Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

[Hal Croves]

johnmark29029
I went to bed last night hoping that someone here would take up my challenge (explaining the Dutchman's name change) but this morning there is nothing. And that silence should speak volumes considering the number of seasoned hunters who demonstrate their knowledge base here on t-net. The men who buried the Dutchman knew his true identity and the correct spelling of his name, but have a look at his headstone. Now, I read somewhere that the original headstone was stolen and replaced with the current one which might explain the error, but I doubt it. My point is that before any true research can be done (and you said that you are new to this) the correct name must be known. Otherwise you will find yourself chasing phantoms... which, by the way, may be intentional. An evolution in the "nickname" is understandable (Snow-beard, Dutch Jacob, the Dutchman, etc.) but why alter the actual surname? Even if the Dutchman called himself something other than his actual name, why would "historians" perpetuating the inaccuracy?

Start with the correct name and then do your research. One of the things that you will learn is that the Dutchman had influential relatives here in the states long before and after his arrival.

cactusjumper
Yes, plus a few more. Also, I am wondering why you have not offered an explanation for the Dutchman's name change? I think that everyone reading this would appreciate your insight.

wrmickel1
I don't know if it is entirely accurate to describe them as "chemical" symbols. "Alchemy" symbols might be a more correct description.

 

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[Azhiker]

Hal,

I am confused as to what you believe the dutchmans real name was ?
Would you detail for us please the name and why you believe it was changed and how that aids in the research of his past life ?

Speaking of names, I have always wanted to ask you, did you know B. Traven ?

Azhiker

 

[Hal Croves]

Azhiker,
Why are you confused? In post #644 I addressed this and provided a link to visuals explaining my concern. It's not just that I believe there was a change (I do)... there was. The name that is being perpetuated is incorrect, however I do think that it (or a version of it) was used by the Dutchman sometime after 1861. Anyone who has spent time researching the life of the Dutchman would eventually come to this conclusion. Again, without the Dutchman's correct identity, how can one properly research the mans life?

B. Traven was a S.O.B and still owes me money for a week we spent one night in Mexico city!

 

[johnmark29020]

johnmark29029
I went to bed last night hoping that someone here would take up my challenge (explaining the Dutchman's name change) but this morning there is nothing. And that silence should speak volumes considering the number of seasoned hunters who demonstrate their knowledge base here on t-net. The men who buried the Dutchman knew his true identity and the correct spelling of his name, but have a look at his headstone. Now, I read somewhere that the original headstone was stolen and replaced with the current one which might explain the error, but I doubt it. My point is that before any true research can be done (and you said that you are new to this) the correct name must be known. Otherwise you will find yourself chasing phantoms... which, by the way, may be intentional. An evolution in the "nickname" is understandable (Snow-beard, Dutch Jacob, the Dutchman, etc.) but why alter the actual surname? Even if the Dutchman called himself something other than his actual name, why would "historians" perpetuating the inaccuracy?

Start with the correct name and then do your research. One of the things that you will learn is that the Dutchman had influential relatives here in the states long before and after his arrival.

cactusjumper
Yes, plus a few more. Also, I am wondering why you have not offered an explanation for the Dutchman's name change? I think that everyone reading this would appreciate your insight.

wrmickel1
I don't know if it is entirely accurate to describe them as "chemical" symbols. "Alchemy" symbols might be a more correct description.

I tried to look at your post,but i couldnt get the pics to pull uup.
I would love to know his real name.
There have been so many people putting misleading facts out there and so many people confussing facts. Like in the case of mr reed and adolf ruth.

 

[johnmark29020]

So i will take all of the advice,info i can get.

 

[Cubfan64]

Hal - I'll take a guess. His real name was Walzer - as far as why he may have changed it, two general reasons come to mind as to why someone would change their last name: 1) To escape something (debt, persecution, recognition, etc...) or 2) To gain something.

I realize those are very vague/general reasons, but I'm not aware of any specifics.

 

[Azhiker]

Hal,

Found the name Jacob Von Waltzer. I assume that is the original name you refer to. 34 pages of posts and 18 links is a daunting task to try and catch up and get up to speed for a newcomer.

You asked about an explanation for the dutchmans name change.

Could it be that like Ret Marut of Berlin Germany, he simply wanted to put his past behind him and start anew in a new and promising land, far away from the homeland that had not been very kind to him ? To start fresh with a new name , in a new place like Tamaulipas Mexico ? I'm sorry about your ruckus with Mr. Traven. Danny Houston once told me his father had a similar encounter with the man.

Azhiker

 

[Hal Croves]

johnmark29029,
Yes, I am six months into researching the Dutchman myself and there are plenty of dead ends to follow. TNET is the right place to begin your search as there are obviously more than a few brilliant minds posting. But history, even historical fact is open to interpretation. Making your way through personalities and half truths is the difficult part here. Yes, Cubfan64's guess is correct, but he is not guessing. He (like most of the experienced Dutchman researchers) knows the correct name. Use that name to begin your search and keep in mind the change and when it took place.

Cubfan64,
Yes, I think that you hit it on the head as you often do. The specifics... that is the holy grail. Did you ever wonder why the Dutchman came to Arizona? Other than the obvious? I mean no one just picks up and heads into the wilderness without some knowledge to his advantage. The Dutchman was no different nor were his contemporaries.

Azhiker,
Ret was a dissident running from prosecution. I don't think that this is the case where the Dutchman is concerned... unless his transgression occurred after his arrival in the United States, which is a very real possibility. I am smiling. Also, did Mr. Houston's story involve a transvestite, a little person and a trained burro? Coincidences.

BTW - That is a great photograph in your member picture.

 

[somehiker]

Hal - I'll take a guess. His real name was Walzer - as far as why he may have changed it, two general reasons come to mind as to why someone would change their last name: 1) To escape something (debt, persecution, recognition, etc...) or 2) To gain something.

I realize those are very vague/general reasons, but I'm not aware of any specifics.

Paul:

Not vague in the least for your #1 reason.
If Waltz had in fact killed the Mexican peons, having discovered them working the mine, such a name change or even a change in spelling/pronunciation may have been what he felt was necessary to protect him from any relatives seeking revenge. His move from Florence to Phoenix, both within a couple of days travel time to the mine, may have been for the same reason. At least one of the versions of his history has Waltz in close contact with the Peralta family in Mexico, with his having originally having worked the mine as a partner to the Peraltas. If true, they likely would have come looking for the Jacob Von Waltzer whom they had known, only to be told no-one by the name "Von Walzer" was registered as living in Phoenix.
Later on, "Old Snow" or "Dutch Waltz" or "The Dutchman" may have been how he prefered to be recognized.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul:

Not vague in the least for your #1 reason.
If Waltz had in fact killed the Mexican peons, having discovered them working the mine, such a name change or even a change in spelling/pronunciation may have been what he felt was necessary to protect him from any relatives seeking revenge. His move from Florence to Phoenix, both within a couple of days travel time to the mine, may have been for the same reason. At least one of the versions of his history has Waltz in close contact with the Peralta family in Mexico, with his having originally having worked the mine as a partner to the Peraltas. If true, they likely would have come looking for the Jacob Von Waltzer whom they had known, only to be told no-one by the name "Von Walzer" was registered as living in Phoenix.
Later on, "Old Snow" or "Dutch Waltz" or "The Dutchman" may have been how he prefered to be recognized.

Regards:Wayne

True Wayne, but if we make the assumption that the paper trail we've seen going all the way back to his declaration to become a citizen in New Orleans is THE same Jacob Waltz involved in the LDM legends, and that the documents are legitimate, he had already changed his name to Waltz well prior to arriving in Arizona.

 

[wrmickel1]

Well, you have two of the meanings, but you left out God. Just being politically correct......I assume.

Joe

Joe;

Are you saying you believe the maps were made by the Jesuits or something.

Wrmickel1

 

[wrmickel1]

No I believe Alchemy was the name giving trying to change one metel to another. Like lead to Gold ect.

Wrmickel1

 

[wrmickel1]

Hal:

My great grand father come to the US in the 1800's and he had no choice in how to spell his name, You told them your name they wrote it down the english way and that was your new correct USA way to write your name. Take it or leave, thats the way they were treated back then.

Mikkelson became Mickelson :right then and there: So Waltz most likely got the name change then.

wrmickel1

 

[somehiker]

True Wayne, but if we make the assumption that the paper trail we've seen going all the way back to his declaration to become a citizen in New Orleans is THE same Jacob Waltz involved in the LDM legends, and that the documents are legitimate, he had already changed his name to Waltz well prior to arriving in Arizona.

Good point.....but was that record from the "Olbers Manifest" ?

 

[Cubfan64]

Good point.....but was that record from the "Olbers Manifest" ?

I may be mistaken Wayne, but I think the only "Olbers Manifest" information pertained just to Waltz being on the ship. The documentation about his filing for citizenship is a separate piece of paperwork. On the other hand, over the years of research related to Waltz and the LDM and the number of people who have had vested interests in looking for authentic documentation, I suppose it wouldn't ever be shocking to discover forgeries being planted in the stacks of paperwork.

After all, we know a James Reavis did exactly that - although of course he had a HUGE vested interest in planting forgeries.

Like I said earlier,

 

[Hal Croves]

somehiker, Cubfan64,
This is a topic that deserves its own thread and some degree of seriousness and I am hesitant to share more, here, simply because of the many "distractions" that have been posted. Some are just asinine. I would be willing to share some of what I have researched but no more on this thread. What I will leave you with is this. The Dutchman arrived in the United States years after the date proposed by H. Corbin. He use his correct name to travel to and enter the U.S. (coincidentally there was another man on that same ship with the name Jacob Waltz). He took and used an alias as early as 1864. I have a great deal of respect for Mrs. Corbin, however I can say with some degree of certainty that she was simply writing about the wrong man (in part). Start a new thread dedicated to the Dutchman's identity and I will contribute.

wrmickel1,
I would suggest that you spend some time studying the history of chemistry and its precursor alchemy. Please do not take this the wrong way as it is not intended to be an insult. You have made some bold claims on this thread leaving yourself prone to criticism and scrutiny, which is why you must have a solid understanding of what it is that you are writing about. If not, any claim that you make will almost certainly be treated with doubt. About your Grandfather... "emigration" name changes, like the example given in the movie "The Godfather" were typically the result of a language barrier and or overwhelmed officers. Not many people know this, but the Dutchman had someone to help him when he arrived. Someone celebrated and influential. I believe that at the end of the day it is safe to assume that it was laziness (frustration) and a heavy German accent that prompted the name change. Ich bin Deutsch, Ich bin aus Deutschland... not difficult to see how the Dutchman nickname came about. But there is always the chance that something torrid occurred between the time of his arrival in America and his entry into Arizona Territory.

This is not related but based on your member description you might like to read this article printed a few months before the Dutchman's passing.

View attachment 726355

 

[somehiker]

There was an interesting discussion about the Rio treasure three years ago in this thread as well.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends/153540-jesuit-treasures-they-real-30.html

From Post #589

The entire thread makes a good read for any who are interested in the debate over the existence of Jesuit Treasure.

Regards:SH.

 

[wrmickel1]

somehiker, Cubfan64,
This is a topic that deserves its own thread and some degree of seriousness and I am hesitant to share more, here, simply because of the many "distractions" that have been posted. Some are just asinine. I would be willing to share some of what I have researched but no more on this thread. What I will leave you with is this. The Dutchman arrived in the United States years after the date proposed by H. Corbin. He use his correct name to travel to and enter the U.S. (coincidentally there was another man on that same ship with the name Jacob Waltz). He took and used an alias as early as 1864. I have a great deal of respect for Mrs. Corbin, however I can say with some degree of certainty that she was simply writing about the wrong man (in part). Start a new thread dedicated to the Dutchman's identity and I will contribute.

wrmickel1,
I would suggest that you spend some time studying the history of chemistry and its precursor alchemy. Please do not take this the wrong way as it is not intended to be an insult. You have made some bold claims on this thread leaving yourself prone to criticism and scrutiny, which is why you must have a solid understanding of what it is that you are writing about. If not, any claim that you make will almost certainly be treated with doubt. About your Grandfather... "emigration" name changes, like the example given in the movie "The Godfather" were typically the result of a language barrier and or overwhelmed officers. Not many people know this, but the Dutchman had someone to help him when he arrived. Someone celebrated and influential. I believe that at the end of the day it is safe to assume that it was laziness (frustration) and a heavy German accent that prompted the name change. Ich bin Deutsch, Ich bin aus Deutschland... not difficult to see how the Dutchman nickname came about. But there is always the chance that something torrid occurred between the time of his arrival in America and his entry into Arizona Territory.

This is not related but based on your member description you might like to read this article printed a few months before the Dutchman's passing.

View attachment 726355

Hal

Wow! one hell of a payday for for the 1800's, Thats what I,m feeling Baby!Alchemy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I also included a link for Alchemy, It seems I was right,

Wrmickel1

 

[wrmickel1]

Hal;

If you check the the gold symbol its a circle with a dot inside. And the triangles, Water and Fire, like on the trail map goes right threw the smelters, then on to The Horse from Santa Fe :MINE: Been there, Been in this MINE: The 5 meanes silver so the mine is a Silver mine. The little dots around the five are 4 pit mines, But you can't see one from the other but there not very far apart.


Wrmickel1

 

[Hal Croves]

wrmickel1
Actually, no you were not correct. The definition of a "chemical" symbol (your exact term from post #659) from a source that you are familiar with. As I said, you need to know what it is that you are writing about.


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


A chemical symbol is a 1-, 2-, or 3-letter internationally agreed code for a chemical element, usually derived from the name of the element, often in Latin.

This is an of an atomic symbol. The text boxes explain where the numbers are derived from.​

Only the first letter is capitalised. For example, "He" is the symbol for helium (English name, not known in ancient Roman times), "Pb" for lead(plumbum in Latin), "W" for tungsten (wolfram in German, not known in Roman times). Temporary symbols assigned to newly or not-yet synthesized elements use 3-letter symbols based on their atomic numbers. For example, "Uno" was the temporary symbol for Hassium which had the temporary name of Unniloctium.
Chemical symbols may be modified by the use of prepended superscripts or subscripts to specify a particular isotope of an atom. Additionally, appended superscripts may be used to indicate the ionization or oxidation state of an element.
Attached subscripts or superscripts specifying a nucleotide or molecule have the following meanings and positions:

• The nucleon number (mass number) is shown in the left superscript position (e.g., [SUP]14[/SUP]N)
• The proton number (atomic number) may be indicated in the left subscript position (e.g., [SUB]64[/SUB]Gd)
• If necessary, a state of ionization or an excited state may be indicated in the right superscript position (e.g., state of ionization Ca[SUP]2+[/SUP]). In astronomy, non-ionised atomic hydrogen is often known as "HI", and ionised hydrogen as "HII".[SUP][1][/SUP]
• The number of atoms of an element in a molecule or chemical compound is shown in the right subscript position (e.g., N[SUB]2[/SUB] or Fe[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]3[/SUB])
• A radical is indicated by a dot on the right side (e.g., Cl· for a chloride radical)