DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[gollum]

Is there a chance that military personal were involved, but not the military itself. I ask that question because its happened before on irag
This could be what's throwing off the search for answers. Also I was wondering if there is a peak similar to vp that noss could have taken people too. If they are like me. The may not know one from the other.
So noss could have taken a green horn to a mountain and said this is vp.
A green horn wouldn't know any better. So they would tell everyone. I saw the gold at vp. Is there another mountain close by with similar features.

HAHAHA

Funny you should mention Iraq. Orby Swanner's son Mark Swanner was a CIA Interrogator at Abu Ghraib. He was the center of a story about a prisoner that died while under his questioning. And should anybody wonder if there was a relationship between the two, here is Swanner's Obituary from 1986:



Notice that among his surviving relatives is one of his sons "Mark Swanner". Seems that as recompense for keeping VP a secret (for the most part), he attained the rank of Major in the Army and his son got into the CIA. The story was in The New Yorker on 14 November 2005 and titled "A Deadly Interrogation - Can the CIA Legally Kill A Prisoner?" by Jane Mayer

Mike

 

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[Not Peralta]

HA HA HA, look at doc's story when it first come to light, who made contradicting statements to the story that was being told by doc about VP,and then never being heard from again concerning the story,
remember the Mexican ranchers that lived in the area for years, also the ranchers helpers. heres a thought that has not been talked about,kind of like the fact that doc was shown VP. by someone. np

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>

Notice that among his surviving relatives is one of his sons "Mark Swanner". Seems that as recompense for keeping VP a secret (for the most part), he attained the rank of Major in the Army and his son got into the CIA.

Mike

"keeping VP a secret" you say? Swanner accuses the military of high crimes at Victorio Peak - allegations that if true would reach to the White House - and you are saying that then he is promoted and his son is given a CIA position? Pardon my temporary naivety, for a moment there, I thought you were being serious.

Gotta hand it to Orby, though. He does a great interview.

 

[Not Peralta]

HA HA HA, look at doc's story when it first come to light, who made contradicting statements to the story that was being told by doc about VP,and then never being heard from again concerning the story,
remember the Mexican ranchers that lived in the area for years, also the ranchers helpers. heres a thought that has not been talked about,kind of like the fact that doc was shown VP. by someone. np

IM sorry , but out of all the questions asked about VP, I just don't think people realize how important this question is, and this makes the third time I have asked it to prove a point, and I don't think no one knows the answer, but, there is an answer to my question, np

 

[sdcfia]

IM sorry , but out of all the questions asked about VP, I just don't think people realize how important this question is, and this makes the third time I have asked it to prove a point, and I don't think no one knows the answer, but, there is an answer to my question, np

Then please provide the answer and your take on the issue, np. I for one am interested in what you have to add.

 

[UncleMatt]

me too

 

[Not Peralta]

THANK YOU, the answer is doc was shown by locals were VP was located because of the caves located there, doc had asked locals in hotsprings or T or C , if anyone knew were there were caves in the area. also the Mexican ranchers in the area of VP had been utilizing the peak for almost 75 years, and so had other ranchers in the area, years ago when interviewed they admitted that there was nothing in VP or around it, for years they had been using VP and there kids played in it all the time, if there had been anything in or around it they would have found it, and two of the caves people camped in them often, I was interested in these stories of the people that lived in the area,it took me a long time to chase one family down, they explained to me that because of what their family had said that they were asked to change their minds about what they said,, and because they didn't they were run off their property's ,the family I talked to even though moving to another state, where still being threatened
years later to keep there mouth shut. this information from them was enough to convince me. in my opinion that info is the best first hand info a person can get. and don't ask me who this family is, I think they went through enough over all this. out of all the years this story has been kept alive they had only been interviewed once.( AMAZING ), for all these experts on VP, CLINT EASTWOOD said it best,
don't piss down my back and try to convince me its raining. np

 

[gollum]

"keeping VP a secret" you say? Swanner accuses the military of high crimes at Victorio Peak - allegations that if true would reach to the White House - and you are saying that then he is promoted and his son is given a CIA position? Pardon my temporary naivety, for a moment there, I thought you were being serious.

Gotta hand it to Orby, though. He does a great interview.

Maybe you could provide a copy of ANY interview conducted with Captain/Major Swanner? Just because he graffitied his info inside the cave and signed a notarized affidavit telling his story, does not mean he came out publicly with any allegations concerning his superiors. The only people Swanner told (that I know of) about the treasure recovery were his sister Juanita Irwin and brother-in-law Gene Irwin in 1961 or 1962 (1962 I believe). The only reason that came out is because Terry Delonas' brother Jim Delonas and wife (Sherra Delonas) personally knew Juanita Irwin.

I have to admit that I am guilty of thinking that Swanner had come out publicly and made claims against the government. There is no record of that. He may have done the graffiti and affidavit just to protect himself and/or his good name if things went bad with that.

Gene Irwin:

The operation of removing the gold was a well-kept secret, they shrouded a lot of stuff, it was a secret operation. I asked him why they weren't public with this and he said that it was very important to our national security, and, under the National Security Act, they have to protect these things, and if they made the announcement, they would have had claimants from all around coming to White Sands and causing a lot of problems that would interfere with our national security.

Also, William Orby Swanner was not just some schlubb officer. He was the White Sands Missile Range Operations Officer. His father-in-law was an Army full bird Colonel. Think that might be the reason he would have been entrusted with that secret operation? His military record is immaculate. He served as a Reserve Naval Aviator in WWII. After the war, he applied to receive a regular Army Commission which was approved in 1949. He was a very typical All-American Guy. He was a starting right guard high school football player. Boy Scout. etc etc etc. He was sent overseas not long after the 1961 treasure heist. He was moved around so much that his wife was not allowed to accompany him. He never told her where he was. She pestered her dad so much to find his location, they had a kind of falling out. Swanner eventually returned to the US. For a bit, everything was fine, then something went wrong. They took him to the hospital, and he died in a short period of time. His sister (Juanita) was told that he died a "horrible, painful death"; his body swelled up and he died from what Mrs Swanner thought was some kind of poisoning. This was 1986.

Another interesting note from the book, is that when the Unsolved Mysteries Episode aired, a man calling himself Jeffrey T Daniels called the program's hotline and talked about the gold removal. When asked about Swanner, he said he knew him, but would rather not talk about him because "Swanner leads to Kennedy and anyone who ever tried to follow Swanner's trail was eventually murdered."

Was Daniels just a crackpot? Qiuen Sabe.

Mike

 

[gollum]

................... also, another little tidbit concerning multiple sources that saw and handled the treasure:

Two names; Sgt Brooks Davis and George Gibson. Both were stationed at WSMR and both separately told their relatives virtually the same story about being part of the recovery team for the treasure at VP. I just don't feel like typing all their stories right now.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

First, thank you np for the interesting information. It helps support my contention that Victorio Peak was merely a dummy discovery site for gold that was found in the Caballos. It was likely chosen by Doc Noss to deflect attention away from the Caballos.

And Mike, that was a very enlightening post (#719) - thanks. This information opens the door for a rational explanation of the two Victorio Peak stories, the Doc Noss segment from 1937 to 1949, and the government segment that followed.

Story 1. Doc Noss and Willie Doughtit likely found a major gold cache in the Caballo Mountains in the 1930s, maybe earlier. In order to protect the cache's location and avoid possible murder liabilities in the Caballos, Noss moved maybe a couple hundred gold bars across the Jornado to Victorio Peak, where he knew there were caves he could use, and staged a "treasure discovery" there. He soon dynamited the entrance to his "treasure room" to prevent future access to it, and engaged in years of fraudulent activity designed to appear as if he were trying to re-enter the treasure vault. He was also scrambling to sell off whatever gold he could, considering it had been illegal to possess it since the Gold Act of 1933. His scams and schemes ended in 1949 when Charley Ryan killed him. Ova Noss was along for the ride, but probably was never told the truth by Doc, and believed the VP treasure tales to the end.

Story 2. The US military looted Nazi war spoils following WWII and moved a lot of gold back to the states while top officials tried to figure out how to keep it for themselves. Some genius heard about the Noss scam and figured the military could annex Victorio Peak into the White Sands complex, then move the Nazi gold into the VP caves, maybe about 1957-8. Then the Feige gang made their "discovery". The government got their ducks lined up and planned to call the discovered gold bars "Spanish treasure", not only located on government ground, but also unspecified by that crazy Noss back in the 40s. Therefore, it's a treasure trove and belongs to the government, fair and square. Next comes Swanner and the "recovery" operation, the gold moved to black ops, personal bank accounts of the elite, and who knows where else. That crazy Ova had to be stonewalled of course, because she still believed Noss's treasure tales from the old days, which was OK because there was never any Noss gold in those caves in the first place.

Swanner's conscience bothered him because he may have suspected the gold was actually melted Jewish dental work, stolen family assets, and other thievery. He spilled the beans to his family to help ease the guilt. This may have caught up to him later if he was indeed murdered. Concerning the Daniels Kennedy connection claims: do you realize Mike that Roger Snow made similar allegations several times in the past? Maybe your recent fireworks that got Roger kicked off the forum was some sort of Good Cop/Bad Cop theatrics by you two for the fun of it. Ha ha.

Anyway, there's my speculation for the day, subject to change of course. Noss scammed the VP story. The government piggybacked Doc's lies as a means of big time money laundering.

 

[gollum]

First, thank you np for the interesting information. It helps support my contention that Victorio Peak was merely a dummy discovery site for gold that was found in the Caballos. It was likely chosen by Doc Noss to deflect attention away from the Caballos.

And Mike, that was a very enlightening post (#719) - thanks. This information opens the door for a rational explanation of the two Victorio Peak stories, the Doc Noss segment from 1937 to 1949, and the government segment that followed.

Story 1. Doc Noss and Willie Doughtit likely found a major gold cache in the Caballo Mountains in the 1930s, maybe earlier. In order to protect the cache's location and avoid possible murder liabilities in the Caballos, Noss moved maybe a couple hundred gold bars across the Jornado to Victorio Peak, where he knew there were caves he could use, and staged a "treasure discovery" there. He soon dynamited the entrance to his "treasure room" to prevent future access to it, and engaged in years of fraudulent activity designed to appear as if he were trying to re-enter the treasure vault. He was also scrambling to sell off whatever gold he could, considering it had been illegal to possess it since the Gold Act of 1933. His scams and schemes ended in 1949 when Charley Ryan killed him. Ova Noss was along for the ride, but probably was never told the truth by Doc, and believed the VP treasure tales to the end.

Story 2. The US military looted Nazi war spoils following WWII and moved a lot of gold back to the states while top officials tried to figure out how to keep it for themselves. Some genius heard about the Noss scam and figured the military could annex Victorio Peak into the White Sands complex, then move the Nazi gold into the VP caves, maybe about 1957-8. Then the Feige gang made their "discovery". The government got their ducks lined up and planned to call the discovered gold bars "Spanish treasure", not only located on government ground, but also unspecified by that crazy Noss back in the 40s. Therefore, it's a treasure trove and belongs to the government, fair and square. Next comes Swanner and the "recovery" operation, the gold moved to black ops, personal bank accounts of the elite, and who knows where else. That crazy Ova had to be stonewalled of course, because she still believed Noss's treasure tales from the old days, which was OK because there was never any Noss gold in those caves in the first place.

Swanner's conscience bothered him because he may have suspected the gold was actually melted Jewish dental work, stolen family assets, and other thievery. He spilled the beans to his family to help ease the guilt. This may have caught up to him later if he was indeed murdered. Concerning the Daniels Kennedy connection claims: do you realize Mike that Roger Snow made similar allegations several times in the past? Maybe your recent fireworks that got Roger kicked off the forum was some sort of Good Cop/Bad Cop theatrics by you two for the fun of it. Ha ha.

Anyway, there's my speculation for the day, subject to change of course. Noss scammed the VP story. The government piggybacked Doc's lies as a means of big time money laundering.

It is a good theory. However, it all hinges on Doc lying about everything. With two people that actually saw the skeletons, gold, and jewels, I have a bit of a problem with that. Also, Willie Doughit admitted sharing his cave of gold with Buster Ward as early as 1927. I am sure that if Doc would have been in on it, that would have been spilled a long time ago. Remember, Willie had a hard time keeping his mouth closed (especially when he was drunk). Don't get me wrong; I don't doubt for a moment that the government might have piggybacked looted Nazi Gold onto what was already at VP. I just think there was a lot of treasure there as well as the Caballos. While I don't know how fully I can get behind that theory, I do admit it is very possible. One thing that makes it more possible to me is Leonard Fiege's description that many of the bars in his and Berlette's Cave were shiny with markings. Doc never described any of his bars like that. His description was that they looked like "pig iron", which meant they were rough looking dore bars. Shiny with markings means refined.

You are mistaken in your hypothesis that Roger and I drummed that whole thing up. Roger comes on the forums, and at first he is fine. After a bit, something happens and he starts posting those fifteen million character diatribes, and gets very insulting. Its not me or anybody else (that I know of) except Roger that gets him timed out or banned. Just to put it out there, I have never asked fr anybody to be timed out or banned since I joined this forum in 2006. From time to time, I have asked that some posts be deleted, but I am a big boy and don't need any moderators to handle my business for me. HAHAHA Eventually, Rog gets his meds dialed in (or whatever), and we make up. He and I email back and forth often. I have said it many times; because Roger grew up where he did with his dad (Harvey Snow), just by contact, he has a great amount of information that he could share when he wants to.

Mike

 

[markmar]

................... also, another little tidbit concerning multiple sources that saw and handled the treasure:

Two names; Sgt Brooks Davis and George Gibson. Both were stationed at WSMR and both separately told their relatives virtually the same story about being part of the recovery team for the treasure at VP. I just don't feel like typing all their stories right now.

Mike

Is this another example of a " secret " mission which is involved with the US national security ?

I believe the real story was :
The Army/State had " bite " the Doc Noss story about the gold bars in the VP and wanted to get a look in . But they wouldn't to be heard to the folks how followed a claim of a supposed liar and con man , and made up the story with the two Army officers ( a real example of honest US Army officers because they didn't touched the bars ) ) who allegedly found a cave full of gold bars in the St.Andres mountains ( no specific location because like was proven later they didn't remember !!!) .
After they found NOTHING , how they could protect their prestige and their two " honest " officers ? Was simple : They would shared " secretly " how found gold to all their relatives in the case how somebody will have later any doubt . They made a fictional/virtual alibi for their flop .

Just my honest opinion .

 

[UncleMatt]

Mike, is all this in the 3 books, and perhaps the fourth?

 

[gollum]

Mike, is all this in the 3 books, and perhaps the fourth?

Most of it is in the three books. It is also from newspaper clippings I have. I keep telling people to get those books if you are in the least bit interested in this subject. If your interest in small, they may seem too detailed and they kind of drag on. If your interest in the subject is great, or you are like SDCFIA and VOR, and you want a lot of referencing, they are also a great source. John's newest book (that he is currently working on) is a condensed version of the trilogy. I haven't gotten an advance copy of it yet, and don't know how much detail will be left out.

Mike

 

[UncleMatt]

done and done

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
You are mistaken in your hypothesis that Roger and I drummed that whole thing up. Roger comes on the forums, and at first he is fine. After a bit, something happens and he starts posting those fifteen million character diatribes, and gets very insulting. Its not me or anybody else (that I know of) except Roger that gets him timed out or banned. Just to put it out there, I have never asked fr anybody to be timed out or banned since I joined this forum in 2006. From time to time, I have asked that some posts be deleted, but I am a big boy and don't need any moderators to handle my business for me. HAHAHA Eventually, Rog gets his meds dialed in (or whatever), and we make up. He and I email back and forth often. I have said it many times; because Roger grew up where he did with his dad (Harvey Snow), just by contact, he has a great amount of information that he could share when he wants to.

Mike

That was a joke, just trying to inject a little levity in this murky subject.

I've launched into the Gold House Book 1. I won't be acquiring Books 2 and 3. If the writer is indeed producing a summary version of the trilogy in one volume, I would suggest to those interested that they wait for it. By the time I got to Chapter 1 (after the disclaimer, synopsis, acknowledgments, introduction, preface and prologue), I was already scanning and skipping big chunks of sleep-inducing minutia. The font choices were unfortunate (body text way, way too small, italic quotes difficult to read). The photos chosen are not well displayed (way too low resolution).

On to the book's content. Chapters 1 and 2 (my progress so far) are, in my opinion, not well written - filled with historical errors and totally unsupported conclusions, disjointed and wandering, wandering. The book could have desperately used a strong editor.

That said, I am learning a few things I was previously unaware of. One has to wonder if they're factual however, because I have to say, the writer's introduction of the big powwow between Geronimo (yes, that Geronimo) and an 8-year old Noss is not only presented as a cornerstone in the VP saga, but supported solely by "family folklore". I wonder if the whole VP explanation will be based on what Doc told Ova and the kids. If so, it will take a strong leap of faith the swallow it.

However, I'll soldier through this volume with an open mind. It's apparent the writer poured years of time and energy into this thing - I hope he tried to be objective.

 

[UncleMatt]

Why focus only on Geronimo, when Noss was also supposedly given a map by a Native-American patient at his foot doctor practice in lieu of payment for treatment? I am learning new things as well in Book 1, and look forward to learning more.

 

[gollum]

That was a joke, just trying to inject a little levity in this murky subject.

I've launched into the Gold House Book 1. I won't be acquiring Books 2 and 3. If the writer is indeed producing a summary version of the trilogy in one volume, I would suggest to those interested that they wait for it. By the time I got to Chapter 1 (after the disclaimer, synopsis, acknowledgments, introduction, preface and prologue), I was already scanning and skipping big chunks of sleep-inducing minutia. The font choices were unfortunate (body text way, way too small, italic quotes difficult to read). The photos chosen are not well displayed (way too low resolution).

On to the book's content. Chapters 1 and 2 (my progress so far) are, in my opinion, not well written - filled with historical errors and totally unsupported conclusions, disjointed and wandering, wandering. The book could have desperately used a strong editor.

That said, I am learning a few things I was previously unaware of. One has to wonder if they're factual however, because I have to say, the writer's introduction of the big powwow between Geronimo (yes, that Geronimo) and an 8-year old Noss is not only presented as a cornerstone in the VP saga, but supported solely by "family folklore". I wonder if the whole VP explanation will be based on what Doc told Ova and the kids. If so, it will take a strong leap of faith the swallow it.

However, I'll soldier through this volume with an open mind. It's apparent the writer poured years of time and energy into this thing - I hope he tried to be objective.

So I guess you got Volume 1 because you found it on a Bit Torrent Site where the other two aren't? HAHAHA

I am surprised that you didn't relish in the minutiae! I felt the same as you, but at the same time, as a reference book on the subject, all the minutiae are required. Some of that same minutiae comes back in book 2. See, there is little to no documented corroborating evidence for the finds or neither Doc nor Willie/Buster. All three of the books were researched to death. Just because he had unprecedented access to the Noss family Archives, does not mean he didn't research everything.

If you read the second book, that gives more documented evidence and multiple eyewitness testimonies of people involved in the theft of the treasure. If you have the first book, you will be sorely lacking by not getting the other two.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

So I guess you got Volume 1 because you found it on a Bit Torrent Site where the other two aren't? HAHAHA

I am surprised that you didn't relish in the minutiae! I felt the same as you, but at the same time, as a reference book on the subject, all the minutiae are required. Some of that same minutiae comes back in book 2. See, there is little to no documented corroborating evidence for the finds or neither Doc nor Willie/Buster. All three of the books were researched to death. Just because he had unprecedented access to the Noss family Archives, does not mean he didn't research everything.

If you read the second book, that gives more documented evidence and multiple eyewitness testimonies of people involved in the theft of the treasure. If you have the first book, you will be sorely lacking by not getting the other two.

Mike

I got my copy from someone called Castle Rock Books.

Yeah, the Willie/Buster and Doc stories are all over the map, and I was hoping for some more insight from this book. I'm only at Chapter 3 - we'll see. My working model remains the "Story 1" scenario from Post #721. My interest lies in trying to approach the reality of the alleged Caballo discoveries by Reynolds, Douhtit, Ward, Noss, Drolte and others. I know that you are ambivalent about the true source of the Caballo gold, but to me, that's the mystery and the hook.

I don't care much about the alleged government removal of gold from VP (or the Noss family legal affairs), as I believe that if a theft occurred, then it was likely a setup using the convenient Noss legend as a plausible cover. Government thievery, lying and murder? No surprise to me - I've been watching that go down since I woke up in 1963. I do feel empathy for the Noss family fighting all those years for something that, in my view, never was.

 

[UncleMatt]

I must be a loon, I loved all the detail!