On these are tiers of mummies, each one occupying a separate hewn shelf. At the head of each is a small bench, on which is found copper cups and pieces of broken swords. Some of the mummies are covered with clay, and all are wrapped in a bark fabric.

The urns or cups on the lower tiers are crude, while as the higher shelves are reached, the urns are finer in design, showing a later stage of civilization. It is worthy of note that all the mummies examined so far have proved to be male, no children or females being buried here. This leads to the belief that this exterior section was the warriors' barracks.

"Among the discoveries no bones of animals have been found, no skins, no clothing, no bedding. Many of the rooms are bare but for water vessels. One room, about 40 by 700 feet, was probably the main dining hall, for cooking utensils are found here. What these people lived on is a problem, though it is presumed that they came south in the winter and farmed in the valleys, going back north in the summer.

Upwards of 50,000 people could have lived in the caverns comfortably. One theory is that the present Indian tribes found in Arizona are descendants of the serfs or slaves of the people which inhabited the cave. Undoubtedly a good many thousands of years before the Christian era, a people lived here which reached a high stage of civilization. The chronology of human history is full of gaps. Professor Jordan is much enthused over the discoveries and believes that the find will prove of incalculable value in archeological work.

"One thing I have not spoken of, may be of interest. There is one chamber of the passageway to which is not ventilated, and when we approached it a deadly, snaky smell struck us. Our light would not penetrate the gloom, and until stronger ones are available we will not know what the chamber contains. Some say snakes, but other boo-hoo this idea and think it may contain a deadly gas or chemicals used by the ancients. No sounds are heard, but it smells snaky just the same. The whole underground installation gives one of shaky nerves the creeps. The gloom is like a weight on one's shoulders, and our flashlights and candles only make the darkness blacker. Imagination can revel in conjectures and ungodly daydreams back through the ages that have elapsed till the mind reels dizzily in space."

An Indian Legend

In connection with this story, it is notable that among the Hopi Indians the tradition is told that their ancestors once lived in an underworld in the Grand Canyon till dissension arose between the good and the bad, the people of one heart and the people of two hearts. Machetto, who was their chief, counseled them to leave the underworld, but there was no way out. The chief then caused a tree to grow up and pierce the roof of the underworld, and then the people of one heart climbed out. They tarried by Paisisvai (Red River), which is the Colorado, and grew grain and corn.

They sent out a message to the Temple of the Sun, asking the blessing of peace, good will and rain for people of one heart. That messenger never returned, but today at the Hopi villages at sundown can be seen the old men of the tribe out on the housetops gazing toward the sun, looking for the messenger. When he returns, their lands and ancient dwelling place will be restored to them. That is the tradition.

Among the engravings of animals in the cave is seen the image of a heart over the spot where it is located. The legend was learned by W.E. Rollins, the artist, during a year spent with the Hopi Indians.

There are two theories of the origin of the Egyptians. One is that they came from Asia; another that the racial cradle was in the upper Nile region. Heeren, an Egyptologist, believed in the Indian origin of the Egyptians. The discoveries in the Grand Canyon may throw further light on human evolution and prehistoric ages.



Post by Capt Bill
Well Guys!
It is now, and was found out, a few years back,
A FACT!
NOW! A PROVEN FACT!

That the Celts, Phoenicians, Israel & Iberians, were all here, in the West, about 2500 yrs ago!
That's 2000 yrs, before Columbus !
Also, Were, The Vikings !
They, Were mostly limited to the Eastern U.S.
Although, there is a Viking Site in Oklahoma...


END OF OTHER POSTS

THAT IS ALOT OF INFORMATION, but I think the idea that there was communication may be a bit easier to see from reading this.

JC

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote:

The Eygptians did not row across the Atlantic in order to teach the Incas how to construct a pyramid, nor did the Incas row to Egypt, nor did aliens come from another system and give the Incas the knowledge, nor did the Incas use any form of telepathy. Something locked away in the DNA code of the Incas COMPELLED them to start constructing monuments at a certain stage in their development as a society and something inside of the DNA code COMPELLED them to construct a monument in the shape of a pyramid.

Who proposed that Egyptians or Incas crossed the ocean to teach pyramid construction? Perhaps you have missed the point, no one has proposed Egyptians nor Incas as the agents of the IDEA being transmitted, in fact I would point to Phoenicians/Canaanites and similar cultures as the agents of transmitting such an idea. Do you deny that Phoenicians were the merchants selling spices throughout the "known" world in ancient times? Are you aware that Phoenician inscriptions have turned up not only in America but also in SE Asia? This is far diffferent from having a fleet of Egyptians sailing across the ocean to teach the Mayans. There are also problems with your timeline - for the time periods when pyramids were being constructed is not a case of one culture built them for a while then stopped, and centuries later another culture started. For example, in Egypt the construction of pyramids began with Djoser, around 2630 BC and some 120 were built over a span of 3000 years. In Nubia to the south, pyramid construction began about the 4th century BC and continued until the last was built around 400 AD. So there is likely some "overlap" of non-Royal Egyptian pyramids being constructed very close to the time when the first Nubian pyramids were built.

(Nubian pyramids)
Now we look at other pyramids and see that the pyramids of other cultures were built at times that also overlap the pyramid-building going on elsewhere.
<Pyramid of the Sun in Mexico>

For instance, the Pyramid of the Sun in Mexico was begun about 100 AD, while pyramids were also being constructed in Nubia; likewise the pyramids in China (specifically those attributed to the Han dynasty) were built during the same time period. Some pyramids were being built in what is today the United States during the very same time period, here is one example

which is the Miamisburg Mound in Ohio, built between 800 BC and 100 AD by the Adena culture. So there is considerable time "overlap" in which pyramid construction was going on in several places.

I would reiterate that I am not saying that Egyptians came to Mexico to teach them how to build pyramids, but that the IDEA of building pyramids got transmitted, and the agents of transmission were almost certainly the greatest seafarers of the ancient world the Phoenicians/Canaanites etc. I would propose that any Egyptians, Celts, etc that may have actually visited the Americas did so as passengers aboard Phoenician ships.

As for contact in the other direction, I would suggest that you read Plutarch's Moralia XII, specifically the essay "On The Face Of The Moon" which includes a full description of the northern route across the Atlantic, the fact that this information came from Carthage (a Phoenician colony) and that Americans paid a visit to the ruins of Carthage, their former trading partner and friend. (Quote)

XXVI. Almost whilst I was still speaking, Sylla took up the discourse with “Stop, Lamprias, and shut to the wicket of your speech lest you unwittingly run the fable aground, and throw this play of mine into confusion, for it has a different scene and plot. Now, I am the player, but first I will tell you the author of the piece, if there is no objection, who begins after Homer’s fashion with,

“‘An isle Ogygian lies far out at sea,’
distant five days’ sail from Britain, going westwards, and three others equally distant from it, and from each other, are more opposite to the summer visits of the sun ; in one of which the barbarians fable that Saturn is imprisoned by Jupiter, whilst his son lies by his side, as though keeping guard over those islands and the sea, which they call ‘the Sea of Saturn.’ The great continent by which the great sea is surrounded on all sides, they say, lies less distant from the others, but about five thousand stadia from Ogygia, for one sailing in a rowing-galley; for the sea is difficult of passage and muddy through the great number of currents, and these currents issue out of the great land, and shoals are formed by them, and the sea becomes clogged and full of earth, by which it has the appearance of being solid. That sea-coast of the mainland Greeks are settled on, around a bay not smaller than the Maeotis, the entrance of which lies almost in a straight line opposite the entrance to the Caspian Sea.’ Those Greeks call and consider themselves continental people, but islanders all such as inhabit this land of ours, inasmuch as it is surrounded on all sides by the sea; and they believe that with the peoples of Saturn were united, later, those who wandered about with Hercules, and being left behind there, they rekindled into strength and numbers the Greek element, then on the point of extinction, and sinking into the barbarian language, manners, and laws; whence Hercules has the first honors there, and Saturn the second. But when the star of Saturn, which we call the ‘Informer,’ but they ‘Nocturnal,’ comes into the sign of the Bull every thirty years, they having got ready a long while beforehand all things required for the sacrifice and the games . . . . they send out people appointed by lot in the same number of ships, furnished with provisions and stores necessary for persons intending to cross so vast a sea by dint of rowing, as well as to live a long time in a foreign land. When they have put to sea, they meet, naturally, with different fates, but those who escape from the sea, first of all, touch at the foremost isles, which are inhabited by Greeks also, and see the sun setting for less than one hour for thirty days in succession; and this interval is night, attended with slight darkness, and a twilight glimmering out of the west. Having spent ninety days there, treated with honor and hospitality, being both considered and entitled ‘holy,’ thenceforward they voyage with the help of the winds. No other people inhabit the islands save themselves and those that had been sent out before; it is, indeed, allowed to such as have served thirteen years in waiting upon the god, to return home, but the greatest part prefer to remain there, partly out of habit, partly because they have all things in abundance without toil and trouble, as they pass their time in sacrifices and hymn singing, or in studying legends and philosophy of some sort. For wonderful are both the island and the mildness of the climate; whilst the deity himself has been an obstacle to some when contemplating departure, by manifesting himself to them as to familiars and friends, not by way of dreams or by tokens, but conversing with them in a visible form with many apparitions and speeches of genii. For Saturn himself is imprisoned in a vast cavern, sleeping upon a rock overlaid with gold; for his sleep has been contrived by Jupiter for his chaining—whilst birds fly down from the rock, which are ordained to carry ambrosia to him, whilst the island is over­spread with fragrance, diffused from the rock as from a fountain. Those genii wait upon and nurse Saturn, who had been his companions at the time when truly he used to reign over both gods and men; and they, being endowed with prophecy, foretell, on their own account, many things, but important matters, and such as concern the highest things, they go down into the cavern and report as the dreams of Saturn; for whatsoever things Jupiter is devising for the future, Saturn dreams what they are about, and that which is kingly and divine. The stranger having been carried there, as he told us, and waiting upon the god at his leisure, he gained acquaintance with astrology and geometry as far as it is possible to advance, whilst he took up ‘natural science’ for his department of philosophy. But, seized at last with a desire and longing to become acquainted with the ‘great island,’ for so, as was natural, they denominate the territories inhabited by ourselves; when the thirty years had expired, and the successors were come from home, he took leave of his friends and sailed away, having provided himself carefully with all other stores, and carrying his travelling expenses in [the shape of] cups of gold. All that he endured, and how many nations he passed through, consulting their sacred books, and receiving initiation into all their mysteries, would take a whole day to enumerate in the way that he related it to us, describing the circumstances very well and particularly; but as much of them as is connected with the present inquiry you must now hear, for he spent a very long time at Carthage, inasmuch as he received great honors amongst us for having discovered, deposited in the earth, some sacred parchments, which had been secretly carried off at the time when the former city was destroyed, and which had been concealed a very long time. Of the visible powers, he said we ought (and exhorted me also) especially to worship the moon, as being in reality, and also reputed, the sovereign of life.”

There are several other ancient records which prove not only that people were aware that the Americas existed but that ships did sail there and return, I have posted much on this subject already so will not bore you with still more. However I will sum up the evidence of small scale and intermittent contact in ancient times:

Ancient records of cross Atlantic and even an attempt to circumnavigate found among the works of Aristotle, Diodorus Siculus, Aelian, Theopompous and others;

Finding of American products in Old World sites including nicotine and cocaine in Egyptian mummies, (including an American tobacco leaf found within the wrappings of an Egyptian mummy) American peanuts in an ancient Chinese tomb, American Corn and American rubies in ancient India, American wood in a Phoenician tomb, etc

Finding of Old World products in the Americas, including chickens, hemp, cotton etc

Ancient artifacts originating in the Old World found in the Americas such as amphoras, lamps, swords, bronze tools, The Calixtlahuaca Head found in Mexico etc
<The Calixtlahuaca Head viewed from front>

Ancient coins found in eleven US states, along with Old World inscriptions found in numerous sites in the Americas

Linguistic evidence of ancient contact between Semitic peoples and Amerindian cultures, several studies done on this show more than an accidental contact

A "map on a coin" discovered by professor Mark McMenamin, a coin struck in ancient Carthage shows both the Old World and America

This is not an all-inclusive list and the post is already very long but I think you see where I am going with this - that the ancient cultures were NOT in complete isolation as is taught in our schools, rather there was some level of contact taking place in ancient times. This contact was broken several times. The evidence does not point to massive contact on a scale similar to the age of colonization/exploration, nor does it support the contention of utter isolation. Remember this one point amigo - for the Isolation Theory to hold true, there must be NO evidence of ANY contact between the Old World and the New, from the end of the Ice Age until at least 1000 AD (Norse explorers). None, zilch, zero absolutely nothing. Unfortunately for that theory, there is quite a bit of evidence that contact was taking place.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear thrillofthehunt;
You asked:

Example: When my wife sees a cochroach she screams, jumps up on a chair and yells for me to come and kill it. Why? She out ways it by 1000 times, she is also faster and stronger than this creature. It can’t bite her or really harm her in any way, so why does she have this reaction? Is it in her DNA? If so, why is not in mine? I just step on the bug. I believe this debunks your idea of humans react the same way. Humans are problem solvers using their experience and their surroundings to solve problems.

The simple is answer is that your wife suffers from a condition known as "Entomophobia", that is, a fear of insects, in your wifes' particular case, cockroaches. And, just as an FYI, you actually did NOT debunk my statement that humans react in PREDICTABLE ways, my friend. If you meant to debunk my theory, then you've managed to pick the WORST example possible, my friend.

Phobias are the common mental disorders found in humans, and by classification, a human who does not fear something is a very rare specimen. Because your wife is afraid of cockroaches and you aren't proves only that you harbor different fears than she does, yet the engine of fear is STILL there. She is afraid of roaches, while you may be afraid of flying. This is the indivualities coming forth, yet the same fear exists in both, and this is the pre-determining factor.

Most people share very common phobias, such as fearing of flying, of bugs and insects, spider, snakes, the IRS, etc. Others among us have less known fears, however the fear behind the phobia is always very real and very presnt. The mechanism which triggers the fear in each of us is placed there by our individual DNA strands, my friend. It's an existing trait that we still maintain in our DNA strands back from when humans relied very heavily on instinctive nature.

As humans progress forward through the generations, these early instincts seem to be diluted very slightly to such a point that one day, in the distant future, they may not exist at all as one of humans' predominate traits. For example, the little toes on our feet have been shrinking minutely throughout the generations. This is evidenced by measuring the toes of our earliest ancestors and sampling the theory by measuring the toes of preceeding generations.

The evidence seems to conclude that as we progress, our toes are in fact getting almost microscopically smaller with each generation. The reason for this is because mankind no longer has nearly as great of a need for the little toe as we did when we first developed as a species. Man went from a tree climbing species to ground based nomadic one and once mankind left the trees, the little toe fell into disuse as an instrument to aid in climbing and clinging to limbs and branches.

Therefore, since our little toe no longer serves a prime purpose, it is slowly being phased out of the human body through natural genetic mutation. The explanation for this phenomenom of our very slowly vanishing little toe is much more difficult to grasp than the actual act of it being mutated out of existence. The human DNA strand of the peoples of Europe did not tell the DNA strands of the peoples of the Americas to shrink, instead DNA just did what it does best of all, that is, it adapts to the ever-changing world in which we reside.

Everyone seems to missed the point of my theory. Our individual DNA strands do NOT allow us to pre-determine actual events, instead it sets a series of pre-determined responses in front of us. Once a certain amount of our worlds' population responds in a similiar manner to any series of pre-determined responses, then we have trait similiarity.

If we had pyramids in Egypt and pyramids in Peru, then one could ponder the plausibility that perhaps there may have been possible interaction between the two groups, however pyramids exist virtually EVERYWHERE, therefore we can positively conclude that humans could not have travelled the width and breadth of the entire planet, And that they could do this without leaving behind the tiniest morsel of evidence is simply absurd.

We also know that dragons did not exist, at least for the last 20 million years, because there simply exists no evidence linking the myth to the species, yet we know that the myths are in place because of the documented proof that early man has left behind. We also know the bow exists because we find hundreds of thousands of references to it thoughout the ancient world, yet to assume that a person, or a group of persons, travelled the world and showed virtually every tribe of humans in the ancient world the bow and arrow would simply be preposterious.

In short, do NOT base a theory on assumptions, instead rely on historical facts and you will end up with a theory which stands the test of time and logic.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear thrillofthehunt;

You pasted this:
Perhaps the most amazing suppression of all is the excavation of an Egyptian tomb by the Smithsonian itself in Arizona. A lengthy front page story of the PHOENIX GAZETTE on 5 April 1909 (follows this article), gave a highly detailed report of the discovery and excavation of a rock-cut vault by an expedition led by a Professor S.A. Jordan of the Smithsonian. The Smithsonian, however, claims to have absolutely no knowledge of the discovery or its discoverers.


And my response it this:
A newspaper article?!?!?! Now, there is a virtual fount of fact and truth my friend! My lord, until the advent of the Internet, newspapers were traditionally the worst possible source of misinformation known to mankind! Media reporters are supposedly driven by the desire to post actual facts, yet in truth, they are driven to sell their services to the public at large. Historically, they manage to do this through the use of sensationalism, because the more bizarre a story seems to be, the more people that purchase newspapers and the bigger the circulation of that newspaper becomes.

The fault of this may be found in the reporters' own slovenly research of the sources in question, my friend. How did the reporter KNOW for a FACT that this *Professor S.A. Jordan* had the financial and scientific backing of the Smithsonian? Did S.A. Jordan or G.E. Kincaid have ANY credentials in place to prove that they were in fact associated with the Smithsonian Institute, even a letter signed by one of the curators of the museum?

A clue that the entire article was a hoax lies in the names of the two supposed *discoverers*. Because the first and middle names were initialized, trying to track down and prove the validity of these two would have been next to impossible in the days before computer connectivity, my friend. It was a very common way of maintaining anonomy when a story could not be proved conclusively.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear Oroblanco;
The world map which was supposedly discovered on the face of the Punic coins stamped from 350 to 320 BC is a very shaky limb to stand upon, my friend. The supposed world map does not look anything like a map of the world, not even the parts of the world which WERE known at the time. Even Prof. McMenamin states that it's only a theory and provides no difinitive proof.

Also, coca thrives and flourishes VERY well below 6000 feet ASL, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

All,

This drawing was found without a copywrite attached:

This site gives a little more information:

http://phoenicia.org/america.html

My question would be.......Why would they place the unreadable map on a coin? How do we know this is not a depiction of the digestive tract of an emperor? Is this map found somewhere else.......artifact, other than a coin?

Just curious,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[lamar]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear cactusjumper;
The alledged map of the world really does not look like very much at all. Gaul LOOKS like Gaul is more or supposed to look, but the rest of Europe is a mess as is the North Africa rim. Italy is not depicted at all and Italy is a VERY prominent part of lower Europe, my friend. The depiction of the Americas look completely outlandish, however, if we were to consider that the Phoencians were only accurate with the parts they visited, then the depiction of the Americas would STILL be completely outlandish, my friend.

Granted, I am NOT stating that the depiction of the coins is NOT a map of the world, only that I feel more evidence of a solid nature would be necessary before drawing any firm conclusions.
Your friend;
LAMAR