Guest poster.

[Tom_in_CA]

Ok Ivan, I'll bite. You're saying it's a natural keen sense, in a very small percentage of the population, to know how to make a copper rod swing and point you to valuables. Like a heightened sense of smell, hearing, awareness, etc...

Now, what would you say if I told you that I have the ability to see into the future with a crystal ball? Or that I could levitate? Or that I practice remote viewing? or that I speak to the dead? If you told me any of those were of an occult nature, I would merely tell you "No, no, no! These things and my crystal ball are NOT occultic. They are merely natural human abilities, that some rare people are able to do". Yet we both recognize those things as dabbling in the occult, don't we? Yet they could use your same of reasoning to distance themselves from the stigma.

I mean, take your reasoning, straight from your last few posts, and apply it to the most obvious occult forms - things that even you would have to say are occult (seances? tarrot cards? you name it) and the persons in those practices could use your same line of reasoning, to also distance themselves from this label, no matter how much a reasonable person would see it as superstition, spirtualism, etc...

Would you allow them to use your reasoning? Or do you think some things truly do cross the line into occult? If so, why can't they continue to use your reasoning to shelter themselves too?

 

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[ivan salis]

oh they know if their dabbing with the occult and hopefully they know better that to do that -- the price is only your soul after all --- that said the bible itself states that "gifts" are give by the lord -- like the "gift" to interpet dreams for exsample was --- so "magic" per say is not all bad --because there is "holy" magic used for healing and such -- moses staff turning into a snake before pharoh via the gift that god granted him and then eating the pharoh's mages snakes --- magic is therefore not "evil" by it very nature --- but rather the purpose its put to makes it good or bad --- like a gun -- in itself not good or bad ---used to protect a home from a robber --its a "good" gun --- now place it in the crooks hands ---now its a "bad" gun --- the gun itself didn't change at all --- merely the user and it intented use --- Ivan

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Good answer. We're on the same page there. I am only referring to the, shall we say, dark side, not Jesus' miracles, etc... things we would attribute to God, right, good, proper, etc....

I grew up in what was nearly a hippy commune, surrounded by new-agey types, so I can speak from experience here. I wouldn't be surprised if someone, or something, that both you and I agree gets the "occult" label, might, in fact, have some practictioners avoid the label. For example, on a less severe level: don't some try to explain horoscopes by saying it's perfectly scientific? (like gravitational pulls on you, as you were coming out of the womb, etc...?). Likewise, some may say that some forms of occult (things that even you would call occult) have either a 1) scientific explanation, or 2) are a natural human ability that only a few are keen enough on, like a sense of smell, etc...

Well in any case, whether or not an occultists has ever made this stretch of logic, my only point is, that THEY COULD. And then you'd be hard-pressed to tell why they couldn't apply it to themselves. If you tried to tell them that it's scientifically impossible for someone else's dead voice to be coming through their mouth, they could say "it's un-discovered science".

 

[ivan salis]

I understand your point -- but folks two hundred years ago would have been burnt at the stake for doing things we today now clearly know are not "witchcraft" but rather science experiments --- in the past experiments into unknown scientific areas were often called witchcraft or heresy and were punishible by death --- often by being burnt alive -- scientific discovery's are often made by folks taking known facts ansd factors and "applying" them to "unknown" problems seeking a answer --- often great men of science being "outside of the box" thinkers by their nature are labeled odd or even crazy at times by their fellow human beings and thus are highly misunderstood by most other human beings --

a prime exsample a TV set -- if you would have show up with a working tv set in 1800 america and told folks that it was a image of a person hundreds of miles away speaking to them -- it would have been "git a rope" time ---hang this devil man!! --- now of course today the TV is a common everyday item in about every home in america

 

[aarthrj3811]

Hey Tom....I enjoy reading you post. You explain your opinion and don't call those that don't agree with you names. I experimented with a silver dollar this morning. The experiment was not as good as I would like it to be but we have snow on the ground today. I used my odometer from my Pickup to check the distance that I could locate a silver dollar. The distance was 2/10 of a mile. I also used my nulling device and found that it had a very weak signal. The micro silver deposits in this area were much stronger.
I have found that the distances that I can dectect objects has a lot to do with the size of the object and what the material of the rods I am using are made of. I hope you learn that most aspects of Dowsing comes down to "what works for you". My methods have been developed over the years to suit my bodies energy. When I read how others dowse I check their methods and give them a try. If they work for me I then decide if they are better for me before I chance any part of my methods. I hope this is helpful ...Art

 

[ClonedSIM]

Hey Tom....I enjoy reading you post. You explain your opinion and don't call those that don't agree with you names. ...Art

That's funny, Art. When I explain my opinion, you take my words out of context and try to make them out to be something other than I intended. Why is that, do you think?

 

[ivan salis]

the TV point is to show the fact that --200 hundred years ago -- if you tried to explain how a tv works to the normal people of the day --they would have thought you "mad" --- and if you showed up with a working set -- than they would have said you were in league with the devil to be able to do such "witchcraft" and burnt you at the stake --- people tend to fear what they do not understand ---and hate those who "know" more than they do on a subject -- this has been true thru the ages and as such is nothing new. Ivan

 

[aarthrj3811]

the TV point is to show the fact that --200 hundred years ago -- if you tried to explain how a tv works to the normal people of the day --they would have thought you "mad" --- and if you showed up with a working set -- than they would have said you were in league with the devil to be able to do such "witchcraft" and burnt you at the stake --- people tend to fear what they do not understand ---and hate those who "know" more than they do on a subject -- this has been true thru the ages and as such is nothing new. Ivan

Hey Ivan....Heck..I still don't understand every thing about many things we use in our lives. I use them because they work...Art

 

[ClonedSIM]

the TV point is to show the fact that --200 hundred years ago -- if you tried to explain how a tv works to the normal people of the day --they would have thought you "mad" --- and if you showed up with a working set -- than they would have said you were in league with the devil to be able to do such "witchcraft" and burnt you at the stake --- people tend to fear what they do not understand ---and hate those who "know" more than they do on a subject -- this has been true thru the ages and as such is nothing new. Ivan

The problem with your analogy is this:
The television was the result of several inventions and discoveries without which the tv wouldn't have been possible.

What do you need to have a functioning tv set? Electricity, for one. A station broadcasting a signal. A way of receiving that signal. A program that is produced by this signal. The progress made by the radio age would be helpful, too. If you did take a tv set back to 1800, all you would have is a pretty nonfunctional box.

What I'm trying to say is that there is no way a group of people could be surprised by a tv set because there are always precedents leading up to it. If you actually could take a functioning TV set back to 1800, people might be surprised, but they certainly wouldn't burn you at the stake, because they would already be familiar with electricity, radio, etc.

This translates to dowsing in this way. Very few things surprise people anymore because most everyone touts thinking outside the box.

 

[Urban Prospector]

Been reading with interest the two sides being exprested here. As to the TV analogy "There is just one glaring problem with this particular analogy. That is, the TV set, when properly connected to a power source and an antenna or signal input system --actually works as it was designed to work, and can be operated by any one smart enough to turn it on. That is, it produces a picture and sound." The glaring problem is the signal to the antenna is missing and that is it seems also the crux of this debate.The Dowser is the receiver or TV as well as the power supply or battery, the rods are the antenna.Now is there a signal to detect that can be read or interpreted to lead to an item of interest.I say yes.Two standing next to each other one with a good sense of smell one with bad each receive the same amount of molecules of the item to smell yet one senses or internally interprets the items presence the other can't.Is that occult or supernatural? Of course not.Try explaining the act of walking upright on two feet, many do it yet it cannot be replicated scientifically without the robot remaining stoopedand bent kneed. Proof is walking is impossible.How about Love is that scientifically explainable.how about Lust or even chemistry between two strangers across the room from one another, can't explain it so it doesn't exist, please tell me it ain't so.The comparison was made between dowsing and mding. Take the batteries out of the MD and it won't work, right. Why? Because there is no flow of positive and negative electrons thru the circuitry that uses them to cause a proven reaction. Well every thing is conductive of the flow of electrons, some good conductors like gold, some bad like rubber. Air is a bad conducter yet the most vicious electricity known to man flows easily through it in the form of lightning.I don't claim to have answers or "know" dowsing works.But the scientific basis for it working is in place. Even if it involves premonition some are better, more accurate at a higher percentage, at making a wild a$$ guess. If that's all it amounts to the so be it and more power to you. It's not my place to be jealous of your ability. Finally on the religious note what after all was it that lead Moses to the tablets inscribed with the 10 Commandments and was that not at the time supernatural and bordering on occult. Guess the answer depends on your point of view and personal convictions,not scientific hypotheses and blind control study testing. Some things in life can't be explained and are better because of it.

 

[ClonedSIM]

Been reading with interest the two sides being exprested here. As to the TV analogy "There is just one glaring problem with this particular analogy. That is, the TV set, when properly connected to a power source and an antenna or signal input system --actually works as it was designed to work, and can be operated by any one smart enough to turn it on. That is, it produces a picture and sound." The glaring problem is the signal to the antenna is missing and that is it seems also the crux of this debate.The Dowser is the receiver or TV as well as the power supply or battery, the rods are the antenna.Now is there a signal to detect that can be read or interpreted to lead to an item of interest.I say yes.Two standing next to each other one with a good sense of smell one with bad each receive the same amount of molecules of the item to smell yet one senses or internally interprets the items presence the other can't.Is that occult or supernatural? Of course not.Try explaining the act of walking upright on two feet, many do it yet it cannot be replicated scientifically without the robot remaining stoopedand bent kneed. Proof is walking is impossible.How about Love is that scientifically explainable.how about Lust or even chemistry between two strangers across the room from one another, can't explain it so it doesn't exist, please tell me it ain't so.The comparison was made between dowsing and mding. Take the batteries out of the MD and it won't work, right. Why? Because there is no flow of positive and negative electrons thru the circuitry that uses them to cause a proven reaction. Well every thing is conductive of the flow of electrons, some good conductors like gold, some bad like rubber. Air is a bad conducter yet the most vicious electricity known to man flows easily through it in the form of lightning.I don't claim to have answers or "know" dowsing works.But the scientific basis for it working is in place. Even if it involves premonition some are better, more accurate at a higher percentage, at making a wild a$$ guess. If that's all it amounts to the so be it and more power to you. It's not my place to be jealous of your ability. Finally on the religious note what after all was it that lead Moses to the tablets inscribed with the 10 Commandments and was that not at the time supernatural and bordering on occult. Guess the answer depends on your point of view and personal convictions,not scientific hypotheses and blind control study testing. Some things in life can't be explained and are better because of it.

I think you should re-read the previous posts. No one is comparing a dowser to a television.

 

[Urban Prospector]

Jerry and others....It seems that your position that dowsing can't be real bcus science can't prove it so it must be occult is a bit unthought through. When did science prove the occult to be real? Am I missing something here.

 

[Urban Prospector]

af....as you should read or reread my post ,I just did in the post you are critiquing. I go by Urb not no one.

 

[ClonedSIM]

As to the TV analogy "There is just one glaring problem with this particular analogy. That is, the TV set, when properly connected to a power source and an antenna or signal input system --actually works as it was designed to work, and can be operated by any one smart enough to turn it on. That is, it produces a picture and sound." The glaring problem is the signal to the antenna is missing and that is it seems also the crux of this debate.The Dowser is the receiver or TV as well as the power supply or battery, the rods are the antenna.Now is there a signal to detect that can be read or interpreted to lead to an item of interest.I say yes.

This was the part of your response I was commenting on. It seems you are pointing out the errors in the way someone has compared a dowser to a television set, but no one on this board has compared a dowser to a television. There have been comparison dowsing to television, but only to show how both may/may not be associated with the occult and supernatural things.

 

[ClonedSIM]

af....as you should read or reread my post ,I just did in the post you are critiquing. I go by Urb not no one.

Urb? Bless you!

 

[ClonedSIM]

Jerry and others....It seems that your position that dowsing can't be real bcus science can't prove it so it must be occult is a bit unthought through. When did science prove the occult to be real? Am I missing something here.

Jerry is correct on this one. Dowsing is real, because people perform it. You can look at a man walking around with coathangers and say "He is dowsing." The questions arise when dowsers say that they can use their rods to pinpoint the locations of treasures; lost, buried and natural. There is no scientific proof that dowsing works any better than guessing, and dowsers are afraid to undergo the tests that would provide proof.

If dowsing does indeed pin-point the exact location of treasure, and there is no scientific explanation for this, then dowsing is bordering on occult status, meaning that science cannot explain it, but if indeed there is an mysterious power guiding these rods, it is unknowable and cannot be explained by even dowsers.

I don't believe it was ever stated that science has proven the existance of the occult. Where did you read this?

 

[Urban Prospector]

Guess my draw back is that I don't believe in the Occult or supernatural occurrence. If it happens and it's real it can be explained by science. Maybe not proven at this point in time but explained. What I see as weird is the mixing of some one defending scientific inaccuracy with witchcraft. It just doesn't work for me, but I do see the point now.

"Dowsing can't be explained scientifically so it's witchcraft"

Sorry guys but that's not a position I would care to defend or admit to having.

 

[ClonedSIM]

Guess my draw back is that I don't believe in the Occult or supernatural occurrence. If it happens and it's real it can be explained by science. Maybe not proven at this point in time but explained. What I see as weird is the mixing of some one defending scientific inaccuracy with witchcraft. It just doesn't work for me, but I do see the point now.

"Dowsing can't be explained scientifically so it's witchcraft"

Sorry guys but that's not a position I would care to defend or admit to having.

Well, you're really kind of jumping to conclusions on that one. No one here, especially the dowsers, want to see dowsing associated with the supernatural. Dowsing is falling into three different states at the moment, depending on who you believe.

1. Dowsers believe that dowsing works, and this can be scientifically explained, but it hasn't been explained yet.

2. Skeptics believe that dowsing is nothing more than using visual clues and common sense to point out the areas where treasure would most likely be.

3. Since various scientifically-conducted experiments have shown that dowsing works no better or worse than guessing, but dowsers still insist that it works perfectly for them, skeptics wonder if there might not be some connection between dowsing and the paranormal, which dowsers strongly disagree with.

 

[savant365]

First let me say that I have really enjoyed this post. I am not sure if I believe in dowsing or not as I have never experienced it personally. Now I don't have an expensive education or an alphabet behind my name but I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, but I do have a question though, mainly for the side that doesn't believe in dowsing because it can't be (or hasn't yet) been scientificly proven. Is there any reason to believe that it is not possible solely on the basis that it has not been proven scientificly yet? Haven't there been several things that were considered magic or sorcery in the past that we now know are not? Don't you even believe that it is possible?

Charlie

 

[ClonedSIM]

First let me say that I have really enjoyed this post. I am not sure if I believe in dowsing or not as I have never experienced it personally. Now I don't have an expensive education or an alphabet behind my name but I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, but I do have a question though, mainly for the side that doesn't believe in dowsing because it can't be (or hasn't yet) been scientificly proven. Is there any reason to believe that it is not possible solely on the basis that it has not been proven scientificly yet? Haven't there been several things that were considered magic or sorcery in the past that we now know are not? Don't you even believe that it is possible?

Charlie

Using what people thought were "magic or sorcery" as a point of comparison isn't a good analogy. There were times when people were very suspicious about a lot of aspects of life, going as far as to put people to death because of a perceived belief. No one is trying to put anyone to death here.

Skeptics believe that dowsing does not work as dowsers say it does for a number of reasons. Because it hasn't been and can't be proven scientifically is one of them. Another is the "treasures" dowsers say they find can just as easily be found using common sense and visual clues along with the metal detectors most dowsers seem to carry. Also, the "scientific" explanations some dowsers try to give are either based in junk-science or based on completely nothing at all. One more, my personal favorite, is that every dowser has their own reasoning behind what makes dowsing "work." All of these explanations are different and many of them even contradict each other to the point of being laughable.