DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

Amigo, when I catch him,:laughing7: ride just as far as I can away from a noss anything:laughing7:np:cat: ps. when I cannot ride him no more its burro bbq,and hot:coffee2:
 

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That Noss video reminds me of that "Treasure Force" group that claimed to have found the LAD awhile back. I actually posted a call out thread on T-net trying to get the guy to back up his claims, but never heard a whisper, even though I sent him a link directly to it and dared him to come post. :laughing7:
 

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NP, you need to start a new exercise fad - chasing a burrow up a hill. You provide the burrows and the hill, and collect the cash at the bottom. Then you have a concession stand at the top. You also offer golf cart rides back down the hill for $5.
 

Real Amigo, actually after catching the burro I would make camp, and :coffee2:,then lay the burro down ,lean up against him and rub his belly,and drink my hot:coffee2:,and tell him all my worries,before going to sleep with my head on his belly.:thumbsup: np:cat:
 

GOOD MORN"Nhave your hot:coffee2:To understand how there became a place like victorio peak to house a fantastic treasure, you have to look at the person or persons that made those claims of such a find, and why they let the story
out to start with. I am not going to give my opinion, or the truths that I discovered,I already did that in the beginning of this thread , but I will tell you if you are on the right path, evidence is everything. np:cat:

This Jack Reynolds character is alleged to be the one who had the maps - Willie killing him to get possession, and Doc Noss also entering the picture soon after. NP, is Reynolds a real person, do we know he actually existed?

Let's go off on yet another tangent. Here's some interesting name coincidences. Two Reynolds brothers, reported to have ridden with Quantrill, operated as a robbery gang - sort of like the James Gang - in Colorado in the 1860s. They are reported to have had some dealings in the Spanish Peaks area of SE Colorado, "home" of the LUE treasure. Those who follow these things claim that the Reynolds Gang is part of the KGC, which is reputed to be a secret group with knowledge of lots of hidden treasures in the west. If he existed, is it possible Jack Reynolds is a descendant, and possibly a KGC agent?

Milton Noss also went by the name of Tom Starr in Oklahoma. Oklahoma is the home of Belle Starr and Henry Starr, two outlaws who also are claimed to have been mixed up with the KGC after the Civil War. Is it possible Noss (Starr) was a KGC agent?

One of the KGC rumors is that they assisted (or were) a Confederate attachment of soldiers that removed the Maximilian/Carlotta treasure from Mexico and brought it into the US. This treasure, or part of it, is pinned to artifacts that Noss claimed to have removed from Victorio Peak, or maybe even the Caballos. Is it possible that the Caballos/Victorio Peak stories deal with a KGC treasure?

Just thinking out loud here. First things first - did Jack Reynolds exist?
 

sdcfia, I would like to refer you to the KGC legends and ask L.C. BAKER these questions, I believe he would be able to answer them all for you. np:cat:
 

This Jack Reynolds character is alleged to be the one who had the maps - Willie killing him to get possession, and Doc Noss also entering the picture soon after. NP, is Reynolds a real person, do we know he actually existed?

Let's go off on yet another tangent. Here's some interesting name coincidences. Two Reynolds brothers, reported to have ridden with Quantrill, operated as a robbery gang - sort of like the James Gang - in Colorado in the 1860s. They are reported to have had some dealings in the Spanish Peaks area of SE Colorado, "home" of the LUE treasure. Those who follow these things claim that the Reynolds Gang is part of the KGC, which is reputed to be a secret group with knowledge of lots of hidden treasures in the west. If he existed, is it possible Jack Reynolds is a descendant, and possibly a KGC agent?

Milton Noss also went by the name of Tom Starr in Oklahoma. Oklahoma is the home of Belle Starr and Henry Starr, two outlaws who also are claimed to have been mixed up with the KGC after the Civil War. Is it possible Noss (Starr) was a KGC agent?

One of the KGC rumors is that they assisted (or were) a Confederate attachment of soldiers that removed the Maximilian/Carlotta treasure from Mexico and brought it into the US. This treasure, or part of it, is pinned to artifacts that Noss claimed to have removed from Victorio Peak, or maybe even the Caballos. Is it possible that the Caballos/Victorio Peak stories deal with a KGC treasure?

Just thinking out loud here. First things first - did Jack Reynolds exist?

SDCFIA,


Jack Reynolds was a boy that hitchhiked to Hatch, NM to get into the Sanitarium. The lady that ran the sanitarium (Margaret Perrone) took the boy in and kind of ad hoc adopted him. She fed him took care of him for a while. The story goes that a trucker that gave him a ride to the area, dropped him off and showed him an old line shack he could use for shelter from a coming rain. While there, he pulled the wood from a windowsill and found the map. He showed the map to Mrs Perrone (who was Castillano). She recognized the map for what it was and helped him to decipher the symbols. She had bought him a new red wool coat. He went to the area of Granite Peak to the place they figured the map led to. He was never seen again. It was shortly after that, when Willie found the cave. Sometime after that, Jack's new red wool coat was found with two bullet holes in the back. Mrs Perrone guessed that Willie had murdered Jack and called the Sheriff (Lucero). Willie was in the hotel in Hatch waiting for a buyer for some gold bars, when the Sheriff and a couple of others caught up with him. This was the second time Willie was captured, kidnapped, and tortured. When he got away from his captors this time, he knew the game was up. People knew or guessed that had murdered the boy. So, he loaded up all the gold he could, then hightailed it to San Diego and changed his name.


THAT was another possibility. Since there are so few facts that are documented from the late 1920s in rural New Mexico, who knows what the truth is. Probably somewhere between what Willie/Larry says and every other story out there.

While that possibility is widely believed by those that attribute evil motives to Willie Doughit, I can tell you that the entire story could not possibly be true. The timeline is way off. Willie found the cave in 1927. The second time he was kidnapped was in May of 1930:

El_Paso_Evening_Post_Thu__May_8__1930 small_.jpg


Mike
 

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this is all extremely interesting ! however i have a question for us all . although i realize that the stories and the research are perhaps the hardest part of this little gig we all share. what on earth does this any of this have to do with figuring out just who the original folks were who deposited this treasure that we are trying to figure out?
 

this is all extremely interesting ! however i have a question for us all . although i realize that the stories and the research are perhaps the hardest part of this little gig we all share. what on earth does this any of this have to do with figuring out just who the original folks were who deposited this treasure that we are trying to figure out?

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

But then again, this thread has nothing to do with who deposited the gold. Just whether Doc found it in the San Andres or the Caballos. If you want to try and figure that out, I suggest starting a thread titled "Where did all the New Mexico Gold Come From?"

Mike
 

For those that still think there was nothing in VP, here is an excerpt from a Las Cruces, NM newspaper article regarding Benny Samaniego and Jose Serafin Sedillo:

Independent_Press_Telegram_Sun__Oct_6__1974_ Benny).jpg

Here are a couple of lesser known pics of Benny Samaniego:

BennySamaniego.jpg Las_Cruces_Sun_News_Wed__Aug_16__1950_.jpg

Benny did a lot of work to the suit of armor that Doc let him have. Reattached the mail in places, replaced all the old rotted leather straps, etc.

I added these as I have been going through all my old notes, articles, and pics. One thing I brought away from going back to square one is that all these suppositions and theories are just that. Unproved allegations. While it is possible some might be true, listen to the first hand sources. Read what Benny and Jose said THEY SAW! Listen to Ova:



Did you listen closely? Did you hear Ova say that Doc thought the bars were "Pig Iron"? Did you hear Ova say that she asked Doc to bring up one of those bars of "Pig Iron" in about 1939? That was two years after he first went into VP. She states specifically that Doc concentrated on bringing up Jewelry and Coins in the beginning.

Think what you want, but listen to the people who were there. It's very easy to just say they were lying.

Mike
 

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For those that still think there was nothing in VP, here is an excerpt from a Las Cruces, NM newspaper article regarding Benny Samaniego and Jose Serafin Sedillo.
<cut>
One thing I brought away from going back to square one is that all these suppositions and theories are just that. Unproved allegations. While it is possible some might be true, listen to the first hand sources. Read what Benny and Jose said THEY SAW! Listen to Ova: <cut>

Did you listen closely? Did you hear Ova say that Doc thought the bars were "Pig Iron"? Did you hear Ova say that she asked Doc to bring up one of those bars of "Pig Iron" in about 1939? That was two years after he first went into VP. She states specifically that Doc concentrated on bringing up Jewelry and Coins in the beginning.

Think what you want, but listen to the people who were there. It's very easy to just say they were lying.

Mike

We can certainly agree that Samaniego, Sedillo and Jolley received gold bars, and old armor in Samaniego's case, for assisting Noss at VP. Those facts are fairly well established, but the question of where those items originated is not conclusively established in my view.

Noss of course was noted as a serial liar, which is the gist of this discussion, and he is the only person alleged to have been in the treasure room. Yes, I know Samaniego claims he was there too, but since Benny seems to have sought out publicity over the affair later (riding in parades showing off the armor, for example), it always was my suspicion that he merely parroted Boss's description of what was allegedly in the peak to further bolster his image. Understandable, and probably done in good faith.

As far as Ova is concerned, she just repeated everything Doc told her. Then, after he dumped her, sadly soldiered on believing what he told her. She wasn't a liar, nor were Doc's helpers (well, Benny likely fibbed a little), they were merely repeating Doc's probable lies with honest intentions. Con men are convincing.

As you said, "all these suppositions and theories are just that. Unproved allegations."
 

So has anyone spoken to Benny's family about the fate of the armor he liked to wear that Noss gave him? Does the family still hold it? An analysis of it might help put a date on some of this.

Perhaps a specialist in Spanish armor could look at the photos and offer an opinion as well...

Later Edit: In the Gold House book 1, its mentioned that he sold it to a museum. Someone needs to track that down and try to determine when/where it was made.
 

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So has anyone spoken to Manny's family about the fate of the armor he liked to wear that Noss gave him? Does the family still hold it? An analysis of it might help put a date on some of this.

Perhaps a specialist in Spanish armor could look at the photos and offer an opinion as well...

Yeah, I wonder what happened to that armor. It looks like fairly valuable protection for the time. Chainmail cape, steel helmet and breastplate was the type of utilitarian gear a professional fighter would own. It was common since the Spanish arrived in the 1500s and probably used through the 1700s, maybe later.

nossarmor.jpg
 

We can certainly agree that Samaniego, Sedillo and Jolley received gold bars, and old armor in Samaniego's case, for assisting Noss at VP. Those facts are fairly well established, but the question of where those items originated is not conclusively established in my view.

Noss of course was noted as a serial liar, which is the gist of this discussion, and he is the only person alleged to have been in the treasure room. Yes, I know Samaniego claims he was there too, but since Benny seems to have sought out publicity over the affair later (riding in parades showing off the armor, for example), it always was my suspicion that he merely parroted Boss's description of what was allegedly in the peak to further bolster his image. Understandable, and probably done in good faith.

As far as Ova is concerned, she just repeated everything Doc told her. Then, after he dumped her, sadly soldiered on believing what he told her. She wasn't a liar, nor were Doc's helpers (well, Benny likely fibbed a little), they were merely repeating Doc's probable lies with honest intentions. Con men are convincing.

As you said, "all these suppositions and theories are just that. Unproved allegations."

SDCFIA,

Okay. Once again, listen to Ova. After two years, Ova asked Doc to bring up a bar of "Pig Iron". When Doc got it up to the top, he said that was the last time he would bring up one of those things. Ova couldn't even lift it. That means it must have weighed 40 or 50 pounds. So, you believe that Doc dragged about 300 40-50 pound dore bars all the way up that 400' hill. Down into the shaft. Then dragged these 40-50 pound bars back up this shaft all for a show? I don't buy it for a second. ESPECIALLY since Benny Samaniego testified that he saw the bars AND treasure inside VP where Doc said it was. Sorry, but VP was the ORIGINAL SOURCE for Doc's Treasure.

Now, after he started having problems with the Government regarding VP, did he hit Willie's Cave or did he find another accumulation room in the Caballos? To me, that is the big question.

Mike
 

SDCFIA,

Okay. Once again, listen to Ova. After two years, Ova asked Doc to bring up a bar of "Pig Iron". When Doc got it up to the top, he said that was the last time he would bring up one of those things. Ova couldn't even lift it. That means it must have weighed 40 or 50 pounds. So, you believe that Doc dragged about 300 40-50 pound dore bars all the way up that 400' hill. Down into the shaft. Then dragged these 40-50 pound bars back up this shaft all for a show? I don't buy it for a second. ESPECIALLY since Benny Samaniego testified that he saw the bars AND treasure inside VP where Doc said it was. Sorry, but VP was the ORIGINAL SOURCE for Doc's Treasure.

Now, after he started having problems with the Government regarding VP, did he hit Willie's Cave or did he find another accumulation room in the Caballos? To me, that is the big question.

Mike

That's the problem with everyone being dead - we can't probe those stories for clarification. When Ova suggested retrieving the "pig iron" bar to Doc, was she there at the top of the peak and see him go down the hole and come up with a bar? Or did Doc bring her one to show her later? Lots of nuances and possibilities behind Ova's pig iron bar tale.

Ordinarily, a fair-minded person would take Ova's story to the bank as the unquestioned truth, as you do. However, Noss was a grifter, and these types know what it takes to convince people who have big expectations. Would Noss be deceptive with Ova? Why not? His regard for her apparently didn't prevent him from dumping her in favor of some new babe in Arkansas.

No, I don't think Noss lugged a couple hundred bars up to the top of the peak, but I do wonder if maybe he didn't take a few up there, or a dozen for a "show", prior to the "accidental" closing off of the peak's top end. We've heard testimony about a hundred or so bars that Noss's helpers saw at various places near VP. Dr. Swearigen also thought that the Fiege discovery was another hundred bars that Noss himself put in the cave at the base of the peak. If Noss was paranoid about the gold, it makes more sense to me that he would move gold to VP as a diversion away from, say, the Caballos. This would protect the Caballo location. If the gold came from VP, it seems like he'd hide those recovered bars far away from the peak, not at its base.
 

Just for fun, I Google Imaged the words Spanish helmet. I scanned hundreds of images in the results, and didn't see any that looked like the one we see in Manny's photos. I also included chainmail in the search terms, but still nothing similar. Most Spanish helmets consisted of 2 hammered plates joined at the top of a peaked helmet, with brims at least a couple of inches wide. The one Manny is displaying appears to be a single plate hammered into a hemisphere, and then a narrow brim added. There are some Spanish kettle hats called capelinas that come close, but still have much wider brims.

I encourage everyone to try to find a match for the type of helmet and breastplate we see in the photos, and post if you come up with anything.
 

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Here is the closes thing I could find, a cabasett from 1580-1600: A-81.jpg

And this one for sale on ebay: cabas.JPG
 

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