Dutchman's Caches

[Idahodutch]

It was a hot one here today, but at least it feels nice out right now

This thread was started because I wanted to share my search for the LDM.
During the process, there have been lots of good discussions, here and other threads.
I have learned a lot, and have rethought some of the tentacles of the legend, but for me, what has surprised me is that I would have the opportunity to make it back into the area I think is where the LDM is located. A couple more bits of the puzzle that had been holding things up for many years, appears to have maybe been located.

Further investigation on site is required in hopes of finding out if this is actually the place, or not.
We want to make it back again for a longer trip this time. Hopefully it works out for sometime later this year, or early next year.

It has been a privilege to share my search with Dutch hunters, as well as be on the receiving end of some sharing from some serious researchers and hunters.
I am not done searching yet, just saying it has been interesting, and most times .... fun

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

So we made it into the site earlier this year.
How to verify the site, located with the wilderness area, presents some challenges.
The clues line up for this spot as one would expect if it is the spot …. but the way the clues have gotten applied, by so many different DHs, they don’t really mean so much anymore…. it seems.
It used to be, (it seemed to me anyway) If you actually had stuff matching up, it was a huge deal. The matching up of the clues should still be a prerequisite imo, for a site to even be considered the LDM.
Many hunters now days, seem to promote dismissal of some and/or many clues….. or even just what was Waltz’s meanings behind them . . I personally believe Waltz was trying to give directions.
The mine was covered over by Waltz….. and no digging allowed.
I located what I believe to be the LDM, first with the clues from Holmes and Julia, then last year, I was stuck. I was standing right on top of the mine, and no legal way to verify the presence of gold.
Back in 2009, i verified the presence of gold through most of Needle Canyon. We need better verification, so ……
Ground radar technologies have continued to advance, and there is one that just became available in 2022..
It’s made in Germany, an apparently, I was the first one from all of North America to get one.
The way this device primarily works for locating minerals, is through ionic field detections.
The object/target emits an ionic field. The longer the target lies undisturbed the better the ionic field.
Larger deposits that have been undisturbed, emitted stronger ionic fields.
There is a very large gold deposit, approximately 190’ directly across the canyon, from a shallow cave, that I believe was Waltz’s hidden camp.
This camp is directly below the high point of the low ridge, that the saddle ties into… and where the view of 4-Peaks as one peak is seen.
Had it not been for something Matthew Roberts said in a forum post, I would not have fully understood the clue for locating the camp.

Is this the spot of the elusive LDM
I no longer have any doubt, but I’m sure many of you may not believe unless the mine is uncovered and opened up.

I will say this much, it is buried under ~ 10’ to 12’ of rocks and boulders.
The pile of rock is on a very steep slope. The pile is about 40’ diameter.
Dislodging the rocks almost immediately start rock slides.
After several hours of attempting to get down to the cache atop the mine, and only briefly reaching a depth of about 5’ or 6’ deep, before more slides got very real… the rock over the mine is almost all loose rock of various sizes. Most of which could crunch or break bones …

We carefully went back over everything, and there is no doubt of the gold below.
We did not pick up anything from the shaft mine above, as I don’t think we could get far enough away from the LDM outcrop mine to get a reading on the shaft mine (the Peralta mine with the white quartz ore).
The device has settings for what desired target it, and after getting back home, it dawned on me, that maybe if we were to set device to silver, perhaps the large outcrop gold deposit doesn’t have silver, but the Peralta gold ore does have silver in it
I don’t know.
Pretty hard when no digging is allowed.
I don’t know if my body will allow for another trip or not.
About the only possibility is if the Peralta shaft mine is not covered up.
And if the shaft is not filled up.
Then maybe some LDM ore could be retrieved without digging.

Thoughts ? Ideas ?

 

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[Blindbowman]

Waltz did in fact leave a map . few were smart enough to under stand where his map was left . . it shows the caches . its much easer to just use the map and go locate the caches ...lol wisdom stand tall over guessing and even the best man made gear has little chance when in the path of a brilliant mechanical genius ...some one ask me how do i see the things i see out there .. i replied . how can anyone else see what i see ? once my interest becomes locked on its target there is only one out come even at the risk of my own life . i have little ability to stop what makes me a boarder line Savant .in no way would i ever trust anything man made over my own skills & gifts . but we all seek with what god has given us .. did you know there is a way to mathematically prove the real LDM location ..? there is no guessing for the wise ..

 

[Idahodutch]

Waltz did in fact leave a map . few were smart enough to under stand where his map was left . . it shows the caches . its much easer to just use the map and go locate the caches ...lol wisdom stand tall over guessing and even the best man made gear has little chance when in the path of a brilliant mechanical genius ...some one ask me how do i see the things i see out there .. i replied . how can anyone else see what i see ? once my interest becomes locked on its target there is only one out come even at the risk of my own life . i have little ability to stop what makes me a boarder line Savant .in no way would i ever trust anything man made over my own skills & gifts . but we all seek with what god has given us .. did you know there is a way to mathematically prove the real LDM location ..? there is no guessing for the wise ..

Hello BB,
Sorry to inform you, but this site matches up, and indeed has the gold.

If you do your research, you would know the only cache left, is the one on top of the outcrop mine. 😵‍💫
“You can’t find one without finding the other” (Jacob Waltz)

Because of all the stigma over the Waltz map, I have mostly left it out of the clues discussions, but the waltz map is a plot map, and does show orientation and general locations of everything. Including surrounding terrain, the hidden camp, the cache locations, and both mine locations.
It was the map, that put me onto the location of the hidden camp, and then confirmation of the location of the outcrop mine …. It is shown on the map, and was confirmed in the field.
The hidden camp is a tough one, if not for something Matthew Roberts said, it may never have clicked for me.

You may believe differently, it is your choice... 🤓
So, good luck …. I hope you find what you seek.

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

If anybody has thoughts or ideas, I’d love to hear them.
I’ve tried to really think of ways to verify this site… I’m not seeing many options, beyond seeing if the shaft mine is accessible….. requires the clearing of much brush, just to see if it is covered over; (earthquakes, Apache ….)
So would need the location of the shaft entrance ….. this device also can see underground cavities. I have not experimented in that mode, but something maybe to think about.
If the shaft is not filled, it may be possible to have a good reading on it, and know what kind of brush would need to cleared for access.

Many of us would like to have absolute confirmation, and there are limitations due to SWA. (Superstitions Wilderness Area).
I’m not even sure if clearing a little brush is allowed ?

 

[Blindbowman]

Waltz mine is not a out cropping and never was , it is a vane ! no doubt what so ever it is a vane ..how much do i really know ,when the volcanic blow out took place more then a thousand years back in the time of the village of Cibola, ,the blow out was forced along a fault line ,that fault line runs threw the first two caves of the seven caves and then surfaces 35 feet away to about 18 feet deep below the ground leave ..Waltz mine is 35 feet away from the seven caves . that's why i have not made the mine public ...two of the 3 cache are still there .i hope you find what you seek i already did ...

 

[Idahodutch]

Waltz mine is not a out cropping and never was , it is a vane ! no doubt what so ever it is a vane ..how much do i really know ,when the volcanic blow out took place more then a thousand years back in the time of the village of Cibola, ,the blow out was forced along a fault line ,that fault line runs threw the first two caves of the seven caves and then surfaces 35 feet away to about 18 feet deep below the ground leave ..Waltz mine is 35 feet away from the seven caves . that's why i have not made the mine public ...two of the 3 cache are still there .i hope you find what you seek i already did ...

BB,
Unbacked declarations don’t mean much.
You mock those who follow clues attributed to Waltz.
Is this really who you want to be?
The guy in the peanut gallery?

 

[Blindbowman]

Lol you really think i would share the location with a web site, you lost touch with reality ..you didn't under stand what i said . the shaman stone was made from the same vane that runs threw the two caves, i have a 100% match and i mapped out where that vane goes and it runs right threw the LDM ,there is no way to fact math . it works or it don't ..a lot of old timers will tell you the same thing . they can define where a vane is going and where its source comes from ..tracing a vane is a real art ...out cropping's are most often cluster deposits ... rock hounding hunt deposits , miners hunt vanes ...after all the crap i have put up with all these years few people have the gust to go to this mine its not easy and its out right dangerous ,but the mine is just a way to a big can of worms ...fight the government for the rest of my life i don't think so .. i will locate the caches and vanish like the wind ...let the Apache keep the mountain .. i really don't care

 

[Idahodutch]

Lol you really think i would share the location with a web site, you lost touch with reality ..you didn't under stand what i said . the shaman stone was made from the same vane that runs threw the two caves, i have a 100% match and i mapped out where that vane goes and it runs right threw the LDM ,there is no way to fact math . it works or it don't ..a lot of old timers will tell you the same thing . they can define where a vane is going and where its source comes from ..tracing a vane is a real art ...out cropping's are most often cluster deposits ... rock hounding hunt deposits , miners hunt vanes ...after all the crap i have put up with all these years few people have the gust to go to this mine its not easy and its out right dangerous ,but the mine is just a way to a big can of worms ...fight the government for the rest of my life i don't think so .. i will locate the caches and vanish like the wind ...let the Apache keep the mountain .. i really don't care

Gosh BB,
This thread was started because I wanted to share my search. We’ve gone through clues, but you must not have caught that part.
You can always go back and catch up if you want, but the topic at this point, was ideas for retrieval of some Waltz ore, without digging. 😵‍💫

Please keep in mind there are 2 gold mines at the LDM site.
Different deposits …… and different ore. 🥸

(We weren’t talking about the site you describe.)
Good luck with your endeavors.👍

 

[Blindbowman]

well i have a better idea, you guys can play here on the site all you want .. i left the site for better things to do ,i don't stop in here very often and i have a lot going on in my real life .. so you win have your fun make your jokes ,think about what will happen if i am correct ...now there would be a real interesting out come ...

 

[Idahodutch]

well i have a better idea, you guys can play here on the site all you want .. i left the site for better things to do ,i don't stop in here very often and i have a lot going on in my real life .. so you win have your fun make your jokes ,think about what will happen if i am correct ...now there would be a real interesting out come ...

Much better after your edit. 👍
Two main sources Holmes, and Julia via Bick’s 1895 article. Julia has Waltz obtaining the shaft mine from Peralta, and also accounts of starting the 2nd mine down on an outcrop from Peralta/Waltz shaft mine. 2 mines, and also describes different ores. One Waltz buried over, the other he left open.

I don’t know your site, other than if this description doesn’t fit your site, it’s likely not the LDM.

For you to have been relieved when I said 2 mines, shows that you are not 100% ….. you have doubt …. Complete opposite as you put out.
(Edit: Sorry, I just realized you edited that out .😵‍💫 please disregard , it was not called for anyway)

If your site has what you say, sounds like a very good find …. to call it the LDM is a mistake in my opinion. I do hope you able to make it back out.

 

[Idahodutch]

sorry, that's not the case at all , Bick took what he was told by Julia, the fact or facts are the LDM mine is a 14-16 ft deep pit shaft . the tunnel across from it is a tunnel and the Hoya is a funnel shape mine that was being worked and was lost do to the massacre ,i know where all 3 of those sites are . and yes there is a placer digging related to those 3 mines and there is a number #5 mine that was only numbered ..and yes i have found and located all 5 of those sites . so sorry your wrong about the lay out of the mines relate to each other ...in fact i will go on record as backing up what clay worst stated by the camp fire yes , Waltz did in fact dump tailings over the ridge , because it's funny they are still there ...lol how do i know because there is only one way down off that ridge and at the bottom of the is a pile of tailings with the only gold ore in the area ..you bully me you can make fun and jokes but you will still be wrong when this is all over ...the 3 graves are near the camp ....hidden well but they are there the nephew's graves is about 60 yards from there .

Believe what you want, declare all you want, but without backup, it’s just talk.
But please, if you decide to continue with explaining how things are according to Blindbowman, maybe start a thread for just that topic.

If you have nothing to add to this thread …. which currently was ideas for retrieving some of Waltz’s LDM ore, without digging then that’s ok too.

I don’t appreciate you implying I’ve bullied you, you are way out of line on that one BB.

 

[Blindbowman]

what ever good luck ..

 

[Idahodutch]

I'll start by sharing some of my view about why the cashes appeal to me.
1) since it would take doing a treasure trove deal for the mine itself the caches seem doable if found.
2) most likely very little disruption to the wilderness to extract.
3) you could find one of the caches and probably no one would know.

Number 3 can also means that maybe they have been empty for a long time.
I think I had gotten comfortable with the odds of them, simply because it seemed to me that without a good map and the ruggedness of the terrain, well that is why it is still lost.

So here is my dilemma, what if it turns out that there is a map that if real, practically shows the spot and definitely shows the ravine.

I liked the odds way better before I realized that there is a map to the super secret ravine that I think could really be it.

Now I'm thinking who made this map, where, when did it surface. Then I think about this most likely means. If it is the spot, then the mine would still be there, but the caches were probably taken by whoever made the map. The caches were enough and made a map so he could watch the show.

So, my back is bad and that ravine is one steep sob.
I wasn't interested in scouring the ravine without finding flour gold at least,from the stream in the canyon below.
I can confirm that this is so. I smelted the samples myself.

If someone finds it because of this post, 1 chunk of the LDM ore would be great.
The waltz map is showing Needle canyon, just north of Bull pass. (Tried to attach but all thumbs here - maybe someone will reply with map).
If you don't believe this map is showing that area then you need to look closer. Once you see it, it is actually a pretty good job.

P.S. If some does do a treasure trove for the mine, I would to like have permission to come watch.
Idaho Dutch

That post was almost 3 years ago.
I had been sitting on the ravine location for over 10 years, and stuck.
Was the hidden camp, like the rock man,
gone to the destructive power of time?

The “Waltz Map” is a plot map of Waltz’ ravine site. I was distraught upon realizing that that map, actually was showing the ravine I was interested in, and had been for quite some time.
My secret search location had been out for all to see, for who knows how long.

I was not able at the time, to decipher any more than the region it depicts.
I was also of the thinking, that I would never be able to go into those mountains again. So I decided to share my search, and maybe somebody would be able to finish figuring out the map.

To my surprise, there really did not seem to be much interest.
Times had changed I guess.
Even now, I really don’t think many Dutch Hunters could or would give a hoot about the Waltz Map.

After looking at that map, on and off, for well over a year, I started to notice things about it.
It was starting to make sense. It is not to scale, but definitely is a plot map.

It gives information about the mine Waltz buried with cache on top, plus other 2 cache locations, plus the Peralta inclined shaft above the mine Waltz buried.

It also showed something else….
What else should this map show?
It hit me, if the map is complete, it would HAVE to be ….. the hidden camp location.

I carefully scrutinized every foot in the area being depicted, and saw what looked like was what was left of the hidden camp.

What was I to do about it?
I shared my suspicions of the camp location on the forums here.
In the process of sharing what I was seeing, the clue from Holmes Manuscript for locating the hidden camp, all of a sudden lit up.
Against doctors advice, and family pressure, I made the drive from Idaho to Arizona, and hiked into the ravine to look and see up close ….

After careful examination, I was sort of beside myself….. this is actually what’s left of the Hidden Camp ….

That was all that was needed to pinpoint the buried mine. I went directly across the canyon over to the buried mine, and spent much time again, carefully examining …. taking it all in.
Wondering 😵‍💫 ….. why me?

I don’t have an answer for that question.
Idahodutch

 

[Blindbowman]

sounds good but the mine is not across from the camp, in fact it is a 1/4 mile away ..you wont find ether of the caches ,, you can try .. good luck ..

 

[Idahodutch]

sounds good but the mine is not across from the camp, in fact it is a 1/4 mile away ..you wont find ether of the caches ,, you can try .. good luck ..

Dream on 😂😂😂🤣

 

[Blindbowman]

i hope you find what you are looking for .. i did

 

[Idahodutch]

sounds good but the mine is not across from the camp, in fact it is a 1/4 mile away ..you wont find ether of the caches ,, you can try .. good luck ..

There is only one cache left, it’s right on top of the mine ….. exactly like Bicknell’s 1895 article.

This also begs the question about who made the Waltz map.
After much thought, I have to change my stance and agree with Markmar, that Waltz must have originally made it.
It shows all 3 caches, but only the top of mine is left.
We checked 👍🫤.

The only person to know the locations of all 3 caches to make the map (since Waltz already retrieved 2 of them) would be Waltz himself.

 

[Idahodutch]

Bb, I thought you already congratulated me on this ….. did you change your mind, or are you just making noise for fun?

 

[Idahodutch]

There is only one cache left, it’s right on top of the mine ….. exactly like Bicknell’s 1895 article.

This also begs the question about who made the Waltz map.
After much thought, I have to change my stance and agree with Markmar, that Waltz must have originally made it.
It shows all 3 caches, but only the top of mine is left.
We checked 👍🫤.

The only person to know the locations of all 3 caches to make the map (since Waltz already retrieved 2 of them) would be Waltz himself.

We’re thinking on maybe this November for one more trip in there.
We’re thinking we can scan up in the corner with the Gold Legend, but have the settings set to Silver, and depth to 40 meters … but just go out shortest distance, which is the 50 meter setting.

I’m hoping since the gold ore in the Peralta inclined shaft above also contains silver, that maybe we will be able to map out what left of that deposit also.

Here was a pic from our base camp in Boulder canyon earlier this year.

This next pic, was taken from the creek in Needle canyon, looking into the ravine.
My son is busy scanning, …. the big boulder with our stuff by it, made a great rest area 👍

 

[Idahodutch]

The Gold Legend, is an underground radar device, as well as long range detection. Was set to launch at beginning of 2022, but I was able to order it in November of 2021.
Technology keeps getting better.
With technology like this, it really was only a matter of time, before someone found it.