Gold Hawg: 1715 Fleet Find

[Bigcypresshunter]

I havent seen it either. Just guessing. But I am familiar with these type of hinge pins. I dont think there is anything to grip with the finger and they have to be punched out with a hammer and drift punch (or nail). These pins are usually made of steel. I dont think these gold pins would hold up very long being punched in and out. Again just my opinion as a mechanically minded person.

Unless they are very loose and can be pulled out with finger nails but I doubt it. They could easily be lost and if they were loose, they could fall out. I think they are meant to be permanent. One end does appear to have a head like a nail. Maybe they are like a rivet.

ADDED: link on pins and how to remove them. http://www.gunreports.com/special_r...l-Tapered-Ball-End-Grooved-Splined1648-1.html

 

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[Darren in NC]

Sorry if I'm throwing a wet blanket over things, but I'm not seeing the lamp idea. In my earlier brainstorming, I thought it might be a lamp. But then I remembered the scale and size of this beautiful pelican in Bonnie's hand. It's too tiny to be a lamp. A modern tea candle would hardly fit. Also, all candles being used at the altar are open above the flame...either it's an open holder or a vented one. This pelican doesn't have holes in the top, nor would it be a good idea to trap the heat/smoke of the flame within the head of the pelican.

I doubted it being a pyx since all those I have seen were designed with a compartment to hold the Eucharist. The pelican is too open in the middle for this. Even a small container holding the Eucharist doesn't have a place to "fit" it in the pelican's lower section.

I hate that I can study this and suggest what it is not. I wish I had suggestions for what it IS. While I really want this mystery to be solved (it's driven me crazy for countless hours), I believe the original craftsmen were practical and precise in their designs. I believe when the pelican's true identity is solved, it will be obvious. I do, however, applaud any and all efforts in trying to ID the greatest find of the 1715 fleet in a long time!

 

[elle]

Hi Darren...
The flame would not probably affect the metal.
The idea was to pour the oil, insert a wick, and light.
I believe there was enough open ventilation around the body of the pelican.
I also go back to one of my first theories why this piece was so small.
In one of the Royal Monasteries in Spain, there were literally 44 altars altogether.
The sanctuary lamps did not have to be huge art forms because it was the tiny
flickering light that held the significance.

Thank you for adding your opinions, Darren. You always share interesting angles to make us
brainstorm and evaluate. We could not have come this far if it wasn't for your contributions!

Laura

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Some Coleman lanterns have no holes in the very top but the problem I have is there is nothing to hold the wick if for oil. Is it for a wax candle, incense, Eucharist or something else? Are we back to square one? At least we know for sure its a Pelican.

I like the glass idea but then it would not be vented at all. Maybe the 3 side holes were to attach something.

 

[elle]

I forgot to thank you also, Bigcypresshunter, for your contributions.

Oil lamps contained a small amount of oil, and preferably olive oil was used by the church during the 1700's
(but I know in the missions they sometimes used animal fat). The wick simply floated.

You mentioned fingernails in one of your last posts. I do some of my research through
a religious library in Spain. Anyways, you made me giggle tonight because some of the
monks photosat their fingers on the books and documents.
Believe me, your tool list above is not needed all the time!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I forgot to thank you also, Bigcypresshunter, for your contributions.

Oil lamps contained a small amount of oil, and preferably olive oil was used by the church during the 1700's
(but I know in the missions they sometimes used animal fat). The wick simply floated.

You mentioned fingernails in one of your last posts. I do some of my research through
a religious library in Spain. Anyways, you made me giggle tonight because some of the
monks photosat their fingers on the books and documents.
Believe me, your tool list above is not needed all the time!

Ah, cork float. http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/MonMarkoviObjects.html I thought maybe the side ruby holes were somehow to support a wick. I suppose you dont need a wick at all. Thats the great thing about TN. It is a constant learning experience.



Sorry if the tool list was overkill but I always like to back up my thoughts with a pic or a link. Believe me, these pins are NOT made to be easily removed for access.. ...not without a hammer and/or pliers (or very strong fingernails lol). I imagine someone experienced could dissassemble the "hinges" for an occasional cleaning.

Here ya go. http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/monmichael.html http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/monmichael.html

I guess it is technically plausible to be a very small hanging oil lamp (with floating wick) But without the glass (because, as Darrin noted, there is no vent). Like I said, it all sounds good (except for these little issues) I gotta sleep; busy day tommorrow.

 

[Darren in NC]

You always share interesting angles to make us brainstorm and evaluate.

Yes, I tend to "stir the pot" with my need for definitive proof. In this case, it's a matter of engineering and design. I could pour oil in my model car (made of metal), insert a wick and light it. It would "function," but that doesn't make it a lamp.

If you study antique lamps, not ONE of them is designed in this way. Floating wicks tend to be used for desktop lights of readers and scribes of days gone by. They are open - with nothing above - to light up the room.

Altar lamps typically use candles and a glass casing, not floating wicks. Again, this design doesn't seem to fit.

At best, it might be a votive lamp on the side, but not an altar lamp.

Sorry if I'm hard-headed - that's not my goal. I just need it to make sense.

 

[elle]

http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/technology/oil_lamps.htm

Article says:
“Fill with olive oil.
A little oil goes a long way. Most fuels have pretty similar calorific value (energy content), so oil will last like a candle. This small lamp should easily last several hours (depending on the flame size).
Lamps like these could easily run all night and provide a permanent flame. Luke 12:35 It appears this was exactly what they did once.
Olive oil makes an excellent fuel as it has a high flash point. (It does not catch fire too easily)
It should be easy to light if oil has soaked right up the wick.
The interesting thing about olive oil is that is won't burn except on the wick. Olive oil seems to be inherently safe in this respect - no flammability problems. If the lamp is kicked over it either carries on as before or goes out. By tilting the lamp, oil can even drip from the wick without burning.
The absence of smoke-blackening in the tombs of the kings is also no difficult explanation. If olive-oil is used, there is very little smoke, and a suitable covering over the lamp, for which various methods readily suggest themselves, would very easily prevent carbon being deposited on the ceiling."

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I wonder when they started using whale oil? http://www.petroleumhistory.org/OilHistory/pages/Whale/whale.html

 

[cpt scuba]

i know i dont have the right to say anything .. but do you think that anyone skilled enough to make this really had no idea what a pelican looked like

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

i know i dont have the right to say anything .. but do you think that anyone skilled enough to make this really had no idea what a pelican looked like

I dont have any right either but I post anyway lol. The more thoughts the better I think. While I agree that the American Indian craftsman had no idea what an Egyptian Pelican looked like, I think they may have had paintings, jewelry and other artworks to use as reference. If not, the Spaniards told them nicely what they wanted.

 

[mad4wrecks]

i know i dont have the right to say anything .. but do you think that anyone skilled enough to make this really had no idea what a pelican looked like

That is a very good observation Capt. Scuba. Besides having a curved beak rather than a straight bill, the artifact has talons rather than webbed feet. Damndest looking pelican I've ever seen. I suggested it was an eagle early on and how that tied into Roman Catholicism but I got over-ruled because Gene Lyons thought differently.

Tom

 

[Darren in NC]

...do you think that anyone skilled enough to make this really had no idea what a pelican looked like

If the Spaniards gave them this as an idea, then they did pretty well.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Guys, this is not an American Pelican. I think it looks damn good.

Im not sure if its a mythical bird or a a real pelican that lived in Egypt in Roman times (or still lives there today) but its obviously not the pelican that we are used to seeing at the docks. http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast244.htm The illustration of the pelican is highly standardized, and is found in a large variety of settings, including many kinds of manuscripts, sculptures, and church carvings such as misericords. The arrangement of the mother pelican and her young has come to be called "the pelican in her piety"; it consists of the mother standing over her dead (or reviving) chicks, her head bent down in a graceful curve to cut open her breast and drip blood on her young. In some illustrations the mother feeds her blood to the chicks, or the chicks reach up to catch the falling drops of blood. A few manuscripts (such as British Library, Harley MS 4751, f. 46r) show the entire story of the mother killing the chicks and then reviving them. http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast244.htm

 

[mad4wrecks]

Here is a picture of a pelican that John White, an Englishman, drew....in 1587.

I also did a google image search of worldwide pelican breeds and they pretty much all look the same-straight, flat bill and webbed feet.

Also, I may have missed the post where it was decided the artifact was made by Indian craftsmen

C'mon Elle, step in here anytime you want-I know you will prove me wrong!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Here is a picture of a pelican that John White, an Englishman, drew....in 1587.

I also did a google image search of worldwide pelican breeds and they pretty much all look the same-straight, flat bill and webbed feet.

Also, I may have missed the post where it was decided the artifact was made by Indian craftsmen

C'mon Elle, step in here anytime you want!

LOL

I am just guessing. I dont know who made it. Maybe it was made in Spain and brought back to America. I dont think it matters in the conversation. I am also not a biologist and I am not familiar with the entire species Pelicanus. I am only familiar with the Common Brown Pelican of Florida and I agree with you there that it is not a match. It is however a very good match with the Catholic "Pelican in Piety." As I stated before I dont know if its a real or mythological creature. Please Elle HELP LOL Im outta here. http://tinyurl.com/39a4vrt

If all the pelicans have flat bill webbed feet etc than the bird may be completely fictional. Good observation Tom. I dont know just throwing around thoughts. I thought it was Egyptian. Maybe someone can tell us.

 

[elle]

I have done some new research on this matter
and my dear friend, Tom, evidently wants me to speak out

By the way, Tom, you have done a wonderful job in the
past with your research and I give you lots of praise and respect.

Ok...
it is not a Pelican "in her piety."

There is a reason there are no young birds under the bird's breast and why there is no blood depicted.
There is a reason why everyone here keeps asking how a pelican can have a head and claws as the one
recently found.
There is also a reason why the body is open and new evidence shows it is not a sanctuary lamp.
The size at 5 1/2 inches it is way too small to be a lamp to hold wax or oil. Darren, thumbs up for you
And Troy, you also did an awesome job with your investigating. I can't begin to tell all you guys how wonderful you are
for contributing....Bigcypresshunter...you too! You are brilliant in so many posts.

Laura

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I think we are going in circles.

 

[elle]

It is the Christian symbolic bird called a PHOENIX.

That is what Bonnie found.



Remember, an image was based from one artist's perspective. I have gone into dozens of
antiquity collections.
I have seen pelicans on supposedly "Holy Spirit" pendants and swans miraculously becoming pelicans in piety.
One thing I am certain is that Bonnie's find is a Christian phoenix which represents resurrection.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Elle, your golden bird looks exactly like a Pelican in Piety but I am not qualified to say either way. I can only make guesses and observations and I am often called out on it but debate is good. Google "Pelican in Piety" and you will see plenty examples. IMO Bonnies find is not the Phoenix bird.