🔎 UNIDENTIFIED Gold cross with emeralds

[oc plumber]

Trying this in another forum hopefully is better suited here
Hi everyone ,first post here.
Trying to help out my father in law, he has a gold cross with emeralds in it he believes came from a Spanish shipwreck or possibly a sunk nazi u boat , I did some research and read about the atocha that Mel fisher discovered and the piece seems to very similar. It does not seem to have any id marks and comes with no paper work but my fil swears he has seen it before in a show talking about treasure linked to some sunken nazi uboat in Florida keys. Any ways was hoping somebody could shed some light/info or at least point us in the right direction. Thank you

 

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[unclemac]

so do want them to be of Columbian origin?

 

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[ARC]

There are two main methods used to determine the origin of an emerald, the same as with most other gems. One is Raman spectroscopy, which any professional lab uses.

But... this will not tell about the piece itself.
stones are re-set all the time... so the piece as a whole will have to be looked at.

 

[ARC]

so do want them to be of Columbian origin?

Columbia is the main producer of high quality emeralds... so yes this would be a good thing.
but not the only place high quality emeralds are from.
Beings this is Spanish in origin... Brazil could be the source as well.

 

[CRUSADER]

This has a good chance of being something special & valuable. IMO My first thought is it looks over 200 years old.

 

[oc plumber]

Find some small piece of cotton t shirt or old jewelry bag / box... and be careful with it... try not to hand to a "fumble finger" person or drop yourself.
Take care of it... until you know what you are holding.
Regardless it is a great piece.. and it MIGHT... repeat MIGHT.... be something of antiquity.
So... you are the keeper of it.

Oh yeah.... as far as it being a "shipwreck" piece... um... you will never be able to say yes or no to this without provenance.
BUT... with some more research and the above mentioned you might be able to narrow a timeline... and possibly be holding something of not only great beauty... but of great antiquity as well.

Remember this as well.... they do and have copied authentic antiquity pieces for eons.
So dont get your hopes up just yet... get that test done first.

Jeweler said it’s 22k gold

 

[unclemac]

what is its origin in the family? did i miss that?

 

[ARC]

Jeweler said it’s 22k gold

They didnt scratch test it i hope... beings you only posted the karat.

The 22k is perfectly what you wanted... but what you need is the rest of the content.

 

[oc plumber]

They didnt scratch test it i hope... beings you only posted the karat.

The 22k is perfectly what you wanted... but what you need is the rest of the content.

I’m going to find an xrf machine at a auction house next, wife found one in Beverly Hills , jeweler said stone test would ruin it not to do , he said it was very unique and rare and he couldn’t value it himself because he was not an expert in those types of jewelry but said the emeralds looked Colombian , not sure how he came up with the 22k but my wife has some paper work I’ll share later today

 

[ARC]

I’m going to find an xrf machine at a auction house next, wife found one in Beverly Hills , jeweler said stone test would ruin it not to do , he said it was very unique and rare and he couldn’t value it himself because he was not an expert in those types of jewelry but said the emeralds looked Colombian , not sure how he came up with the 22k but my wife has some paper work I’ll share later today

A good xrf costs around 16k. heh... so... um... might wanna just go somewhere that has one already.
I told you where to go and what to do.

 

[oc plumber]

A good xrf costs around 16k. heh... so... um... might wanna just go somewhere that has one already.
I told you where to go and what to do.

I meant I was gonna take it to an auction house and use theirs , not buy one but I reread your post and now will be looking for a larger gold bullion buying place to have them test it

 

[ARC]

I meant I was gonna take it to an auction house and use theirs , not buy one but I reread your post and now will be looking for a larger gold bullion buying place to have them test it

Anywhere that has one will do... it will have readout on screen... just take notes of this.
You need the other metal content amounts to help you on this journey.
I also thought on first glance the emeralds were Columbian... but i am looking at it via pictures.. which can be deceiving... particularly with stones such as these.
Congrats on the 22k... this is definitely a start in the right antiquity direction... but again ... not conclusive... but yes... looking better.

 

[ARC]

Anywhere that has one will do... it will have readout on screen... just take notes of this.
You need the other metal content amounts to help you on this journey.
I also thought on first glance the emeralds were Columbian... but i am looking at it via pictures.. which can be deceiving... particularly with stones such as these.
Congrats on the 22k... this is definitely a start in the right antiquity direction... but again ... not conclusive... but yes... looking better.

In fact you may / will find the gold karat will be off of 22... it will not be exact... it may say 22.3 % or 21.5 or... so on... this actually helps in the ID... so make sure you also log this.

 

[ARC]

I will add some more food for thought that may not be that good...
Even after this... you have about a 50% chance of getting to the whole story of this piece.

Unless it can be positively id'd through this sort of forensic analysis of the metals and tied to a certain area of production and also time frame... which is doable... but may take some real research and time.
I have some interest in this solve so i will lend some research and time to this if you get that content.

For example.......
The analysis of gold coins (from a 1715 shipwreck) minted in Bogota showed detectable levels of the metal iridium (>0.002%) whereas gold coins from other mints did not. The presence of detectable iridium, therefore, might serve as a diagnostic indicator of early 18th century gold of Colombian origin.

 

[Emil W]

I just saw that there's two different threads on this subject. I had replied in the other thread, so now I've copied my opinion to this thread...

I agree, style and construction point to it being an early piece, but I have one concern--the quality of the emeralds are not what would have been considered 'gem' quality back 300-400 years ago (unless it's just the photos that make the stones appear inferior).

It would be highly unusual for a maker back then to put so much effort into making this piece with stones that would have been typically rejected as 'not good enough' to use in a piece of fine jewelry. This may suggest it's a later copy. I admit I could be wrong.

I believe you need an analysis of the gold to see if it's comparable with period pieces.

 

[ARC]

Then there are the emeralds... heh
In the case of the Atocha... they were studied in great detail...
IF interested this is an article on it from the GIA...

https://www.gia.edu/doc/Emerald-and-Gold-Treasures-of-the-Spanish-Galleon-Nuestra-Senora-de-Atocha.pdf

 

[ARC]

Also.... the metal content will show if it is a piece that was designed to deceive...

For example... a gold cross like this of modern origin would be worth only a fraction of what a real one is.... hence the initiative of the unscrupulous to make antique looking pieces to deceive.
Just like they do with everything from makeup to Rolexes.

Even in the case of gold from Atocha... there were those who made fake crap to sell and deceive in the name of big buck rip offs.

In that case.... suspect coins contained 93% gold and 4% silver. While the authentic gold coins from the shipwreck contained 90-93 percent gold with a relatively high silver content of 6-9 percent. The gold was real but the coins were not from the Atocha, or any other shipwreck. The coins, which were sold for around $6000, were worth only a fraction of the selling price – around $270 at that time gold prices.

 

[ARC]

what is its origin in the family? did i miss that?

Yes... i agree... what is the entire story behind how it came to be ?
In other words how did your father in law come across it ?
Was he in the service or ?
Did he spend time in other places ? etc... just grasping here really.

 

[ARC]

I just saw that there's two different threads on this subject. I had replied in the other thread, so now I've copied my opinion to this thread...

I agree, style and construction point to it being an early piece, but I have one concern--the quality of the emeralds are not what would have been considered 'gem' quality back 300-400 years ago (unless it's just the photos that make the stones appear inferior).

It would be highly unusual for a maker back then to put so much effort into making this piece with stones that would have been typically rejected as 'not good enough' to use in a piece of fine jewelry. This may suggest it's a later copy. I admit I could be wrong.

I believe you need an analysis of the gold to see if it's comparable with period pieces.

Welllll different mines produced different emeralds as well all kknow... AND... there is the factor of "cost"... we all know you can go buy a stone that is cheaper than another.
This applied then as it still does today.

The stones look a bit "off" yes... but i have also seen this is period pieces.... period being "ancient". heh

This cross may very well be a "Mission Cross"... worn by a priest or the likes.
OR yes... these stones could be indicative of a modern copy of an antique style.

Here is a ring with muzo's... from the Atocha... likely a passengers ring.. note the stones.

 

[ARC]

RTR... i am having a hard time finding a screwed in Laca (Spanish term/word for the top bow piece) like the one here.
I have seen screw in pieces in stuff in pictures long ago i am pretty sure... mostly Medieval era / period stuff... not in Spanish i admit... but seen it otherwise.
This is weird i also admit and no... definitely not the norm.. BUT makes it IMO more likely to be of period... but yet too could be the cherry on the ruse to fool as well.

 

[Blak bart]

The stones are dark for muzo emeralds.....they do show a wear pattern on the facet lines, as if it were worn by shifting sand. Not a trace of coral which dosent mean much really. Perhaps the lighting is a bit low, and makes the stones appear darker. Natural sunlight on muzo material makes it almost glow. The gold color looks brassy for 22k, but again the lighting is probably the culprit for this appearance. I once herd a story here it is.

Apparently there was once a certain diver who worked for mel....I know the first name but will hold it back....this diver made an incredible discovery one day in the 90s I believe. He found a cross like the one in discussions here. He quickly went pirate and put the piece under a rock and said nothing. Later he returned that night in an 18 foot boat, and recovered the cross. It was never known that this cross was pilfered by the diver, and I was told the diver never sold the cross for fear of being caught. Never herd what happened to that cross !! Im not saying that's the cross, just 2 cross discovery stories I've ever herd and that's one of them. The other was found by a recreational diver in the ft. Pierce inlet. Both were gold with emeralds. Who knows maybe this is the real deal.....if so it is valuable for sure.