Do the Stone Tablets lead to somewhere OTHER than the Superstition Mtns?

[Somero]

To settle an argument on an internet forum with some people who won't even tell us their real names? Of course! If this involves considerable expense, time and trouble for you then that makes it all the more mandatory! ( I am kidding buddy, really I agree with your point) Can we all just let this mission/building thing rest for a while?

I thought we had it resting 6 feet down, till Horse chimes in I do agree though this one has been beaten way too much. (the mission not the horse )

 

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[Cubfan64]

I thought we had it resting 6 feet down, till Horse chimes in I do agree though this one has been beaten way too much. (the mission not the horse )

How anyone can say with a straight face that the 2 buildings and background landscape in the old photo posted by NP and the new new photos posted by you Somero are NOT the same is completely beyond me. I was mistaken when I said there was only one person who thought they were different - guess there are two.

Like I said before, you want to have a discussion and propose that there was a mission site at the Burns Ranch, by all means go for it but don't use an incorrect photo as part of the proof - it only takes away credibility from the argument.

To be clear, I don't care who took the photo, how old it is, who it got passed along to or any of that, what's absolutely 100% clear is that SOMEONE made a mistake somewhere along the lines when they said it was taken at the Burns Ranch. I went to the Burns Ranch area a few weeks ago in an attempt to look for any landscape background that came close to matching what was in that photo posted by NP - after 1/2 day of wandering around amongst all the litter and stuff out there, I can say with 100% certainty that there is NO landscape that matches up to the one shown behind the building in the photo by NP anywhere in the vicinity. Of course looking at Somero's photo I can see why that is since the landscape behind the building matches exactly perfectly in his.

I'm with Somero in saying I thought this was an already settled discussion and fact - only one person dug it back up and pushed it back into the forefront for some reason.

 

[Not Peralta]

SHAME< SHAME< SHAME
You few went through so much trying to impress others, and discredit me, with your wit.
You know who you are and what you did.
You can PM me and apologize in private, or do it on the thread if you want everyone to know what you did.
Again, you know who you are and what you did.
Time is short. Skip the
NP

Let me be perfectly clear about something, I am not talking about the mission in the above statement,
Joe wanted to know if I was talking about the mission, no , it has nothing to do with it. thank you. np

 

[Not Peralta]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stevendkeller/5812578149/in/photostream/ (Click on the red links for more pictures)

Concrete structure that was a school and possibly a community meeting place. Do I really have to go and take pictures and make a video and talk with the local historian on video to set the record straight. Should I also take a couple members from T-net and have them sign affidavits as to the authenticity of the road trip.

Who is more apt to be mislead, the person taking somebody's "word" as fact or somebody who does a little research into the story to get the facts?

I did not leave, one thing I have always discussed as a problem was my health. 7 or 8 years ago I had a stroke, recovery was long and hard, now im having another health problem that I have not even mentioned till now. a few months ago I had a heart attack, while being transported,i had heart failure, in the emergency room I had heart failure again, so they put me in a self induced coma for 36 hours to run test because they didn't know if my body could take the stress, I was in the ICU for a week then they decided to operate, I had bypass surgery, I stayed in the ICU for another 2 weeks, then I was sent home, after being home for 4 days I had to be taken back to the hospital for congestive heart failure,this whole experience took up an entire month, even then I was posting, now im spending more of my time recovering, I continue to share on both my threads,will do so as long as possible, thank you. np

e

 

[azdave35]

How anyone can say with a straight face that the 2 buildings and background landscape in the old photo posted by NP and the new new photos posted by you Somero are NOT the same is completely beyond me. I was mistaken when I said there was only one person who thought they were different - guess there are two.

Like I said before, you want to have a discussion and propose that there was a mission site at the Burns Ranch, by all means go for it but don't use an incorrect photo as part of the proof - it only takes away credibility from the argument.

To be clear, I don't care who took the photo, how old it is, who it got passed along to or any of that, what's absolutely 100% clear is that SOMEONE made a mistake somewhere along the lines when they said it was taken at the Burns Ranch. I went to the Burns Ranch area a few weeks ago in an attempt to look for any landscape background that came close to matching what was in that photo posted by NP - after 1/2 day of wandering around amongst all the litter and stuff out there, I can say with 100% certainty that there is NO landscape that matches up to the one shown behind the building in the photo by NP anywhere in the vicinity. Of course looking at Somero's photo I can see why that is since the landscape behind the building matches exactly perfectly in his.

I'm with Somero in saying I thought this was an already settled discussion and fact - only one person dug it back up and pushed it back into the forefront for some reason.

the mission that is supposed to be at burns ranch isnt at the ranch....its a ways away from the ranch site....if you were trying to line that photo up with something at the ranch site you were in the wrong place

 

[Cubfan64]

the mission that is supposed to be at burns ranch isnt at the ranch....its a ways away from the ranch site....if you were trying to line that photo up with something at the ranch site you were in the wrong place

That's a shame then because I wasted 1/2 day then. Before I left for AZ I re-read parts of this thread and was led to believe by the person trying to convince that it was the site that all one had to do was go to the Burns Ranch site, walk around and look at the landscape to tell that it was identical to that posted in the photo.

I wish someone had posted coordinates or a map with an X as to the location the mission was supposed to be so those of us interested could have checked it out in person as was suggested we do.

Maybe later this year if I can make it back out again or perhaps next year I can find out where that real location is and check it out - until then, the only thing I can go by is NP and Somero's photo and I'm firmly convinced they are of the identical building and location.

What are your thoughts AZDave as to not only the mission possibly being in the Burns Ranch "area" as well as the photo NP posted claiming it was that building?

 

[azdave35]

burns ranch is in the bottom of a wash at the foot of ruby hill...it would be hard to see the outline of the mountains from there...the mission site is up out of the canyon up on a ridge down the road a piece....i've heard from a few different people that there was a mission at that location..but by the time it was shown to me it was already knocked down and dug up...all that remains now is a pretty good size hole..next time i'm out there i'll take the pic with me and see if it matches up

 

[Cubfan64]

burns ranch is in the bottom of a wash at the foot of ruby hill...it would be hard to see the outline of the mountains from there...the mission site is up out of the canyon up on a ridge down the road a piece....i've heard from a few different people that there was a mission at that location..but by the time it was shown to me it was already knocked down and dug up...all that remains now is a pretty good size hole..next time i'm out there i'll take the pic with me and see if it matches up

Thanks, that would be great. Yeah, I noticed I was down in a low section so I did climb up on some of the ridges around there so I could see the landscape - didn't see anything that looked like a match. I think someone else somewhere in this thread went to the location and posted some photos as well that showed there was no match, but NP I believe said one of them was a direct match.

Anything you can do photo/location wise would be welcome - you seem to know the area well and be pretty objective. Thanks

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

For a mission to be established, they needed a decent population of natives and a good supply of water......(River). To have the population they also needed fields where they could raise crops, to feed everyone. Those things leave archaeological evidence. Much in the way of supplies need to be hauled in to support the mission and it's construction.

The evidence for this particular "mission" was created out of an existing building nowhere near Burns Ranch or the Superstitions. Someone, at some time, tried to manufacture a new story out of old rumors.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

All,

For a mission to be established, they needed a decent population of natives and a good supply of water......(River). To have the population they also needed fields where they could raise crops, to feed everyone. Those things leave archaeological evidence. Much in the way of supplies need to be hauled in to support the mission and it's construction.

The evidence for this particular "mission" was created out of an existing building nowhere near Burns Ranch or the Superstitions. Someone, at some time, tried to manufacture a new story out of old rumors.

Joe Ribaudo

While I do not believe there was a mission on the Burns ranch, I would only point out that we do not know the locations of all the missions of record. Where is the Reyes mission for instance, and what did it have for a water source? The visita at Quiviri is not pinpointed either despite plenty of archaeological evidence along the old river valley. Even the original Tumacacori mission site location has been debated for a long time. So while you are correct that we should find archaeological evidence where missions were located, on the other hand our historians have not been able to pinpoint every recorded mission or visita.

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Not Peralta - sorry to hear that you have had serious health problems. I hope that you are solidly on the road to full recovery and will not see any relapse or further problems with your health.

 

[cactusjumper]

While I do not believe there was a mission on the Burns ranch, I would only point out that we do not know the locations of all the missions of record. Where is the Reyes mission for instance, and what did it have for a water source? The visita at Quiviri is not pinpointed either despite plenty of archaeological evidence along the old river valley. Even the original Tumacacori mission site location has been debated for a long time. So while you are correct that we should find archaeological evidence where missions were located, on the other hand our historians have not been able to pinpoint every recorded mission or visita.

Oroblanco

Roy,

This seems to be a good bet for the location of missions at Quiviri.

Circular Pueblo - Salinas Pueblo Missions National Monument (U.S. National Park Service)

I still don't see Burns Ranch as a possible location for a mission. As a visita, it is much too far from the nearest mission, as well as being too dangerous for visiting. It's really all about known history for me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Not Peralta]

ALL
I am tired of hearing you say some one tried to manufacture a new story, I am sorry you never heard of the mission, I am sorry you don't have the info in your library, I am sorry it doesn't fit with any of your theory's , not every thing is written down, there was a native population there at one time, and there was more than sufficient water at the site and near the site, some of the coldest water around the area is located there, I am sorry there was a dios rock located at the site indicating the mission, I am sorry there are several markers indicating the mission, I am sorry that the mission has been talked about in a book, especially by some one as creditable as yourself , and whom I am sure had more time in the mnts and area than you, I am sorry you did not believe one of your guest speakers when they talked about it,and I am sorry that so many other people have heard of the mission, and I am really sorry for you, especially when you talked so bad about some one you did not know. I will say this again its your loss,not mine, I am years ahead of this clue.NP

 

[cactusjumper]

ALL
I am tired of hearing you say some one tried to manufacture a new story, I am sorry you never heard of the mission, I am sorry you don't have the info in your library, I am sorry it doesn't fit with any of your theory's , not every thing is written down, there was a native population there at one time, and there was more than sufficient water at the site and near the site, some of the coldest water around the area is located there, I am sorry there was a dios rock located at the site indicating the mission, I am sorry there are several markers indicating the mission, I am sorry that the mission has been talked about in a book, especially by some one as creditable as yourself , and whom I am sure had more time in the mnts and area than you, I am sorry you did not believe one of your guest speakers when they talked about it,and I am sorry that so many other people have heard of the mission, and I am really sorry for you, especially when you talked so bad about some one you did not know. I will say this again its your loss,not mine, I am years ahead of this clue.NP

N.P.,

No need to be sorry. Your story gave us a lot to talk about. Just because some of us have doubts, does not have any bearing on what you believe to be "fact". Coming back and arguing the validity of the two pictures being different buildings, will not help your case.

I hope your recovery will be swift and trouble-free.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Not Peralta]

Joe, have a nice day.NP

 

[Somero]

ALL
I am tired of hearing you say some one tried to manufacture a new story, I am sorry you never heard of the mission, I am sorry you don't have the info in your library, I am sorry it doesn't fit with any of your theory's , not every thing is written down, there was a native population there at one time, and there was more than sufficient water at the site and near the site, some of the coldest water around the area is located there, I am sorry there was a dios rock located at the site indicating the mission, I am sorry there are several markers indicating the mission, I am sorry that the mission has been talked about in a book, especially by some one as creditable as yourself , and whom I am sure had more time in the mnts and area than you, I am sorry you did not believe one of your guest speakers when they talked about it,and I am sorry that so many other people have heard of the mission, and I am really sorry for you, especially when you talked so bad about some one you did not know. I will say this again its your loss,not mine, I am years ahead of this clue.NP

NP I do hope your health is on the mend.

I'm with Cubfan about discussing a possible mission site, lets just leave the picture out of it. IF there was a mission in that area why are there no records of it? Perhaps the structure in question could have been somebody's homestead prior to the ranch.

 

[Azquester]

This is not true about no History of a Burns Ranch mission. There were Mission's established that were not supposed to be recorded because of the ties to Mining and Slavery.

The Mission of Ciru was established as a mining mission at the base of the Santa Catalina Mountain Range and was destroyed by an Indian uprising with only the ruins and Oral History of it's existence. They had a Mission called "Catarina" in present day Catalina but Ciru was no where near any river nor was Catarina. The Canada Del Oro wash is a dry wash so Missions were established on dry or semi dry streams or even like in the case of Ciru which was built at the base of a Mountain Range very similar to the Superstition Range. I believe Donald Page discovered some sort of Arrastra's and Smelting evidence near or in the destroyed ruins of the Ciru compound.

I'll see if I have the papers from his Archeological excavation and post them.

I have them at my house and I'm at work now so later.

I believe these Mission's were the smoking gun for Jesuit Witches that used the slaves to carve the original Royal Campsites Kenworthy talks about in his book while mining and later they built small Missions near the protection of those high rocky campsites in case of a slave revolt which in the case of Ciru it happened and they were all massacred just like the Superstition Massacre.

It could be the Mission at Burns was one of those Mission's that the Spaniard's were going towards when the Massacre occurred in Massacre Canyon. Not the much of a stretch.

 

[markmar]

Hi all

I don't care if that mission photo was took close to Burns ranch or anywhere else in Arizona , but a 19th century map which Wayne ( Somehiker ) have posted here , shows the Superstitions south end valley like " mission valley " . Look at the map and see how the valley starts between Verde river and Four Peaks mountain , and is about at 30% the distance between Salt river and Gila river . That shows how the old Indian trail is not what is today Apache trail and ( this has not relation with the mission but I want to say it ) the trail in the map fits with one Dutchman clues : ' The old Indian trail leads you there " ( close to the mine ) .



Maybe the author of this old map have seen the mission

 

[Not Peralta]

Heres a picture of the dios rock found by the mission site, on the rock if you follow the direction line it takes you right to the water source for the mission, there are siver and gold mines , one sealed mine, all within 100to 150 yards from the water source which is only only 50 to 75 yards from the site. np

 

[i am the horse]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stevendkeller/5812578149/in/photostream/ (Click on the red links for more pictures)

Concrete structure that was a school and possibly a community meeting place. Do I really have to go and take pictures and make a video and talk with the local historian on video to set the record straight. Should I also take a couple members from T-net and have them sign affidavits as to the authenticity of the road trip.

Who is more apt to be mislead, the person taking somebody's "word" as fact or somebody who does a little research into the story to get the facts?

does that really look like a setting for a school built in the 1900's? longfellow school was built in clifton in 1902. i just cant believe people would buy the story that it was a school.so yeah take your road trip and post the pics.