Gold Hawg: 1715 Fleet Find

[elle]

This picture here shows a phoenix.

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

This picture here shows a phoenix.

I dont know where you found it but that bird is a terrific match and great research to find it.. I would have to study the link with any supporting evidence to see why they would call it a Phoenix.

The feathers look eerily similar.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Does the Phoenix bird also mythologically peck its chest to draw blood and feed its young?

 

[elle]

You can read about the phoenix with St. Clement who was a Bishop of Rome.

I don't believe Bonnie's phoenix is vulning.
Many phoenix birds have their head down.
Do you see baby birds or blood?

I do see the Sacred Heart instead.
Remember it is what the artist visualized and wanted to create.
I contacted a priest, a scholar, who has spent his entire life studying the Roman catacombs.
He also confirmed that it is a phoenix and has seen this in the Christian catacombs.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I also dont see Phoenix under the golden bird (pic you posted) lol.

The only reason why the ID made by Lyons was questioned because it doesnt look like a common Brown Pelican which of course it is not. Personally I see no reason whatsover to question the ID already made.

If yall think it could be something else than all I can do is stand back and let others post their replies. I already gave my opinion and it hasnt yet changed. I will of course read any links or evidence presented.


ADDED: I guess what Im saying is, yes, it looks like a Phoenix, but I see no overwhelming evedence to overturn Lyons ID. I see no reason whatsoever that it cannot be a Pelican in Piety.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Elle, I searched a bit for your gold Phoenix bird but I cant find it online and I give up. Is the picture from the internet? It would be cool to read about it. Did it say anything? What is its purpose? Who made it? In what year? The feathers are eerily similar.

 

[Darren in NC]

The distinction between a pelican and phoenix is visually unclear. You would expect a pelican's feet to be webbed and a phoenix's to be talon-like. Yet in these photos the feet are neither. They are straight out as Bonnie's version is. Incidentally, the second looks more like a phoenix, while clearly a pelican in piety.

 

[Darren in NC]

This picture here shows a phoenix.

Do you see baby birds or blood?

Not in Bonnie's version, but in the picture you offer, I see blood clearly. What's the story of a phoenix drawing blood?

Not all pelicans in piety had baby birds, either.

 

[Darren in NC]

I contacted a priest, a scholar, who has spent his entire life studying the Roman catacombs.
He also confirmed that it is a phoenix and has seen this in the Christian catacombs.

Laura, I would love to hear more about this. Really, I would. This whole thing gets more mysterious as we delve further into it. Thanks for poking at it so much.

This really means a lot to me. I grew up in Louisiana. If you'll look at the state flag and the state seal, they both have the Pelican in Piety centered on them. This thread has opened up nostalgic feelings from home.

I have no preference to Bonnie's bird being a pelican or a phoenix, but I am very curious nonetheless!

 

[mad4wrecks]

Perhaps the phoenix has to do with Our Lady of Guadalupe and Juan Diego?

The majestic Basílica de Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe was completed in 1709.

The eagle/bird/phoenix is very prominent in both Aztec and Mexican history.

 

[elle]

The phoenix was the "mythological" version of the pelican, mixed with an eagle, and the dove, etc...
however the artist wanted to see and create it.
The meaning all comes down to be God. It is Jesus who resurrected and died for our sins.
The bird represents Christ and that is its meaning. The fleur-de-lis on Bonnie's bird represents the Trinity.
Everyone is analyzing every single detail on it (which is good) but each trait won't match up exactly to
become a pelican, dove, eagle, etc...
That is why it is a phoenix.
Darren, I see now the blood on the phoenix, and you are right. I did not look close enough.
I'm assuming the artist took the phoenix, in this case, and showed the vulning to represent Christ who shed
His blood.
As I said before, the phoenix could be displayed by the imagnination of the artist. Bottom line, is that
the birds are Christ who died and resurrected. Whether there be blood, a baby, webbed feet, a long beak, a short,
whatever, a phoenix was designed by the artist to represent Christ. This wasn't just in Baroque art, but throughout the
many centuries. That is why some pelicans in piety are drawn to be phoenix-like also, and yes, are vulning.
I have seen a phoenix displayed to represent a "pelican in piety." This was perhaps what the artist envisioned
at the time he created it.
This picture is another phoenix. It looks more like an eagle, right? Can't quite make out which bird?
It is how the artist designed a phoenix to be Our Lord, Our God.

In regards to the artifact Bonnie found:
The opened body of the phoenix held a small bulb-type container that had the Holy Oil to annoint the dying.
That is why the phoenix is the resurrection, a symbol to bring peace and hope to ones near death.
Before dying, the phoenix built a nest of frankincense, myrrh, etc. This represented the "oil for the sick,"
as is said today. Since this bird represented Christ, it might have even held the
"Oil of Catechumens" or the "Holy Chrism" oil, depending on what the religious ceremony was.
Bonnie's relic, being 22 karats gold, was a phoenix meant for important use, perhaps with royalty.

Laura

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The Phoenix has larger stronger feet. If this was a fire underneath, instead of a fleur-de-lis, I would change my mind.

 

[captbonnie]

Hi all .. what a lot of wonderful photos and discussion

like Laura's point that this is a "representation" - not meant to be a replica of a living actual bird but a symbolic expression of legend and belief - the phoenix and the pelican images are similar -
the area on the breast where the beak touches must stand for something whether vulning or the sacred heart -

had decided our season was over and had started to lay up the dive boat (haul out plans were delayed) but spent all day putting tanks and gear back in place and rigging the anchors - looks as if we might have a few days of weather and planning to go out tomorrow.

still feel as if part of the mystery of the "bird" is out there - what it is and where it is I sure don't know - just know I want to keep looking

Bonnie

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Yes the Phoenix and Pelican are very similar in many ways..

Can we see a pic of the Sacred Heart of Jesus on a bird or animal?

 

[Darren in NC]

Okay, I finally sat down for half a day and pored over the older texts (yes, Google Books) and read all I could about our mystery pelican. Try searching through heraldry, armory and family crest symbolism. I kept most of my sources dated pre-Civil War. Here are some of my preliminary observations...

The phoenix was the "mythological" version of the pelican, mixed with an eagle, and the dove, etc...
however the artist wanted to see and create it...
...Everyone is analyzing every single detail on it (which is good) but each trait won't match up exactly to become a pelican, dove, eagle, etc...

You are spot-on here, Laura. I kept trying to separate each bird and ID it according to its traits. But the more I've read, the birds were actually interchangeable in art. The same exact rendering might in one case be a phoenix, and in another be called a pelican or eagle. It truly was as you said, "...however the artist wanted to see it and create it."

The meaning all comes down to be God. It is Jesus who resurrected and died for our sins.
The bird represents Christ and that is its meaning.

Again spot-on. Specifically the "Pelican in Piety" represents the sacrificial work of Christ, while the Phoenix rising from the ashes represents the resurrection of Christ.

That is why it is a phoenix.

I have yet to be convinced of this, though I would definitely agree that Bonnie's pelican is rendered to look more like a phoenix.

The fleur-de-lis on Bonnie's bird represents the Trinity.

Yes, indeed. It began as a French symbol, but was quickly adopted by the Spanish and English as is depicted on their coins of similar time periods. It was also adopted by the New Orleans Saints!

In regards to the artifact Bonnie found: The opened body of the phoenix held a small bulb-type container that had the Holy Oil to annoint the dying.

Laura, I'll let you expound on this more, but I believe this makes more sense than any other explanation. Mind you, I'd still like to have more definitive proof from the texts and contacts you have. But I can see this working for actual medicine oil or for last rites. I do believe it would have been mounted in a wealthy home (nobility?) to a wall bracket or a post with a curved top. Small vials of oil for traveling was very common - and is even so today, so I doubt a pelican/phoenix like Bonnie's would have been portable.

I'd like to see the other side of the "sacred heart" on Bonnie's pelican. It could indeed be one. Tradition holds that the real pelican was noticed for having a scar on its breast. We now know (and they may have known then) that the pelican would firmly press its lower pouch beak against its breast to pour out food over the nest until the brood learned to feed from the pouch. This inevitably left a wound or scar. Bonnie's pelican could just be a scar, an open wound, or a sacred heart. I'd like to see the other side.

A few other interesting things I noticed about Bonnie's find. The hinges aren't separated the same. The back is more open while the side "wing" hinges are closer to the front. This may give credence to Laura's idea that a bulb-shaped vial of oil was placed inside from the rear of the pelican. I also wonder if the hinge holes were there to hang baby pelicans designed for the piece since they would have been located directly to the front and side (far-fetched, but an idea I had).

I am still open to it being a small hanging lamp (not an altar lamp). A small candle holder or open oil container could have been placed there from the rear. But the lack of venting at the top still makes me doubt this.

The other thing I noticed is the location of the chains. They are not spread around to distribute the weight evenly. In fact, unless it's an optical illusion, they are almost in a straight line from wing-neck-wing. This also helps in tilting the pelican to access the open back. It would be more difficult to do this if the chains were even all the way around.

Bonnie, can you verify the openness of the back and the semi-straight line of the hanging points?

All in all this still doesn't solve the riddle, but I've thoroughly enjoyed the research!

 

[elle]

Darren, thank you my colleague.

I apologize that I confused everyone on this research, for that was not my intention.
To find an answer, one must go down many different avenues before getting to a stoplight.
When I concluded that the bird was not a pelican, but a phoenix, my theories had to change on its meaning
and purpose what it was used for.
It could not be a pyx, and it could not be a lamp because of its small size.

Did anyone take the time to read about St. Clement? He was a wonderful inspiration in Rome. Incidentally,
he was thrown into the sea to his death with an iron anchor.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm

Saint Clement wrote of the phoenix: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm.
"Chapter 25. The Phœnix an Emblem of Our Resurrection.
Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phœnix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the deed bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed."

The "fleur-di-lis" on the artifact found represents the Trinity. It also was part of St. Clement's words in Chapter 58.
"A passage on the Holy Trinity is important. Clement uses the Old Testament affirmation 'The Lord liveth', substituting the Trinity thus: 'As God liveth, and the Lord Jesus Christ liveth and the Holy Spirit — the faith and hope of the elect, so surely he that performeth.' "

The sacred heart had become a flourishing symbol by the early 1700's. St. Margaret Mary Alacoque was chosen by God
to initiate its meaning to the world in the second half of the seventeenth-century. It spread to the New World and
was a new image of hope drawn by many artists. There is not a definite answer as to what the artist
was thinking when he created the breast of Bonnie's bird. No one will have that answer until he gets to heaven
and asks the artist. Whether he meant it to be a sacred heart or a scar of vulning, both represent Christ.

The Holy Oil residing in the center of a bird was a concept accepted in many countries, especially when it had
to do with the elite of society. I truly believe this is the answer because of its small size and what the phoenix represents.

Again, I'm sorry. My intention is not to start a debate or put anyone's theories down. I just want to use the gift
God gave me as a historian to try to help others.

Laura

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I keep thinking something is missing. I think we havent solved the so called "ruby holes." (the holes in the hinge pieces)

 

[REALESALVAGE]

Hello all, Hello Laura, I am not sure about Mr Lions conclusion eather. I have the up-most respect for this man but I also have a few questions unanswered. I hope this is not the final answer until there is definitive proof or the research will continue If it is a Phoenix it would only make sense that there was fire in it, because the Phoenix is THE FIRE BIRD ,only VERY FEW Pict's of them show VULNING? I had ID the bird as a Phoenix the first day I saw it also, but dismissed it after a closer look at the vulning. and the wing position. It was a artist's rendition so it could have been a combination of the two, I will give you that. It could have had fire, an egg or ashes or incense or oil so many things we may never know for sure? Never the less it is an amazing Religious artifact the Pelican in her Piety is the most likely for this bird. If research does actually point to it being a Phoenix than overruled it must be. We need more pictures as most all Phoenix's depicted have wings spread high and out to the sides. if suspended does the wing of the bird in question RAISE UP? I don't think it does and the tips of the wings are usually pointed high and spread not down, are they positioned correctly? Just because a Photo says Phoenix does not make it one. Maybe the photo is mislabeledand it is a Pelican in her Piety? I Can say I have enjoyed working on this and although I do not get to be on here much I look forward to it everytime I log on. Whatever the outcome I am pleased to have worked on this mystery, All you guys and gals have done so much great research here, KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK EVERYONE!
I hope I will be next to find something exciting... Gone Treasure Diving... Today,s the Day...

Phoenix (mythology)
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This article is about the mythological bird. For other uses, see Phoenix.

The phoenix depicted in the Aberdeen Bestiary (ca. 12thC).
Phoenix depicted in the book of mythological creatures by F.J. Bertuch (1747-1822).The phoenix (Ancient Greek: Φοῖνιξ, phoínix, Persian: ققنوس, Arabic: العنقاء) is a mythical sacred firebird that can be found in the mythologies of the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Chinese, and (according to Sanchuniathon) Phoenicians.

A phoenix is a mythical bird that is a fire spirit with a colorful plumage and a tail of gold and scarlet (or purple, blue, and green according to some legends). It has a 500 to 1000 year life-cycle, near the end of which it builds itself a nest of twigs that then ignites; both nest and bird burn fiercely and are reduced to ashes, from which a new, young phoenix or phoenix egg arises, reborn anew to live again. The new phoenix is destined to live as long as its old self. In some stories, the new phoenix embalms the ashes of its old self in an egg made of myrrh and deposits it in the Egyptian city of Heliopolis (literally "sun-city" in Greek). It is said that the bird's cry is that of a beautiful song. In very few stories they are able to change into people.

The Roman poet Ovid wrote the following about the phoenix:

Most beings spring from other individuals; but there is a certain kind which reproduces itself. The Assyrians call it the Phoenix. It does not live on fruit or flowers, but on frankincense and odoriferous gums. When it has lived five hundred years, it builds itself a nest in the branches of an oak, or on the top of a palm tree. In this it collects cinnamon, and spikenard, and myrrh, and of these materials builds a pile on which it deposits itself, and dying, breathes out its last breath amidst odors. From the body of the parent bird, a young Phoenix issues forth, destined to live as long a life as its predecessor. When this has grown up and gained sufficient strength, it lifts its nest from the tree (its own cradle and its parent's sepulchre), and carries it to the city of Heliopolis in Egypt, and deposits it in the temple of the Sun.[1]

French author Voltaire thus described the phoenix:

It was of the size of an eagle, but its eyes were as mild and tender as those of the eagle are fierce and threatening. Its beak was the color of a rose, and seemed to resemble, in some measure, the beautiful mouth of Formosante. Its neck resembled all the colors of the rainbow, but more brilliant and lively. A thousand shades of gold glistened on its plumage. Its feet seemed a mixture of purple and silver; and the tail of those beautiful birds which were afterwards fixed to the car of Juno, did not come near the beauty of its tail.[2]







Description
There are many, many descriptions of this legendary bird. Al-Jili considers the phoenix a prime example of unseen things (such as God), which can only be understood through their names and attributes.

Some describe the phoenix as an eagle-sized bird; half eagle and half pheasant. Others say it is heron-like or a conglomeration of the most beautiful parts of all the birds in the world.

Its name comes from the Greek word for "purple" because the phoenix is associated with fire and the sun. It has been described as golden or multicolored. Some say it never eats. Others say it eats only dew. Most believe there is only one of its kind and it lives alone in Arabia or Ethiopia. All agree it is a bird of great beauty.



Powers
The Phoenix enjoys immortality, which had to be renewed with fire every 300 to 500 years. When the end of its life cycle drew near, the phoenix would gather aromatic herbs, woods, and spices from around the world with which to build its own funeral pyre or nest.

Sitting in the nest, and having turned to face the rays of the sun, beating its wings, it deliberately fans the flames for itself and is consumed in the fire. Once the old body was consumed, the phoenix would be reborn from a worm, its marrow, or an egg found among the ashes and would embark on another 500 years of life.

According to some legends, the renewed phoenix carried its old bones to the City of the Sun in Egypt where they were disposed of with special funeral rites.



Symbol
Wherever it is found, the phoenix is associated with resurrection, immortality, triumph over adversity, and that which rises out of the ashes. Thus it became a favorite symbol on early Christian tombstones.

In chapters 25-26 of his letter to the Corinthians, St. Clement, Bishop of Rome, upheld the legendary phoenix as an evidence of Christ's ability to accomplish the resurrection of the faithful. He quotes Job as saying, "Thou shalt raise up this flesh of mine, which has suffered all these things."

In numerous ways, the phoenix was found to be a symbol of Christ. In most countries, it was believed that only one phoenix lived at a time. It was born from itself without following the natural laws of reproduction. During the Middle Ages, it was believed to rise from the dead after three days.

Often, as an emblem of Christ, it was found with the palm tree (another symbol of resurrection) or carrying a palm branch (a symbol of triumph over death), or carrying an olive branch (a symbol of God's peace offered to humans).

The Phoenix is symbolic of rebirth, hope, purity, chastity, marriage, faith, constancy, summer, eternity, immortality, and light.

It is an image of the cosmic fire some believe the world began and will end in. The Taoists called it the "cinnabar bird." Romans placed the phoenix on coins and medals as an emblem of their desire for the Roman Empire to last forever.


The research continues...

 

[elle]

Hi Troy...
Great observation on wings! I guess it comes down to how the artist imagined it.
Maybe this article can shed light...
http://dragon_azure.tripod.com/UoA/AnimalBlazonry.html

“rising:
wings are open, as if the bird is taking off. There are a variety of postures and wing positions associated with rising. In some cases the bird is seen from the side. In other cases it is seen from the front. The phoenix is always blazoned as rising and always seems to be displayed affronty. The head could be up or down.”

“vulning:
any animal wounding itself"

“in her piety:
reserved for pelicans, the pelican is shown beak to breast with blood dropping to pelican chicks.”

 

[elle]

Here is some more information if it helps.

In A Synopsis Of Heraldy: Or A Short & Easy Method of Acquiring The Art Of Blazon, by Charles Norton Elvin, 1866,
London, p. 82,

I read that a pelican cannot be called a "pelican in piety" unless she is depicted in her nest with young ones.
Otherwise, she is just a "pelican vulning," along with other species of birds known for vulning.

Another bird known for vulning is explained from this next piece of literature.

In The Academy: A Weekly Review Of Literature, Science, And Art, Issue 25, January-June, 1884, London, p. 97,

"Horapollo says that a vulture symbolises a compassionate person, because during the 120 days of its nurture
of its offspring, if food cannot be had, it opens its own thigh and permits the young ones to partake of the blood,
so that they may not perish from want."

Who is to say that a mythological creature of legend such as the phoenix, created first of all to be an image of Christ resurrecting, cannot also partake in vulning? Afterall, Jesus shed His blood for us before rising.

I am humble and admit I also make many errors in life. But in my opinion, I truly believe Bonnie's bird was made
by an artist whose only objective was to make an image that represented Jesus Christ. Whether the breast of Bonnie's
bird holds a scar wound from vulning or a Sacred Heart, it shouldn't be something we need to ponder about over and
over.
Overall, the eyes of the faithful would know it stood for Our Lord and His great sacrifice. Understanding that
concept would allow the artifact to be used for several events.
As I said before, I truly believe this held Holy Oil. The concept of a vial of oil within "a bird," has been a tradition
throughout history. By accepting that the bird was created to be Christ, Holy Oils could then be used with the relic
for several religious ceremonies, such as Baptism or the Annointing of the Sick. The altar boy would hold
the beautiful piece by its chains as the priest reached in for the Blessed Oil.

To see God's beauty today, I recommend everyone should get on a bicycle after work and look at all the beautiful
fall colors!