Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

[somehiker]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

No caddo,but it's on the list.Likely something worthwhile thereabouts.
Would like to see if there is anything behind and above that stone wall.
I'll have to put a pic of the jaguar stone up soon.Kinda regal that pose.

Regards:SH.

 

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[Springfield]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Much of this saga reminds me of the classic shell game with an endless series of shills.
I wonder if this has anything to do with the apparent loss of team spirit.

http://drlmedia.com/kings.pdf ....

Thanks for the link - the dude will be answering all those nagging questions that plague us. Remember 'Ask Andy'?

 

[ipcress]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

at this link http://www.philipcoppens.com/sog_art5.html there is info about wolfram von eschenbach and the gail as a stone.

Still, one man, in the decades following Chrétien de Troyes’ account, took it upon himself to answer what the Grail was. Wolfram von Eschenbach is now known as the author of Parzival, the work that inspired Richard Wagner’s famous opera Parsifal, which in literary circles is often described as “the first extant work in German to have as its subject the Holy Grail”, as well as taking up a unique niche within the Grail literature, as it doesn’t fit in any of the categories the scholars have created. The reason for its unique position is that Wolfram, unlike many of his contemporaries, did not elaborate on Chrétien’s story, but expressed disdain for it, labelling it erroneous in many of its details, and stated that he would rectify these errors in Parzival. In short, Wolfram claimed the Grail was real, and he knew more about it. He claimed he knew because he had been in contact with a source, “Kyot”, from Provence, who was able to furnish him with “the truth”. Wolfram claimed that he was able to identify the real characters of the Grail story, as well as identify the true nature of the Grail: a magical stone.

We can compare Wolfram’s situation very much with the modern example of The Da Vinci Code. Upon the publication, and especially the success, of Dan Brown’s book, dozens of other novels appeared that treaded the same themes, some with more success than others. Brown’s book also saw a series of “guides”, that enhanced upon the organisations, places and people worked into the book, and debated their historical veracity, or not. Amazingly, this would lead to official statements from the Vatican, as well as a high-profile court case in which two non-fiction authors, Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh, co-authors of Holy Blood, Holy Grail, sued Brown’s publisher for copyright infringement.
A series of non-fictional works, specifically on the Grail and Mary Magdalene, also saw re-editions, often with new titles that included the keyword “code” in it, and some which even used the same font and cover design that had made The Da Vinci Code stand out in the bookstalls.

Imagine the task of Wolfram von Eschenbach, who amidst this frenzy is trying to argue that Chrétien got it wrong, but that he knows the truth. It is, of course, not an easy task and it does bear some resemblance to some claims made by authors today that they “knew” the truth about Dan Brown’s novel – one of whom then adopted the pen-name of Dan Green!

In retrospect, Wolfram failed miserably; he was unable to persuade Western Europe that he had definitively answered what the Grail was. Today, most scholars even doubt the veracity of his source Kyot, believing instead that Kyot was a literary device invented by Wolfram to explain his deviations from Chrétien’s storyline. Professor of history Joseph Goering, when discussing Wolfram, thus calls his work “the most elaborate and inventive retelling of Chrétien’s story”, to add later that the book illustrates “the fecundity of imagination” of Wolfram.

Nobody, it seems, believed Wolfram when he was claiming to speak the truth. Instead, he was held to be “just” another writer. Only centuries later, would he be saved from this doom, by being labelled “an oddity”, if only because he did not embrace the Christian setting that had become the standard frame of reference into which one spoke about the Grail – the Holy Grail.

Today, the Grail is largely seen as a literary invention, but this may be a serious mistake. For one, Wolfram on Eschenbach never wrote fiction; he was known for writing family histories – non-fiction. Noting that he stated that when addressing the Grail, he was correcting errors and was writing a factual account, there is an obvious blatant problem that is never addressed by any of the scholars: by all accounts, Wolfram was a non-fiction writer, who set out to write a non-fiction account about the Grail.

Furthermore, Wolfram is very specific, not only identifying his source as Kyot, but stating that Kyot based the origin of the Grail on two documents. Despite such information, the experts state they have been unable to identify who Kyot was (which is, of course, their problem, not Wolfram’s), and hence they have treated Kyot as a literary invention by Wolfram, or is mentioned, without any further explanation.

In short, Wolfram’s Grail story was his rendition of Kyot’s historical detective work. One of the documents on which the Grail story is based is a family history, which was the history of Perceval, the leader of the family who came to possess the Grail. The other document is a pagan document, thought to be absent from Christian medieval Europe, containing a pagan doctrine that required an initiation… hence, a brotherhood.

Hence, what the “Grail quest” set forth in this book has uncovered, is threefold. First, there is no reason to doubt that the Grail was indeed a magical stone. Second, that this stone was in the possession of the Aragon royal family that lived on the southern slopes of the Pyrenees – the general region where Rahn and Himmler explored. That this family had created a series of initiations and rites, linked with the worship of this object, and which we will refer to as the “Grail Brotherhood”. That the real Perceval, of French descent, was welcomed into this Brotherhood because of his family ties to the Aragon royal family. Third, that the Aragon royal family initiated a project, in which they hoped to transform Europe into a “Grail Kingdom”: unite it, and transform into a theocracy, in which the unifying power – object – would be the Grail itself. That their ambition failed (quite early on too), might have contributed to the problems Wolfram faced in convincing the people of Western Europe that he was nevertheless right. But right, it seems by all accounts, he was… and the Grail was – is – real.

Excerpted from the introduction of “Servants of the Grail”

 

[ipcress]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

this is from the apache junction gold canyon news.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

If anyone is interested, here is where the "Holy Stones" were recovered,
and where HS, Inc. dug:

Photos by Dave

Both are on State Trust Land.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Joe:
I've always admired Dave's photography.I still have his card and have often checked the photo website to ensure that he's still at it.
Hope he is well and would have liked to have seen him at the Rendezvous.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Nice to see that like all good treasure hunters they refilled their holes after they were done

No wonder "we" get such a bad reputation.

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

If anyone is interested, here is where the "Holy Stones" were recovered,
and where HS, Inc. dug:

Photos by Dave

Both are on State Trust Land.

Joe Ribaudo

joe there is something wrong with the photo you see it .. let me pointit out to you .. one there is no seeable pile of dirty from the whole and what we do see only has a few boot prints in it .. if you look close in the back ground going from left to right or right to left you see what looks like tire tracks maybe from a truck ...

now thing about what logic would that tell us about this whole and where the dirt went ..?

now look at where the whole is compaired to the back ground .. and the type of dirt in and around the whole it self .. same thing with the upper picture ,... IMHO these picture looked staged

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

BB,

The pile of dirt is probably BEHIND the photographer. If i may point something out to you, you will see that the hole is DEAPER on the farside, that means they started on the CLOSEST side to the photographer. In my opinion, having dug a few holes back on the farm.

How did you ever find the ma/toyota/Dutchman thinking that way?

DD

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

lol i dug a few whole for other people my self ...lol

 

[gollum]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

DE,

I have been away from this site for a while due to a nasty motorcycle accident, but have been perusing your posts today. I tend to do that when I find overly lengthy posts. Two things I noticed right off the bat:

1. You reference some story that mentions how the Jesuits were ripped off of some silver in 1780 (the Jesuits were not allowed to mine, and the entire Jesuit Order worldwide was dissolved in 1773, they were arrested and kicked out of all Spanish holdings in 1767).

2. Very long stories about Celeste Jones ending with her death in 1970. When I last spoke with Bob Corbin some few months ago, he told me that Celeste Jones had contacted him within the last fifteen or so years. He was quite friendly with Jones until she asked him and an associate to find her someone to kill Ed Piper. She also didn't find squat on Weaver's Needle. She claimed to have found an alabaster cross near the middle, but blew it up thinking a treasure cave was behind it. There wasn't. Her main source of income was selling small shares of the treasure she was sure she would find. Bob was fairly certain she had sold at least 5000% over the years he knew her. HAHAHA There were no gold crucifixes or other valuables. She also told Bob that she knew about a tunnel that went completely under the Superstitions.

If you are getting your facts from writers who don't know basic history, maybe you should see about getting some new sources.

Best-Mike

............. and one other thing:

Last time I was in AJ, I spent almost the whole day with Phil Reinhardt. Seems to be a really nice and very open guy. All my dealings with Greg Davis have also been fantastic.

While we may not be swapping spit in the shower friendly, I would easily give either of them the benefit of the doubt in any discussions of their characters.

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

gollum\\


i guess DE was banded ...

sorry to hear about your bike injury .. i have had that funny my self ..

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Gully ya dum ares, haven't you learned that in a butting contest, the car comes out first ever time? I am glad that you wern't driving my nice white Range Rover.

In any event ----------

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[ET]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Mr. Cactusjumper

Your friend Dave went to the correct location and got a picture of the Burns Well: good job. Your friend Dave went to the correct location and got a picture of Crawford's discovery spot: good job. Your friend Dave DID NOT go to the correct location of HSI's discovery spot, and DID NOT get a picture of it: try again.

Ipcress gave Dave (a post at this forum) the correct interpretation of the German Grail quest symbol. By following Ipcress' instructions (given at this forum), Dave will arrive at a spot between the rock out crop and the wash. Let me repeat this ... "between the rock out crop and the wash." Not in the wash, and not on the opposite side of the wash. Again ... "between the rock out crop and the wash."

Tell Dave to follow the instructions given by Ipcress (a post at this forum), and TAKE a metal detector with him. If he makes the correct measurements, he will discover something. Maybe you and Dave will share both picture (of the correct spot) and metal detector reading with everyone by posting them here. Maybe you will even give the correct conclusion one should draw from the metal detector reading. Or maybe not, after all, Dave twice now has taken pictures of the wrong spot concerning HSI's discovery spot.

Emory Taylor

 

[ET]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Unknown

I am not sure whom it is I am addressing, but someone at this forum was accusing Kristiana Neuttson (Dearingeagle) of writing a book. Whoever it was ... I personally believe you are correct. I believe she is writing a book. I would like her to produce some evidence, such as a document or photogrtaph or something, to prove I was in Germany. I can assure everyone she has no proof as I have never been to Germany to visit someone going by the name Bigdreamer.

I, myself, am in the middle of writing a book about Bob Ward, Chuck Crawford, and Rick Gwynne. As the official biographyer of Chuck Crawford, writing or editing books is what I do, and should be expected. My book, as opposed to Kristiana Neuttson's fantasy about secret Nazi connections and Himmler's grail quest ... my book is based on documents and constitutes TRUE history, not imaginary history. Ward, Crawford, and Gwynne have all made discoveries that are connected and which are connected to the Dutchman, a German named Jacob Waltz. I am nearly finished with the book. Let's all remember the Superstition Mountain Museum honers artists and writers with a special event at the museum, and sells books to raise money. A person is not bad just because they write a book. But a historical book should not be made up of fantasy. The three books of the Crawford biography are called "doc-u-books" for a reason: they are 100% document based: the documents are provided with each of the doc-u-books. Let's not forget the Superstition Mountain Museum spent some $10,000.00 plus dollars to a acquire the Crawford estate, meaning one is not bad just because one deals with Crawford.

Emory Taylor

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Unknown

I am not sure whom it is I am addressing, but someone at this forum was accusing Kristiana Neuttson (Dearingeagle) of writing a book. Whoever it was ... I personally believe you are correct. I believe she is writing a book. I would like her to produce some evidence, such as a document or photogrtaph or something, to prove I was in Germany. I can assure everyone she has no proof as I have never been to Germany to visit someone going by the name Bigdreamer.

I, myself, am in the middle of writing a book about Bob Ward, Chuck Crawford, and Rick Gwynne. As the official biographyer of Chuck Crawford, writing or editing books is what I do, and should be expected. My book, as opposed to Kristiana Neuttson's fantasy about secret Nazi connections and Himmler's grail quest ... my book is based on documents and constitutes TRUE history, not imaginary history. Ward, Crawford, and Gwynne have all made discoveries that are connected and which are connected to the Dutchman, a German named Jacob Waltz. I am nearly finished with the book. Let's all remember the Superstition Mountain Museum honers artists and writers with a special event at the museum, and sells books to raise money. A person is not bad just because they write a book. But a historical book should not be made up of fantasy. The three books of the Crawford biography are called "doc-u-books" for a reason: they are 100% document based: the documents are provided with each of the doc-u-books. Let's not forget the Superstition Mountain Museum spent some $10,000.00 plus dollars to a acquire the Crawford estate, meaning one is not bad just because one deals with Crawford.

Emory Taylor

Mr. Taylor,

I don't believe Ms. Neuttson has revealed her identity on this forum. If not, you shouldn't post it......Bad form.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Mr. Cactusjumper

Your friend Dave went to the correct location and got a picture of the Burns Well: good job. Your friend Dave went to the correct location and got a picture of Crawford's discovery spot: good job. Your friend Dave DID NOT go to the correct location of HSI's discovery spot, and DID NOT get a picture of it: try again.

Ipcress gave Dave (a post at this forum) the correct interpretation of the German Grail quest symbol. By following Ipcress' instructions (given at this forum), Dave will arrive at a spot between the rock out crop and the wash. Let me repeat this ... "between the rock out crop and the wash." Not in the wash, and not on the opposite side of the wash. Again ... "between the rock out crop and the wash."

Tell Dave to follow the instructions given by Ipcress (a post at this forum), and TAKE a metal detector with him. If he makes the correct measurements, he will discover something. Maybe you and Dave will share both picture (of the correct spot) and metal detector reading with everyone by posting them here. Maybe you will even give the correct conclusion one should draw from the metal detector reading. Or maybe not, after all, Dave twice now has taken pictures of the wrong spot concerning HSI's discovery spot.

Emory Taylor

Mr. Taylor,

Not much to put in a picture. Backkhoe dig that was covered over. Why don't you post a picture?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[ET]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Cactusjumper

I think everyone would be more interested in the metal detector reading.

I do not know for certain that Kristiana Neuttson is in fact Daringeagle, but the similarities are striking. I would put money on it. As for it being bad form to give out Daringeagle's true identity … your right, but remember, I am only guessing.

When I spoke to her, nearly two years ago now, I did not realize exactly what it was she was after. She hid it by asking most of her questions about another topic involving Crawford and Ward, with Gwynne only remotely involved. Of course I did not know it then. I have only realized this within the last two days. You have to know what your looking for before you can find it, or realize you did find it but did not know exactly what it was. That is what happened to me. I know something without know exactly what it was that I knew. Because of something posted at this forum I became suspicious about a couple questions Kristiana had asked me.

I have to give her credit. As Crawford's biographer, and being the only person still living who has read every word of ever on of Crawford's documents, I figured not only did I knew more about Crawford than anyone, but that I knew all the important facts concerning his treasure hunting activities. I was wrong.

Kristiana was onto something, and need just a couple answers from me. Once she had them she knew something which I did not realize was important. After reading this form and becoming suspicious about what she had done, I did some checking. I had to locate and read through twenty-six documents from the Crawford archive, but I found it. I am going to add it to my book about Crawford, Ward, and Gwynne.

Did you know that picture of Gwynne used by the Apache Junction Gold Canyon News, for the article about the bodies of the missing treasure hunters being found, is cropped from a picture taken by Phil Reinhardt in a nursing home in Scottsdale. Gwynne is holding Ward's book so the front cover can be seen, and he is standing next to Crawford, who is laying in a bed, and is calling Sharyn Berchok to tell her he has given Reinhardt and Gwynne permission to get his archive for me (Emory Taylor) to do his biography. Berchock was gone out of state at the time, and Crawford spoke to other people she had left at the house (Crawford's house) while she was gone. Interesting that someone (Gwynne or Newspaper) decided to use that particular picture. But just interesting. It is not significant, at least I do not think it is. Or maybe someone is sending someone else a message.

Emory Taylor

 

[ipcress]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

the story i was told is the spot of holy stones inc dig is a marker. some feet down there is more of the rock out cropping that just didn't make it to the surface. it's full of metal. it sets off a metal detector. burns supposedly knew this because he had metal detectors. he got them from army surplus. it was just a matter of measuring from the marker to the out cropping that's above the surface, and then along it to the well.

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

i dont care how many swiss switches you eat your never going to be swiss .... lol

was that off topic ,, or what