Gold Hawg: 1715 Fleet Find

[Red_desert]

The artifact suddenly becomes more significant. Anointing of olive oil predates Christianity and it was used in the Hebrew's ceremony to anoint kings, such as king David. Perhaps the tradition in the Middle East goes back 3,000+ years BC. In New Testament times, olive oil was used to anoint the sick for prayers.

 

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[elle]

My most recent objective was to prove that the phoenix was an accepted symbol
and widely used art form within the territories of Spanish rule. I concluded that the Spanish Catholics
used the phoenix for centuries.

The artist, Pieter van der Borcht, was born in Malines in the Netherlands, around 1540.
He moved to Antwerp later on in life and it is important to know that this part of the Netherlands was under control
of the Spanish King, Philip II.
Van der Borcht illustrated many liturgical books mainly for the Spanish market.

Here is one of his drawings of the phoenix.
It is remarkable how van der Borcht's phoenix closely resembles Bonnie's bird.
Look closely at the feathers. They are like what Wallace Stevens described in his poem of a golden bird,
"Of Mere Being" (1954): "The bird's fire-fangled feathers dangle down."

I need to get back to my own studies now. Hope it helps.

 

[elle]

I did want to add one other thing I found.

There are few descriptions of the phoenix in writings from early centuries.
One can skim what St. Epiphanius wrote, but Pliny the Elder (http://bestiary.ca/prisources/psdetail529.htm)
described something very interesting about the phoenix you all might like to read.
His work, Natural History, was republished many times. The following picture shows his book
in a 1669 edition that came out a few decades before the Spanish fleet of 1715 left New Spain.


He gave the following description of the phoenix:
"It is said that there is only one in existence in the whole world, and that that one has not been seen very often. We are told that this bird is of the size of an eagle, and has a brilliant golden plumage around the neck, while the rest of the body is of a purple colour; except the tail, which is azure, with long feathers intermingled of a roseate hue; the throat is adorned with a crest, and the head with a tuft of feathers."
Natural History, Book X, Chapter 2

The dictionary describes a bird's throat as the section of plumage that extends from the base of the bird's mandible to the
upper boundaries of its breast.

Now that would mean the PHOENIX was one of the few birds ever described as having A POINTED TUFT OF FEATHERS ON ITS UPPER BREAST.
What is a tuft? The next picture shows a tuft on the head of the bird. Looks like a small pointed separate growth of feathers
that sticks out, correct?

The next illustration shows another phoenix from a woodcut (Rome, 1577). Does anyone see a crest on the breast of this phoenix?
Maybe the breast of Bonnie's bird, with its marking, was the artist's way to show it was a phoenix with that unusual
characteristic.
I, myself, want to believe it is the Sacred Heart also, but that's only because it is one of my favorite devotions.
I shall stick to pure research instead of preference.

 

[mariner]

This has been an interesting topic, on a number of levels, especially to somebody like me with a Catholic upbringing. Particular thanks to Laura and to Darryl for their contributions.

I note that the capsule that is bringing the trapped Chilean miners to the surface is called "Phoenix", perhaps named because of all the religious as well as mythical connotations associated with the bird.

Mariner

 

[elle]

Thanks Mariner!
I also read this morning the name of the invention that rescued the miners and found it quite ironic.
My grandfather worked in the coal mines, and everytime I visited him before he died, he was sitting in the sun.
Now you know one of the reasons why I like this:

Just another thought for those putting the clues together:

"During the Renaissance, the phoenix was a popular emblem of martyrs like Joan of Arc."
http://media.swarthmore.edu/bulletin/?p=117

Saint Joan of Arc, on the way to war, carried a white banner that represented God blessing the French royal emblem,
the fleur-de-lis. She was later burned at the stake. Do you see why this beautiful martyr is like a phoenix?
I am not saying Bonnie's bird was intended for the French, although we all know King Philip V was the grandson
of King Louis XIV of France.
What I am suggesting is that Catholics throughout Europe and the New World used symbols and art forms
to reflect their beliefs and special devotions. The phoenix was widely used in the Catholic faith from the Renaissance
through the Baroque periods.

 

[mad4wrecks]

I don't think my idea of the artifact being associated with Our Lady of Guadalupe should be discounted. However, like other theories presented here, it cannot be proved, or disproved.

"According to tradition the image of the Virgin Mary appeared miraculously on the cloak of Juan Diego, a simple indigenous peasant, on the hill of Tepeyac near Mexico City on December 12, 1531. Today it is displayed in the Basilica of Guadalupe nearby, the most visited Catholic shrine in the world."

This shrine was completed in 1709, a very big event in Mexico City, which would dovetail nicely with the arrival of the ships of the 1715 fleet (in 1713) and Bonnie's find from one of Ubilla's ships of the Flota de Nova Espana which served the trade of Mexico and Manilla Galleons out of Vera Cruz.

In 1700, she was referred to as "the Phoenix of the Indies!" Our Lady of Guadalupe is still quite revered in Mexico.

Although as Laura mentioned, the phoenix was quite prominent in Catholic history, I cannot recall any other artifact of this nature being found on a shipwreck.

 

[elle]

Tom, I'm sorry. I did not mean to dismiss your connection of Our Lady of Guadalupe (who was called
the "Mexican Phoenix" by some).
You made an excellent point and I give you praise Great Job!

The phoenix was also a symbol in the Catholic Church to represent Our Lady and the virgin birth because the
phoenix was born without a spouse.

Incidentally, Queen Elizabeth wore a phoenix pendant. Maybe to represent her purity and virginity?

Before I researched that Bonnie's bird was phoenix, and thought it was a pelican, I was convinced it came in the
small shipment from Peru that was on the sunken ship at Douglas Beach. St. Gertrude was being praised in the late
1600's in Peru along with St. Rose of Lima. Christ had appeared to St. Gertrude as a pelican shedding His blood.

Now that I know it is a phoenix, I can stretch the possibility of its origin to other countries. Sure, there is a great
possibility this relic was made in Mexico where Our Lady of Guadalupe was so revered and familiar to artists.
My hunch, though, tells me the bird was not created as a representation of Mother Mary, but rather as the symbol for Christ.

I say this because I am convinced, through research, that this relic was created to hold Holy Oil.
Birds that symbolized Christ were used as vessels for centuries to hold oil for anointing.

Here is a picture of a Holy Oil ampulla. I believe Bonnie's phoenix was intended to do the same in one
of the sanctuaries of Spanish Royalty.
Yes, this is a French ampulla. The Holy Oil tradition (with the use of a bird symbol) within the Catholic Church
of France, I believe, was being handed down to Spain by the French-born King, Philip V.
England, of course, had its golden Eagle to enclose Holy Oil, but my goal is the research connecting the
Catholic Church between France and Spain during the reign of King Philip V.

Laura

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The Phoenix bird has been used by many different countries for many years and not just the Catholic church. There are Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Egyptian and Native American counterparts of the Phoenix. It can be found depicted in many different variations and I guess its certainly a possibility...

I could jump on the bandwagon but IMO I think you need to prove why this find CANNOT be a Pelican in Piety if you want to overturn Lyons ID.. Unless I missed it, I cannot see any reason why Bonnies find cannot be a Pelican in Piety.. Correct me if Im wrong. May I also suggest writing to Mr. Lyons. Just a thought.

 

[elle]

I wanted to clarify the usage of Bonnie's phoenix that perhaps held an ampulla. Even though this artifact
was likely commissioned to be made by the Royal Treasury or Church Treasury, I feel its purpose needs to be
kept in perspective.
It would be astonishing if an ampulla contained in this relic held oil to anoint (sick and dying, baptism,
confirmation, inauguration of kings) members of the Spanish royal family but there is more to its history
that we may never know. *I am omitting Sacrament of Holy Orders (ordination of the clergy)
only because our object in question contains the "fleur-de-lis" which was particularly associated with royalty.
Medieval glossaries also suggest the phoenix was a "royal bird," as it represented a king and the concept of
succession (The Myth of the Phoenix According to Classical and Early Christian Traditions, Van den Broek, p. 51).

The purpose of the ampulla and the vessel it was reserved in was to enshrine the holiness of its contents.
It is quite possible Bonnie's bird was a reliquary. The ampulla or flask could have contained material associated
with a pilgrim site, sacred event or even the remains of a saint. Holy oil, water, or soil could have been preserved
and displayed in this. The ampulla and its receptacle would have been mounted or hung at the altar in an upright
position.

No matter what the flask held, I feel correct in concluding that the relic is a phoenix which held
an ampulla. The fact that the phoenix represents the resurrection, most likely suggests its use with Holy
oil for anointing the sick, or for the sacrament of Baptism, where rebirth is achieved by one dying and rising
with Christ.

This artifact makes us think beyond the glitter and gold of treasure hunting. Its significance goes
beyond wordly goods. I get the chills envisioning a lost ampulla on the ocean bottom of Douglas Beach that
perhaps reserved the remains of a New World martyr or saint.
Or the story that Tom enlightened us of, Our Lady of Guadalupe. What if the ampulla held the Holy oil or water
from this pilgrim site outside of Mexico City?
What if the artifact was going back empty, and a Bishop later on was going to place oil from the Holy Land in it?
Lastly, what if the relic was going to be used on the baptism day of King Philip V's son in August of 1716, or
used during the last rites of a king?

The significance of one artifact found from the ocean could forever change one's thoughts and views.
Thank you again, Bonnie, for sharing this relic with the world. I know, indeed, you were chosen to find it.

Laura

p.s. Hi Bigcypresshunter, I was writing while you posted. In regards to Mr. Lyons, I completely respect and honor
the man. As a matter of fact, it was he who inspired me to become a historian. He once told me I had the ability
to write whatever I wanted, and that is indeed what I am doing with my own research.
There can be more than one historian in the world, each focusing on different studies.
I have a particular interest in the artifacts of the Catholic Church, and he may
be wiser than me in another area. I respect his answer, but I am giving mine now. There is no contest who is right or
wrong, because life should be a contribution of everyone working together to do God's work.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I respect his answer, but I am giving mine now. There is no contest who is right or
wrong, because life should be a contribution of everyone working together to do God's work.

I understand... 8) but the artifact is one or the other. From my experience in the What Is It forum, the best way to silence one theory (Pelican) and to further promote another (Phoenix) would be to find proof as to why this cannot be a Pelican... And dont say because it doesnt have webbed feet!

If the evidence is there to overturn the Pelican ID, Im sure you are the one to find it!

 

[elle]

I can sum it up in one sentence.

The pelican "in her piety" would not be the proper symbolic bird to use with an ampulla
of Holy oil in the Catholic Church, but rather a dove or phoenix.

 

[mad4wrecks]

The more I read into this, the more I concur with Elle. I think she is on the right track here. It has been fascinating researching the purpose of this wonderful artifact, truly one of the most amazing to come off the 1715 fleet. The Real Eight guys would have loved this!

 

[elle]

There is more to my research that I just don't have the time to write out.
However, I will add this. The origin of a flask of Holy oil set within a bird started in
France with the great event that occurred between King Clovis and Saint Remi. Please google
"Sainte Ampoule" and you can read the entire legend.
England adopted their own bird, which I explained in an earlier post, as Saint Thomas Becket had a vision
of Mother Mary and an eagle.
The intriguing part of this story, for me, is that I am continuing my investigation how the French culture, especially
through religion, impacted the country of Spain.

The fleur-de-lis is a major clue on the bird.
It is not a lily but a yellow iris, and this was the emblem chosen by Clovis, the first King of France. The
iris then became the symbol of the French monarchy and consequently used by the Spanish.

Bigcypresshunter, I know you want a definite answer, for it is human nature.
I want to thank you for asking and pushing for a conclusion. I have got to know so many of you in the
last years, and I see so many wonderful individuals who truly want to help others with their love for
history. My passion, and what I'm currently doing, is the documentation of the true story of the 1715 fleet.
That which is being done to the best of my ability, through research, including the identification of certain artifacts found.
One day Bonnie's bird is going to be in a museum where I will take my great-grandchildren. They will say, "Look, the
plaque says it's a pelican!" If I didn't step in and contribute, I would deeply regret it.

 

[elle]

Some more thoughts for a wonderful Sunday in October!

The phoenix through legend supposedly bathed in holy water, and was closely connected with oils and spices.
These would have included the oil of myrrh and the spices of cinnamon and cassia.
This bird was said to have roamed the lands feeding upon oils of balsam and frankincense.
Do you know the Holy Chrism Oil of the Catholic Church is olive oil mixed with a small amount of balsam?

The phoenix, the symbol of the resurrection, is like a butterfly. From its old form state, the butterfly
experiences rebirth and turns into a beautiful new form.
The chrysalis, or butterfly pupa, represents this.
Doesn't a chrysalis resemble a flask that could hold Holy oil? One that could have been put in Bonnie's phoenix
where the Holy oil was enshired?

 

[elle]

Bonnie, I meant to show you this the other night, but I forgot.

In the 1669 version of Natural History, the phoenix was described as having a crest
on its throat (please see post from October 13th). The throat extends down to the upper breast and a
crest is defined as a showy growth of feathers or skin.

On this website, http://www.mdahlem.net/birds/23/spotbowr.php, one can view of the back of a
Spotted Bowerbird with its pink nuchal crest. I flipped the Bowerbird's crest to see if your relic could
possibly be displaying a crest in the upper body area. I hope this sheds more light.

 

[elle]

I searched for more sketches of the phoenix bird that were drawn in the 17th century
to see if the particular artist of Bonnie's bird was inspired visually, along with the words of description
from ancient authors.

The constellation of the phoenix was discovered in 1603 by the German astronomer, Johann Bayer.
He has a picture of the phoenix in his book, Uranometria.
In 1690, Johannes Hevelius revealed the phoenix in his publication, Prodromus Astronomiae.

 

[Darren in NC]

It's amazing what you see when it's on your mind. I saw a phoenix in the sky this evening, so I ran to get my camera. By the time I returned, it was scattered more, but I think you can still see it.

 

[captbonnie]

The story of the phoenix is riveting ...but so is that of the pelican.

so much to think about - i haven't had much time for reading - had the fresh water pump go on the engine
kept us in the last good weather but hope to make Thursday

as Darren noted the "back" opening is larger - it is a bit hard to picture the chains with the missing wing but probably would have hung fairly upright or
straight
I am puzzled too by the "ruby holes" .. they seem too large and round just to have been ornamental - my first guess was some sort of insert suspended by the holes
supporting an object in the middle of the body opening. can't picture baby pelicans - this bird looks so uncluttered, so strong, a detailed but clean design

the ampulla theory was also given to me by Augi Garcia - who works with Dan Sedwick

while fanning out the bird found a small oval piece of what I thought was dark glass but Bill id'd at the lab as possibly tortoise shell - don't think it is related to the bird but you all are coming up with so much info thought I'd toss that in. keep thinking about what might have been there along with it, what was in the center. maravedi turned out to be a 1630 not 1650 as at first look. I am so anxious to get back out there.

You know, Elle, it is strange that so many times I have told someone about finding it and see tears come to their eyes (mine too)....it has an effect. I could never have imagined finding something like this, always thinking oh yeah here's the pile of gold coins when I got a hit, laughing about getting the coin buckets ready, dreaming of gold bars and silver bars and all the treasure dreams we all have - this was beyond imagination and it still is. a sense of wonder - beyond thought, the beauty of it is when you see it you don't think, you feel - maybe that is what you mean by a symbol - we react with our heart and not our mind - like seeing a rainbow or a sunset and not thinking that it is the moisture in the air, or the reflection of light, or the angle of the sun's rays. I like your phoenix in the sky Darren!

 

[theseeker]

The story of the phoenix is riveting ...but so is that of the pelican.

so much to think about - i haven't had much time for reading - had the fresh water pump go on the engine
kept us in the last good weather but hope to make Thursday

as Darren noted the "back" opening is larger - it is a bit hard to picture the chains with the missing wing but probably would have hung fairly upright or
straight
I am puzzled too by the "ruby holes" .. they seem too large and round just to have been ornamental - my first guess was some sort of insert suspended by the holes
supporting an object in the middle of the body opening. can't picture baby pelicans - this bird looks so uncluttered, so strong, a detailed but clean design

the ampulla theory was also given to me by Augi Garcia - who works with Dan Sedwick

while fanning out the bird found a small oval piece of what I thought was dark glass but Bill id'd at the lab as possibly tortoise shell - don't think it is related to the bird but you all are coming up with so much info thought I'd toss that in. keep thinking about what might have been there along with it, what was in the center. maravedi turned out to be a 1630 not 1650 as at first look. I am so anxious to get back out there.

You know, Elle, it is strange that so many times I have told someone about finding it and see tears come to their eyes (mine too)....it has an effect. I could never have imagined finding something like this, always thinking oh yeah here's the pile of gold coins when I got a hit, laughing about getting the coin buckets ready, dreaming of gold bars and silver bars and all the treasure dreams we all have - this was beyond imagination and it still is. a sense of wonder - beyond thought, the beauty of it is when you see it you don't think, you feel - maybe that is what you mean by a symbol - we react with our heart and not our mind - like seeing a rainbow or a sunset and not thinking that it is the moisture in the air, or the reflection of light, or the angle of the sun's rays. I like your phoenix in the sky Darren!

Bonnie, wish you luck in finding other parts of your golden bird that would help in identifying what it is exactly. Great research going on here by many of the forum members that is fascinating!

 

[jeff k]

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2010/oct/27/vero-beach-mother-daughter-team-find-solid-gold/