DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[markmar]

Geia sou Markmar. Cafe?? here is a corrected map showing similarity to NP's map. The Chinapas group lies on the Chinapas river drainage, The Tayopa 3, The true Tayopa , lies on the Mayo drainage, The Tayops 2 lies on the Yaqui drainage Each progressively further West, forming the hook in the serpent in NP's map


View attachment 1074105View attachment 1074109

Geia sou Don Jose

Now , all are very clear !

 

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[Not Peralta]

Real Amigo,hot for anyone that is interested, I have already explained about these maps in the beginning of this thread. noss had these maps in his possessions, ova had them, leathra had them, they ended up being a great embarrassment for them , they didn't know what they had,and had never really paid any attention to them, then made up an elaborate scheme to bring them out for their last hunt in the cabollo's . the only thing for years on these people's mind was VP.thats all they knew. some of them didn't want anything else to do with VP. you can never tell whats on peoples minds. only what they want you to know, even though leathra was there from the beginning of all this stuff with doc and ova she could never really keep up with all the stories that were told, even though she was always there,
to me she acted like she never really had anyone that she could talk to . there was always too many secret deals going on in this family and too many dislikes between family members.she put on a good
PR front. np

 

[Not Peralta]

Just so people know, I received these maps in 1995, which was almost 20 yrs ago, I posted these three maps with the hope that they would be useful to someone in their endeavors.
other wise they may never have been made public. they were posted just like the rest of my imformation, freely, without any expectations of reward or notoriety. to whom ever could make use of them. np

 

[markmar]

Hi NP

If all these maps which you have posted were in Doc Noss possession , I don't understand how he " saw " the Victorio Peak on them . The lil map shows the eastern down landmark the Caballos and after the trail go far NE . Another shows a hill ( mountain ) with many peaks . Another shows a mountain range ( like from a west to east image ) with a gap between and the Elephant Butte to the left , etc. . None of these maps show a clue to describe VP region .
What led Doc Noss to VP ? His intuition or his imagination ? Had Noss the unique map which shows the VP and destroyed it ?
Why Noss didn't told the story what led him to VP ? Nobody from his family or friends knew ? If exist such document , i would like to see or to read it .

 

[Not Peralta]

Markmar, hello ,I will try to explain what I know, I believe what eventually led noss to VP, was in fact what he found because of willie d's discovery in the cabollo's, noss had asked too many people about locations of caves in that area, and there had been many people in and at VP before doc ever knew it existed. as for these maps , I don't know .np

 

[markmar]

Markmar, hello ,I will try to explain what I know, I believe what eventually led noss to VP, was in fact what he found because of willie d's discovery in the cabollo's, noss had asked too many people about locations of caves in that area, and there had been many people in and at VP before doc ever knew it existed. as for these maps , I don't know .np

So , from all the people who were at VP and had seen the caves , only Noss was the most intelligent and found the rich cave . If Noss knew how Willie's discovery was in the Caballos , why he went to VP ? Had asked about a region with many caves just to choose a region for his lure promotion ?
To me the VP story/source of the Noss gold bars has many gaps and I classified it : untrue .

 

[Not Peralta]

Markmar, yes the source of the alleged gold bars at VP has many gaps, unless you consider some of willie's gold bars being moved to VP by doc, theres too many things in the original story that was told by doc that does not make sense,np

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Marius, Here is Victorio peak on the mapit is that triangular shaped mt in front fo the Caballos/

 

[markmar]

Marius, Here is Victorio peak on the mapit is that triangular shaped mt in front fo the Caballos/

Don Jose

The two triangular shapes east and west from Caballos , show the direction ( from - to ) of the trails . All the roads lead to the Caballos almacen . Only the heart is independent , maybe because is an aller - retour trail .

 

[gollum]

Okay fans, for those of you who so easily dismiss the notarized statements of Capt Orby Swanner, you might want to check out a bit of corroborating evidence.
WSMR and the US Army said they had no interest in VP, correct? They said that Doc Noss was nothing but a huckster. The Army said that they never conducted any secret operations at VP? Believe the Government/Military if you want to, here are the notarized affidavits of some witnesses. Keep in mind that the Captain that is mentioned was our very own Captain Orby Swanner.

Here is a quote from The Gold House (Book#2):

At 9am on Saturday, October 28, 1961, the extraction operation at Victorio Peak was in full swing under the direction of Shinkle and under Leland Howard’s sanction and directive. On that day, Shinkle’s Operatives were caught red handed. Otero County Magistrate and Municipal Judge Robert H Bradley, RB Gray, noted Levelland, Texas County Judge Hulon L Moreland, and Ray D Bradley witnessed the criminal activity up close.
In signed, notarized affidavits of November 6, 1961 each man swore that he had seen White Sands military personnel and at least one civilian in the process of accessing the Noss Treasure.


Judge Robert H Bradley:


I proceeded to the old Noss mineral claim, past the improvements, and saw a military Jeep number 0987057. On proceeding further, I saw another military vehicle, which is commonly called a weapons carrier. There I saw two additional men, one dressed in a Levi Jacket and a red sweatshirt, the other dressed in Army Fatigues. I could still hear the motor running and saw shoring timber and line poles, which were all cut to 4 and a half to five foot lengths. All this material and activity was located in the area of the old Noss mining claim. I also saw two light plants (generators), one of which was running and had wires running from the machine, the other machine was not running. The military Jeep numbered above was a military police vehicle with a red light on the hood. It had a two way radio set in it.
-------------JUDGE ROBERT BRADLEY


R.B.Gray:


One of the men was a Captain in the military. This captain told me to leave before the colonel arrived and asked us what we were doing there. I saw several 5 gallon GI gas cans, walkie talkies, mining wedges, and timber. I also saw light plant cables running into a cave. The Captain said the area was classified and that he should have taken them in. That there were four Air Force Personnel and four Army Personnel at the mining site, and that any responsibility for working the mining claim would have to go to his superiors, a major and a colonel.
---------------R.B.GRAY


Judge Hulon L Moreland:


That Saturday, October 28, 1961, at approximately 9am, I, together with three other men, was at the rim of the Hembrillo Basin and saw two men on top of Victoria Peak. I heard a motor running that sounded like a Caterpillar motor. I proceeded past the old Noss Claim, past the improvements, and saw Jeep number 0987057. I saw another military vehicle ………. A weapons carrier. I saw shoring timbers and telephone poles cut in short lengths.
--------------------- JUDGE HULON L MORELAND


Ray D Bradley:


There appeared to be a space which had been cleared off, which was about four feet by six feet and eighteen inches deep. The Captain and one other man I took to be a civilian, were working in the hole with shovels.
Captain Swanner said that any responsibility for working the mining claim would have to go to his superiors, a Major Kelly and Colonel Gorman. I was there at the time they were there. I talked with the captain, he may have said that the responsibility for working the project, rather than working the claim. The Captain said that he was under orders for the work.
-----------------------RAY D BRADLEY

Mike

 

[markmar]

Mike

If was a secret operation , why Captain Swanner wrote his name on the wall of the cave ? And why the Army allowed so many witnesses ?
Aaaaa... , now I understand ! Was not a TOP SECRET operation .
And nothing about gold bars .

 

[markmar]

NP

One of the Noss maps which you shared , shows the seven scaled doors which were mentioned in the Pope Pius III text .

 

[sdcfia]

Okay fans, for those of you who so easily dismiss the notarized statements of Capt Orby Swanner, you might want to check out a bit of corroborating evidence.
WSMR and the US Army said they had no interest in VP, correct? They said that Doc Noss was nothing but a huckster. The Army said that they never conducted any secret operations at VP? Believe the Government/Military if you want to, here are the notarized affidavits of some witnesses. Keep in mind that the Captain that is mentioned was our very own Captain Orby Swanner.

Here is a quote from The Gold House (Book#2): <etc>


Mike

Not exactly backing Swanner's 93 million ounces of gold allegations, though, are they? One thing sorely lacking from these three mens' statements is any mention of metal bars. We know the hill was torn up, mostly by Gaddis Mining Co. I believe. However, the only mention of the gold bars is Swanner's notarized statement, which, with nothing to back it up, sounds like some sort of an attention-getting ploy. I don't doubt that the military and the politicians had devious plans, but it kind of looks like the 100-bar Noss cache was all she wrote.

 

[UncleMatt]

So lets take as a given the factual basis of the quotes Gollum posted above. Sounds to me like they were shoring up a tunnel, when they mention "shore timbers" and Line poles" cut to certain lengths. So a tunnel from where to where exactly? Were they digging something new, or were they enlarging or making safe a tunnel they found on site?

 

[gollum]

So lets take as a given the factual basis of the quotes Gollum posted above. Sounds to me like they were shoring up a tunnel, when they mention "shore timbers" and Line poles" cut to certain lengths. So a tunnel from where to where exactly? Were they digging something new, or were they enlarging or making safe a tunnel they found on site?

Thanks Matt,

SDCFIA, you missed the entire point of the post. The military said a lot of things. The fact that they were caught red handed in a lie is very telling. Why would they be digging a tunnel and shoring it up with timbers? Remember, they were not involved with any mining activities, nor were they interested in any nonexistant gold in VP.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT, nonetheless, they were opening up a tunnel in VP. Why would that be?

Swanner was operating under orders (not his own). More than likely, he anticipated telling the story someday and wanted to leave proof, so he left his name and info there. Here is a bit (again from the book) from a statement by Swanner's Sister, Juanita Erwin, about what Orby said to her and her husband in 1961:

He said he was one of the last people to leave the cave and that he had left evidence of his being there in the cave. I didn't know what he was talking about; I didn't know what kind of evidence, but he did say that.

The reason I posted that was because of the people that said Swanner could have put his name in the cave any time after.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Thanks Matt,

SDCFIA, you missed the entire point of the post. The military said a lot of things. The fact that they were caught red handed in a lie is very telling. Why would they be digging a tunnel and shoring it up with timbers? Remember, they were not involved with any mining activities, nor were they interested in any nonexistant gold in VP.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT, nonetheless, they were opening up a tunnel in VP. Why would that be?

Swanner was operating under orders (not his own). More than likely, he anticipated telling the story someday and wanted to leave proof, so he left his name and info there. Here is a bit (again from the book) from a statement by Swanner's Sister, Juanita Erwin, about what Orby said to her and her husband in 1961:

The reason I posted that was because of the people that said Swanner could have put his name in the cave any time after.

Mike

I'm sure the military was probing VP for gold - I'd be surprised otherwise, especially in light of the Fiege discovery of Noss's 100-bar cache at the base of the hill. Yes, the three civilians saw them at work, but they did not see any gold.

Swanner can say whatever to whomever, but other than leaving grafitti in an empty cave following the Fiege affair, what proof do we have that 93 million ounces of gold were removed from VP under his supervision? A sworn statement. Did he volunteer to take a polygraph test? Does he have statements from other GI's who were also there? Does he have photos of the bars being taken from the hill or loaded into vehicles? Did he retain any clipboard notes from the operation?

We don't know Swanner's motivation for speaking out (justice, attention, money), but if he was pissed off at the government's actions at VP, then why didn't he play a better hand than he did?

 

[johnmark29020]

Okay fans, for those of you who so easily dismiss the notarized statements of Capt Orby Swanner, you might want to check out a bit of corroborating evidence.
WSMR and the US Army said they had no interest in VP, correct? They said that Doc Noss was nothing but a huckster. The Army said that they never conducted any secret operations at VP? Believe the Government/Military if you want to, here are the notarized affidavits of some witnesses. Keep in mind that the Captain that is mentioned was our very own Captain Orby Swanner.

Here is a quote from The Gold House (Book#2):

Mike

Is there a chance that military personal were involved, but not the military itself. I ask that question because its happened before on irag
This could be what's throwing off the search for answers. Also I was wondering if there is a peak similar to vp that noss could have taken people too. If they are like me. The may not know one from the other.
So noss could have taken a green horn to a mountain and said this is vp.
A green horn wouldn't know any better. So they would tell everyone. I saw the gold at vp. Is there another mountain close by with similar features.

 

[UncleMatt]

Well lets see, if I was in the military and was exploring some caves and tunnels, would I need a couple of generators, or a few flashlights? Now if I was setting up a work site underground, like one might find shored up with line timbers, flashlights would no longer be suitable. Its hard to work with your hands and hold a flashlight at the same time, especially if you are digging or perhaps carrying heavy objects and/ or loading them onto transports. I might also need generators for ventilation units, again whose use would be appropriate in an underground work site where people would be working hard and perhaps even smoking. Not for simply exploring empty caverns where there is nothing to see. Nothing to see, nothing of interest = no generators, no shoring poles

And I ask, are we in a position to state for certain what people working there at that time did or did not see? If there is no evidence FOR something, is there any AGAINST? If neither, drawing any conclusion must await further evidence. But when you take into account the actions of the people at the site, and the equipment they were using, that IS evidence of something....

 

[johnmark29020]

Well lets see, if I was in the military and was exploring some caves and tunnels, would I need a couple of generators, or a few flashlights? Now if I was setting up a work site underground, like one might find shored up with line timbers, flashlights would no longer be suitable. Its hard to work with your hands and hold a flashlight at the same time, especially if you are digging or perhaps carrying heavy objects and/ or loading them onto transports. I might also need generators for ventilation units, again whose use would be appropriate in an underground work site where people would be working hard and perhaps even smoking. Not for simply exploring empty caverns where there is nothing to see. Nothing to see, nothing of interest = no generators, no shoring poles

And I ask, are we in a position to state for certain what people working there at that time did or did not see? If there is no evidence FOR something, is there any AGAINST? If neither, drawing any conclusion must await further evidence. But when you take into account the actions of the people at the site, and the equipment they were using, that IS evidence of something....

I agree the movement and equipment used tells alot. When I found what I believe to be the true location of the ldm in arizona. There was evidence that confirmed many of the stories. Many of the landmarks,trail markers from several stories was there in plain site. The evidence showed me. Many of the people who were looking for the mine had real information. They only messed up one landmark. So they were in the wrong place. This may be the case with VP. Good information but the wrong location.
Also the answer may be more straight forward than it seems. I got off my atv. Walk 100 feet off the trail. Climbed a hill,and bam I was looking at the perfil mapa. It looked just like the map. I had to do a double take. I just couldn't believe it was so close to a well used trail. That's when I determined that people had to know where the ldm was located. The map of nps looks just like the south side of the perfil mapa. One low hill across a cannon from a tall mountain. I think the military removed some of the noss treasure but not all of it. If they had it all. I think they would let archeologic in to see the site. That way they could say. See there is nothing here. Since they are still protective of the site. Tells me either they think there is more to be found,or the evidence is so overwhelming. People would be able to prove noss correct.

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>

And I ask, are we in a position to state for certain what people working there at that time did or did not see? If there is no evidence FOR something, is there any AGAINST? If neither, drawing any conclusion must await further evidence. But when you take into account the actions of the people at the site, and the equipment they were using, that IS evidence of something....

The burden of proof is on the ones who raise the allegations. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Until someone provides more than what we've seen so far, I have to assume that Noss and his helpers moved perhaps a couple hundred bars of gold from the Caballo Mountains to Victorio Peak in order to draw attention away from his find. All the drama that ensued makes for good books, but the big story is likely still in the Caballos. I could be wrong, but that would be my focus until convinced otherwise. My copy of Gold House Book 1 arrived today and I'll see what it offers - I hope the story is better than the photos.