Guest poster.

ah as far as marshmellows go = to the best of my knowledge they are not conductive to electrical energy whereas rods made of copper most definely are -- if you don't think so get a " bare spot" on a "live" copper 440 Volt power line and grab hold of it -- that will convince you of the fact -- but then you would not be around to say gee I guess copper wires can carry electrical energy. so its a "fact" that copper rods can carry electrical impluses (energy) agreed? so fact # 1 copper rods CAN carry electrical impluses

do you doubt that the human body runs off of electrical impluses via the nervious system and that the human body makes an electrical feild often refered to as a "aura"? if so as a doctor and he will tell you that both of these statements are " well known scientific facts"
so fact #2 -- the human body DOES make electrical energy and it runs off Electric Impluses Via the nervious system and thus has an "electrical aura" as all things electrical do

HIGH EMF (electric magnetic feilds) often caused by electic motors on "unsheild" machinery often messes with a persons "normal electrical feild or aura" thus making people feel ill or sick ----so peoples personal electrical feilds or auras are effected by things in the area around them. fact #3 that people are "effected by" or can "feel" disturbances in their "normal aura" this is a "known medical fact" ask a doctor.

metals like iron ,aluminum ,copper , gold and silver are all highly conductive to electicity. (given known scientific fact) #4

ok using the known "facts" the human using the electrical energy (aura) #1 focused via the conductive copper rods #2 walks about until getting close to the metals #3 which reacts with his aura via the copper rods#2 conducting energy to them #$ ---the human the feels the disturbance in his personal electrical feild or aura #3 --- sharks can smell a drop of blood miles away --- are we not also able to feel things via our own nervious systems -- things long dormint in most of us?
 

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Hi Ivan, thanx for the feedback. I do appreciate your input, as it appears you're thinking it out in depth.

Ok, nix the marshmellow, if that's the achilles heel. Substitute it with any conductive object of your choice, no matter how absurd, the point still remains. Have you read my post "how do you discount the testimonials?" on the "why I don't believe forum"? I challenge you to.

So you're of the camp who says it's not mental or metaphysical, but rather, totally scientifically explainable, eh? The trouble is, all the things you've said fail to produce their desired result. They are a lot of true statements, but do not end in the end-result claimed. Like: "Clocks tell time" (the reader can not dispute that) + "toilets flush" (the reader can not dispute that), = "Therefore these things allow me to golf a hole-in-one". Since no one can dispute the foundations of this argument, therefore the result of my shooting a hole-in-one is un-questionable?

Nothing in our nervous systems, auros, energies, electrical impules, magnetism, conductive copper wires, etc... have anything to do with finding a metal object in a field, acres away ("2 miles", etc...). It's all conjecture held up with high-sounding $20 words. Scientists have debunked the strings of words before. Jerry Laden can comment more here, in this regard. The fact is, it works for you (as occult surely does to some), so, to avoid the stigma of it being occultic, people string together likely sounding buzz-words. But also, others, at the same time, and on the same forum, do continue to claim it's mental and metaphysical (a contradiction? Do you ever have debates within your ranks?).

Once again, don't take offence at my stance. I hope nothing I've said are "fighting words" I do enjoy the exchange, and do read your post. It's just that, if a schematic of a metal detector, both simple and complex, can be looked at in a blueprint, and be shown how it "beeps" over metal, no matter how many times, and no matter whom waves it, that sounds like science. But there are no blueprints or science that shows what you're saying. And it's not even in agreement amongst dowsers why it works, and theories vary, even amongst those in the "it's scientific" camp. That alone should make one wonder.
 

Dell, if those same "5 degreed geophysicists" looked at the schematics for a metal detector, what would their consensus/votes be?
 

Hey Tom....People keep trying to campare Dowsing to Metal Detectors. How can you compare a rod and the electrical system of a Metal Detector? I happen to Treasure Hunt with both....I know what each unit will do and what limits each have....Dell is right....Physical Dowsing and Mental Dowsing are different...It is not our fault that others can not understand what Dowsing is about...Art
 

Allo Gentle ladies and guys:

I had thought that I had posted my last one on dowsing a long time ago, but it seems that I must return for a while. It is a never ending game, similar to politics, religion, or female beauty.

HI af my former foe af, Tom & Jerry (hmm tom and Jerry?) nah ! Be aware that I am a believer in dowsing simply because it has worked for me. Also, it fits nicely into the results of years of study of the para-normal.

Ivan, Dell, aa etc., may I join you?

I will cut and paste from many of my former posts, simply because I was born lazy and have dedicated my life to not changing, successfully I might add. At least I had one sucess in my life, sigh.
c
Till Eulenspiegel alias Don Jose de La Mancha alias Tayopa
 

My statements are all true, totally accurate and completely supported by actual physical science.

If you had ever so much as cracked open a grade school science text, you would find all the credentials and validation that you could possibly want to see.

However, none of what you will find in that science text will discuss the occult practice of dowsing.

If you are going to attach scientific terms and physics to the occult practice that you conduct, please also provide the science references to support your theories. Since you haven't been able to do that in the last 40 years, I can't see you doing it in whatever time you have left.
Click to expand...

At your nearest library. Start with science texts for junior high school, and work your way up to senior high school texts.
Click to expand...

I see...Since it is not in the books Makes it a fact....Art
 

Art, Dell, et al, thanx for being man enough not to run from a spirited debate. I really respect you guys for that, and this dialogue IS interesting.

Ok, Dell and Real, you are hinting at your successes, as a part of the proof of this being legit. I have trouble with the outcome justifying the means. For starters, it would be difficult to show a find, attribute it to a dowsing or LRL, and hold it up as proof. The reason is, so often the dowsers go to likely spots to begin with (ruins, etc...) and dig a bunch of holes (writing off the dry holes to sun spots, etc...), and use a detector to pinpoint, and presto! Success! But let's assume for a minute that you truly did go out on a double-blind test, found a unplanted object in the middle of nowhere, no leads, no above board indications that've would've hinted at it, etc.... Ok, then some might take that as concrete proof that it works. But I'm not denying, from the start, that it might work. So too does various occult things, but that doesn't make partaking of them right. Yes, I know that you don't consider it occult (you may sincerely believe it's not), but for those of us that do, the "finds" proof don't hold water.

It would have to be shown to be first to have a scientific method, schematic, etc... of how it works. Then show me the finds, to wrap up the final proof.

Hey Real de Tayopa, thanx for coming on and admitting it's paranormal. Maybe Dell and Art should have a terse word with you, because they don't believe it's paranormal (do you guys ever debate within your ranks?)
 

For starters, it would be difficult to show a find, attribute it to a dowsing or LRL, and hold it up as proof. The reason is, so often the dowsers go to likely spots to begin with (ruins, etc...) and dig a bunch of holes (writing off the dry holes to sun spots, etc...), and use a detector to pinpoint, and presto! Success!
Click to expand...

OK Tom....Have you saw Dowsers who dig many holes or is your opinion from reading post about this subject? That is not the way I work...If it was working that way for me I would have tossed the rods many years ago. My rods are very accurate and pin point the object. I do use a Metal Detector sometimes when digging deep objects because it will fit in the hole and is much more accurate than hanging my heels over the edge of the hole. When digging it is easy to be going off course ...Art
 

HIO TOM: quote--
"I always love it when .... when all attempts to explain dowsing fail, someone will say it works d/t science "which are unknown to us at this time"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And this is impossible? We now know everthing there is to know about the universe and especially about the human body, psyche, etc.?? How it my be influenced by internal and external fields?? How it may be infuenced by our nearby neighboring Solar system bodies? seeesh. Remember, the human is nothing but a series of interconnecting electrical fields constantly modulating and interacting with each other and most are sensative to so called external fields
========================================================
Quote
"INothing in our nervous systems, auros, energies, electrical impules, magnetism, conductive copper wires, etc... have anything to do with finding a metal object in a field, acres away ("2 miles", etc...).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why not? ( hehhe)
=========================================================

till Eulenspeigel
 

HI Tom quote

"Hey Real de Tayopa, thanx for coming on and admitting it's paranormal. Maybe Dell and Art should have a terse word with you, because they don't believe it's paranormal (do you guys ever debate within your ranks?)"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So just what is the para-normal other than presently basically unknown or unproven human abilities? Obviously dowsing falls directly into this catagory.
.
As for agreeing, nope, but then who is in complete agreement on the various Universe theories? I personally favor the Holistic Universe since it tends to explain many many more things than the others, including dowsing. wouldn't you agree?.

Till Eulenspeigel
 

For other uses, see Occult (disambiguation).
The word occult comes from the Latin occultus (clandestine, hidden, secret), referring to "knowledge of the hidden".[1] In the medical sense it is used commonly to refer to a structure or process that is hidden, e.g. an "occult bleed."[2]
The word has many uses in the English language, popularly meaning "knowledge of the paranormal", as opposed to "knowledge of the measurable",[3][4] usually referred to as science. The term is sometimes popularly taken to mean "knowledge meant only for certain people" or "knowledge that must be kept hidden", but for most practicing occultists it is simply the study of a deeper spiritual reality that extends beyond pure reason and the physical sciences.[5] The terms esoteric and arcane can have a very similar meaning, and the three terms are often interchangeable.[6][7]
The term occult is also used as a label given to a number of magical organizations or orders, and the teachings and practices as taught by them. The name also extends to a large body of literature and spiritual philosophy.
Occultism
Occultism is the study of occult or hidden wisdom. To the occultist it is the study of "Truth", a deeper truth that exists beneath the surface: 'The truth is always hidden in plain sight'. It can involve such subjects as magic (alternatively spelled and defined as magick), extra-sensory perception, astrology, spiritualism, numerology and lucid dreaming. There is often a strong religious element to these studies and beliefs, and many occultists profess adherence to religions such as Buddhism, Christianity, Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Hinduism, Judaism, Luciferianism, Thelema, and Neopaganism.
The word "occult" is somewhat generic, in that most everything that isn't claimed by any of the major religions is considered to be occult (and many things that are). Even religious scientists have difficulties in defining occultism. A
 

OHIO JERRY: Sabres or keyboards? Your quote------

"Hey Jerry... Where can anyone find the Scientist Facts you talk about????Art
At your nearest library. Start with science texts for junior high school, and work your way up to senior high school texts

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately most of the data in them is outdated even before it is printed sigh.
=======================================================
Your quote--
"My statements are all true, totally accurate and completely supported by actual physical science"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hmm, none of my friends that can say that and they hold pHd's? HOWEVER, I am a different proposition, my Initiales aren't JC for nothing, I am getting closer daily.

shaddup heheh
=========================================================

Quote--
"However, none of what you will find in that science text will discuss the occult practice of dowsing."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SO??
=========================================================
Quote--
The basic dowsing response (an ideomotor effect) is probably the most compelling of any response that a human can experience. Lots of people, from all walks of life (and occupations) have been totally confounded by this response, and unless they make a conscious effort to fully understand it, they will remain confounded by it --to their dying day."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Agreed it is simple actually.
========================================================
Quote--On the contrary, it is the dowsers who keep associating dowsing instruments with many of the same scientific and technical terms that are "already" associated with (pure) electronic devices, such as metal detectors"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
since it is still in it's infant stage of mondern investigations, one tends to utilize wording from known protocols, since it hasn't developed it's own vocabulary and rules.
=========================================================

Till Eulenspeigel
 

Real de Tayopa, you're resorting back to the "un-discovered science" argument. Perhaps you didn't read what I said about that before, so I'll repeat again: Yeah sure, people thought the earth was flat and other such nonsense mistakes in history. Sure we revise based on new discoveries. But does that therefore mean, that ANYTHING anyone proposes, no matter how absurd, is to be given credibility, because .... afterall.... it's probably undiscovered science?

Like: wear two flat-irons, one on each shoe. Tape a magnet to your forehead, and another one to your left ear. Put a gold coin in your mouth, and wear a tin-foil hat. Now walk about with a pair of pliars (very important that they be painted blue). Aim your pliars at various ruins, dig lots of holes, use a detector to pinpoint, and I guarantee you that eventually, you will find something. If you doubt me, I merely have to tell you "it's undiscovered science". Be open minded! Give it a try!

You see the circular logic? Dowsers have an out for everything. If they're un-succesful, it's sunspots, or you need XX more years practice, etc.... If you claim it's not scientific, they say it's undiscovered science. If you show that it scientifically CAN'T be done, they'll tell you it's para-normal or mental, etc... If you try to show them that that borders on supernatural, (ala occult), they revert back to saying it's scientific. And round and round and round it goes. Circular logic to protect against all fronts. It's kind of like if I challenge someone to prove my invisible dog Bowser doesn't exist. If they say "he doesn't exist, because I'm looking right where you say he is, and there is no dog there". To which I reply "Precisely! That's because Bowser is invisible!"
 

Real de Tayopa, you say: "So just what is the para-normal other than presently basically unknown or unproven human abilities?" I think you have the definition of paranormal confused. In my dictionary, it defines paranormal as "supernatural".

If paranormal meant un-discovered human abilities, well then, they wouldn't be supernatural, now would they? They would be natural, yet unknown to us how they work now. But to say PARAnormal or SUPERnatural, is outside of our natural abilities.

So if you want to claim that it's a natural human ability (whether shared by many or only a few, whether understood now or not, etc...), then you can't use paranormal. The minute you do that, you are ascribing dowsing to things that are beyond normal. Hence you will have me and others say "Aha! he admits it!"
 

not normal --- normal would be most human would be that way or have "it" whatever "it" was -- there are some that can and do have "it" (heightend sensitivty) --there are those who do not have the "heighted sensitivity" of some people -- hince "normal" people aren't as "touchy" --- we all know of folks that are easily bothered by certain "things" like -- strong smells -- bright lights --- loud noises -- these folks have "heighted sensitivity" -- so they are not "normal" --if they were everyone would be like them --- but that does not make them into some sort of superhuman being but rather just a "touchy" or sensitive person --- there are differant forms of touchiness -- Ivan
 

Ivan, if one person has, in your example, a better sense of smell than another person, it doesn't mean the better smeller is "paranormal" or "supernatural". Both of those persons are both natural humans, within a range of natural abilities. In other words, take all the people in the world, and grade them on their ability to smell: From the greatest, on down to the worst smeller. ALL of them are natural, normal, etc... humans of this human realm.

But to be paranormal or supernatural, is go outside of the realm of what humans can naturally attain to. It is to exceed human ability. Do you get it now? So Real de Tayopa was doing a service to the skeptic's camp. A statement such as his, enables me (if I use his words as they mean) to suggest that he's admitting it's something outside of ourselves, spiritual, or whatever you want to call it.
 

ah I'm not speaking of his post--- but on rather what is considered "normal" -- normal is the "middle range" of the human ability --- if the weakest person could only lift 1 lb and the strongest person say 500 lbs --- and if they "adveraged" all the humans weight lifting abilitys and found out that say 150 lbs was the adverage --- they word say the "normal" or adverage person can lift 150 lbs --- normal means the "adverage" not the fringes ---1lb or 500 lbs-- it would be fair to say the range of a human beings wieght lifting ability is between 1 and 500 lbs --with the adverage or "normal" persons limit about 150 lbs -- the point I trying to get across is that it is not a supernatural or occult power but rather a natural but "rare" ability that SOME highly sensitive folks have -- that many folks not being as sensitive as the others do not have -- so the have nots think it is all a hocus pocus sham since they do not "feel" it --- which of course is quite understandible point of view --- Ivan
 

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