Do the Stone Tablets lead to somewhere OTHER than the Superstition Mtns?

[cactusjumper]

Howdy Wrmickel1,

Google Earth works just fine, in fact it is the best tool out there for serious treasure hunters, and is widely used by all boots on the ground treasure hunters. It is just a shame that most people don't know how to use it, and claim to find things that are really not there. It has it's limitations, yet in the right hands, it can reveal things that boots on the ground can't.

The same applies to a boots on the ground search. Many present their actual pictures taken from there trips into the mountains, and are no different than most Google Earth images. In other words what they claim is in the picture sometimes is just as wild, and only they can see it. Just as many Priests are found by Google Earth, as they are by boots on the ground, and yet no one has posted the real Priest.

Google Earth is not the problem, neither are the boots on the ground. In my opinion, the knife does not point to the sky line, nor does it point north.

Ouinoa, there in no A on the handle, it is a D for "derecha", or right. In my opinion, the knife points to a trail, and is telling you to cut to the right when you get to the fork.

Homar

Homar,

I know what you mean. I can count myself as one of those guys with too much imagination while working in the mountains. For years I thought I had found a priest. He was just above my Stone Map Trail, and looking right down on some modern-day claim markers. Foolish me!



Take care,

Crazy Old Joe

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Family Maps of Hinds County, Mississippi, Deluxe Edition - Grab it through Amazon!

[coazon de oro]

You're probably right Coazon, It's does look more like a D on some of the other stone pictures. The map I was looking at was probably not drawn exact. It looked like the D had short legs. D can also mean Daleth or pathway or doorway. See that arrow guard on the handle above it? It does point right, or it points to the hash mark on the trail/line that ends up inside the heart. So is that an omega symbol there in the heart right below the triangle ending point or is there another thing it's called (that short line with the single hump in the middle of it)?

Howdy Quinoa,

I don't know how you can come up with Daleth, or pathway, or doorway from a D on a map that is in the Spanish language, but to each his own.

Omega seems to be the most popular, while others refer to it by other names. You can decide to call it what you may, but "short line with a single hump in the middle of it" sounds pruty good.

Homar

 

[somehiker]

We are all members of the same club Joe.
In fact, I have been able to find and "see" not just one, but two "priests" in my "stone map area".
And I have been able to take others out there, so that they could also see, as well as post photos from my camera.
Perhaps Homar can do the same with HIS real priest.
Homar believes the symbol on the handle of the "knife", which is actually a dagger which cuts both ways (having two edges), is a "D" for "Derecha".
Perhaps such a "D", carved the way it is on the stone, actually stands for Doble or Duplicar (double or x2 in Spanish).



Since one of the priests, the one with the pointy hat, also happens to be the point of the dagger in my area, "Duplicar" works well for me.

Interestingly though, one DOES also have to go up and over to the right a short distance from the symbol, and to where "pointy hat" is pointing, in order to arrive at a heart shaped rock formation large enough to be visible on G/E as well.
But there is also a heart visible on GE where the other priest is pointing HIS cross as well....a "Doble" (Spanish) heart in other words.....



There are two more though, and four hearts do make a nice hand do they not ?

Ain't this fun

 

[coazon de oro]

We are all members of the same club Joe.
In fact, I have been able to find and "see" not just one, but two "priests" in my "stone map area".
And I have been able to take others out there, so that they could also see, as well as post photos from my camera.
Perhaps Homar can do the same with HIS real priest.
Homar believes the symbol on the handle of the "knife", which is actually a dagger which cuts both ways (having two edges), is a "D" for "Derecha".
Perhaps such a "D", carved the way it is on the stone, actually stands for Doble or Duplicar (double or x2 in Spanish).

View attachment 1057358

Since one of the priests, the one with the pointy hat, also happens to be the point of the dagger in my area, "Duplicar" works well for me.

Interestingly though, one DOES also have to go up and over to the right a short distance from the symbol, and to where "pointy hat" is pointing, in order to arrive at a heart shaped rock formation large enough to be visible on G/E as well.
But there is also a heart visible on GE where the other priest is pointing HIS cross as well....a "Doble" (Spanish) heart in other words.....

View attachment 1057360

There are two more though, and four hearts do make a nice hand do they not ?

Ain't this fun

Howdy Wayne,

I too believe it looks more like a dagger, but since wrmickel1 was calling it a knife, I went with that. A dagger does cut both ways, and it is still my opinion that the D indicates it cuts to the right as it shows. Doble, and Duplicar would be in the language used on the stones, but you are not supposed to make them fit. When you buy hiking boots, you choose the ones that fit, you don't make them fit. If you have to make them fit, you can't get very far with those boots.

Four hearts do make a nice hand, and there happen to be four hearts. You will find two on the Priest stone, one on a trail stone, and the heart stone it's self, but unfortunately we are not playing poker here.

I could show a google image of the Priest, or I could also show you a clear picture of him from below, but someone could recognize the area, and I do not want to take that chance. I have seen it happen many times where an image or picture is shown, and someone recognizes the place. I have never steered you wrong Wayne, he is out there, no mistake about it.

Homar

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy:

Semantics aside, we can argue the meaning of Grace's statement till the cows come home I suppose.
But just as I consider a replica, or even a duplicate, to be much closer in all aspects to the original, I would never describe a map copied (drawn or painted) on a piece of cloth as being "perfect" unless it was a copy of another 2D map. It would also have to show every detail found on the original, including the lines and words found on the edges and reverse sides and be the same size. This I believe, is why she was referring to the size of the cloth background as about the size of a pillow case. Grace is also clear in that they were shown the replicas by Travis himself, which obviously means Travis was in possession of at least one set of duplicates of Maps 2 and 3.
It is possible to purchase or build replicas of many things. Sometimes they are called 3/4 scale replicas as are some kit planes for example, but no-one considers them "perfect" replicas, nor would consider a photograph, drawing or painting of the original as being perfect.

None of the conversations and correspondence between the Tumlinson family and Gary, Azmula, or Mike alluded to the existence of any kind of cloth map.
Instead at least one referred to a piece of paper, not even a full "map" of any kind, which they said Travis referred to while carving stones in the front yard of his sister's house in Texas. Do you not think he would have used the "cloth map", if he had one, rather than this piece of paper ?


from Azmula's article:

"The "stone maps" supposedly "found" in
Arizona were, in fact, created in your Grandma
Tumlinson's yard in Cuero by her brother, your
Great Uncle Travis Tumlinson. (deleted by author)
herself watched him make them, copying symbols
from a piece of paper of unknown origin. Only the
"stones" came from Arizona and he picked them up
off the roadside there on a return trip from Oregon."

One relative had also said that stone (map?) was never taken away from the house in Cuero by Travis, although we have multiple and detailed testimonies from close friends in Oregon that claim otherwise. And now we have at least one set of Tumlinson replicas as well.....

Well Wayne the key to the point is right in what Grace wrote - "a perfect replica of maps on a white cloth .." notice she said a replica of MAPS and not a replica of STONES. Are you taking Azmula's contentions in the article, as solid proof that the cloth map did not exist prior to the stone version? Thanks in advance;

Quinoa wrote

But it is still entertaining. I guess it's the legend everyone is after. Fame

Not all of us amigo - in fact I am pretty sure that quite a few Dutch hunters would hardly tell a soul if they found riches. Especially since the invention of the Wilderness Area.

Please do continue all, sorry for the interruption.
Oroblanco

 

[somehiker]

"Well Wayne the key to the point is right in what Grace wrote - "a perfect replica of maps on a white cloth .." notice she said a replica of MAPS and not a replica of STONES. Are you taking Azmula's contentions in the article, as solid proof that the cloth map did not exist prior to the stone version? Thanks in advance;"


Roy:







As you can see......

Considering the fact that the entire subject is based on a collection of stones which many have identified and referred to as "maps" and "map", as both Bernice McGee and Grace Mitchell have many times in their letters to each other, I cannot see any reason to introduce what you refer to as a "cloth map" to the history surrounding the stones and those directly involved.

Azmula's two articles, which included many e-mails from Tumlinson family descendants, do not make mention of either "cloth map" or "maps on cloth".

Regards:SH.

 

[sailaway]

Oro since you seem to be one of the few that are intrigued with the connection of Santa Fe, NM. and Pedro de Peralta, if a person knew the scale of the map used when the stones were carved, then placed the town of Santa Fe pinned on the Flank of the horse so it rotated on the hole named Pedro in the flank of the Cobollo de Santa Fe you could rotate the map to line up features of the Map and the stone and it would "Pin Point" the Mines?

 

[somehiker]

Howdy Wayne,

I too believe it looks more like a dagger, but since wrmickel1 was calling it a knife, I went with that. A dagger does cut both ways, and it is still my opinion that the D indicates it cuts to the right as it shows. Doble, and Duplicar would be in the language used on the stones, but you are not supposed to make them fit. When you buy hiking boots, you choose the ones that fit, you don't make them fit. If you have to make them fit, you can't get very far with those boots.

Four hearts do make a nice hand, and there happen to be four hearts. You will find two on the Priest stone, one on a trail stone, and the heart stone it's self, but unfortunately we are not playing poker here.

I could show a google image of the Priest, or I could also show you a clear picture of him from below, but someone could recognize the area, and I do not want to take that chance. I have seen it happen many times where an image or picture is shown, and someone recognizes the place. I have never steered you wrong Wayne, he is out there, no mistake about it.

Homar

Well Homar, while it's true that WE are not playing cards, those who made the stones may have from time to time. Even though they were discouraged from doing so. And I wonder which card would have been their favorite ? Probably not the King or Queen, although some decks did not have a Queen card back then.
Some time ago when we were discussing the observations made by various experts about the iconography of the stones, where they had claimed that hearts, horses and hats such as those on the stones did not exist in that form in earlier times, I posted pictures of 16th and 17th century Jesuit trade rings with the same heart upon them. Similar horses and hats are easy to find as well.
There are other examples as well, with many such hearts shown on period playing cards, including "special decks" with political themes.
eg: Politics, Literary Culture, & Theatrical Media in London: 1625-1725 | The Exclusion Crisis





Without seeing it I cannot judge your Priest. Only those I have found out there, which are not recognizable as such on GE.
But I can say that the larger and lower one has something which no other "priest" in those mountains could possibly have...

 

[deducer]

Fascinating!

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro since you seem to be one of the few that are intrigued with the connection of Santa Fe, NM. and Pedro de Peralta, if a person knew the scale of the map used when the stones were carved, then placed the town of Santa Fe pinned on the Flank of the horse so it rotated on the hole named Pedro in the flank of the Cobollo de Santa Fe you could rotate the map to line up features of the Map and the stone and it would "Pin Point" the Mines?

If the Horse is actually a map then your proposal sounds quite possible.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[coazon de oro]

Well Homar, while it's true that WE are not playing cards, those who made the stones may have from time to time. Even though they were discouraged from doing so. And I wonder which card would have been their favorite ? Probably not the King or Queen, although some decks did not have a Queen card back then.
Some time ago when we were discussing the observations made by various experts about the iconography of the stones, where they had claimed that hearts, horses and hats such as those on the stones did not exist in that form in earlier times, I posted pictures of 16th and 17th century Jesuit trade rings with the same heart upon them. Similar horses and hats are easy to find as well.
There are other examples as well, with many such hearts shown on period playing cards, including "special decks" with political themes.
eg: Politics, Literary Culture, & Theatrical Media in London: 1625-1725 | The Exclusion Crisis

View attachment 1058055

View attachment 1058056

Without seeing it I cannot judge your Priest. Only those I have found out there, which are not recognizable as such on GE.
But I can say that the larger and lower one has something which no other "priest" in those mountains could possibly have...

Howdy Wayne,

I seem to be getting mixed signals here, and would like to know what you really believe, in order give you a better response. On some posts you are agreeing with Azmula's assumptions, that Travis Tumlinson carved the stones, and here you seem to assume that the Jesuits carved them?

Homar

 

[somehiker]

Howdy Wayne,

I seem to be getting mixed signals here, and would like to know what you really believe, in order give you a better response. On some posts you are agreeing with Azmula's assumptions, that Travis Tumlinson carved the stones, and here you seem to assume that the Jesuits carved them?

Homar

While I believe Azmula has made a number of valid observations, I do not agree with his theory of the stones as having been flooring in any church, or that T.T. fabricated any of the original stones. I do believe he made one set of copies, primarily because of his concerns about the originals, and that the originals may still remain with a member of the family. I suspect the copies were the set sold to Mitchell by Aileen Tumlinson after Travis' death. If the book which Janie Tumlinson mentioned is ever published, and/or Travis' manuscript shared, we may have the answers to this and other questions. As for Jesuit involvement, there are a number of clues, on the stones themselves as well as historical and in the field, which point at least a circumstantial finger in their direction.

Some of your confusion, and of others perhaps, may be due to the fact that I frequently provide links to, or give examples of, other evidence, ideas and theories, although they often do not support my own.

Regards:SH.

 

[coazon de oro]

While I believe Azmula has made a number of valid observations, I do not agree with his theory of the stones as having been flooring in any church, or that T.T. fabricated any of the original stones. I do believe he made one set of copies, primarily because of his concerns about the originals, and that the originals may still remain with a member of the family. I suspect the copies were the set sold to Mitchell by Aileen Tumlinson after Travis' death. If the book which Janie Tumlinson mentioned is ever published, and/or Travis' manuscript shared, we may have the answers to this and other questions. As for Jesuit involvement, there are a number of clues, on the stones themselves as well as historical and in the field, which point at least a circumstantial finger in their direction.

Some of your confusion, and of others perhaps, may be due to the fact that I frequently provide links to, or give examples of, other evidence, ideas and theories, although they often do not support my own.

Regards:SH.

Howdy Wayne,

I know how hard it is to get over the idea's of others. Seems like they know what they're talking about, until you learn different. What seems like valid observations, some times turn to be just assumptions. Kind of like Gary's letter comparisons pointing to Travis making the P/H stone. He failed to see that Travis was not even capable of doing so for lack of knowledge of the Spanish language.

Azmula's observations also fall short, as many others observations, including Mr. Bob C., and Tom K. So when you have all these "very knowledgeable" Dutch hunters making statements, it is hard to shake that idea until you find out different.

Then you have to contend with all the fake signs put up by other Dutch hunters to throw others off. Circumstantial evidence can also get in the way when it is based on some of these "valid observations", or fake signs. I will have to find a post you sent me once, I don't remember on which site it was, but I'll get back with you with a thought provoking fact.

There is also something under my Priest that is not under any other Priest.

Homar

 

[somehiker]

Homar:

I can't say as I have much trouble getting over any ideas other's may express. I do not agree with your assertion that Travis, having been born and raised in Cuero, Texas, and supervising a fruit packing facility and migrant camp would have left him ignorant of the Spanish language though. I will also continue to maintain that if he had carved the stones, he also could have made use of a common English-Spanish dictionary to ensure the spelling was correct. I'm sure he would have had one at his disposal, or could have easily consulted a spanish speaking friend or co-worker at the time.

Sorry, but I'm out of time this morning. Gotta hit the road.

Wayne

 

[cactusjumper]

All of the people that Homar mentions have expressed their opinions and offered their reasons for reaching those opinions.

Most who come with their "opinions" offer no cogent reasoning nor clear pictures. I will, once again, bring Topographic maps to this years Rendezvous to explain my theory and reasoning. If anyone has a better, more accurate, solution, I will be happy to compare their answer with the Stone Maps.......with an open and fair mind.

As for Garry, he has done his research and offered the results for all of us to pick apart. Homar's "proof" is,
"There is also something under my Priest that is not under any other Priest." So far, as far as I know, that is his best evidence to date.

It seems to me, that if you are going to denigrate someone else's work, you should at least provide something of equal value or better.

Hope to see most of you at the Rendezvous next month.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Not Peralta]

coazon de oro, show some proof of your priest , you have seen our pictures , show us your proof, just because you say something is correct does not make it so, SHOW SOME PROOF OF YOUR CLAIMS. have someand relax, np

 

[markmar]

Nice cards Wayne . Reminds to me carefreely years . I have played with this type of cards many times , in a specific European region , about 35 years ago . I feel good with this remembrance . Thanks for sharing it .

 

[Not Peralta]

heres my priest , the whole world can view it for what it is , theres many secrets under this hat, and I don't care if the whole world see's it, that's why it's posted here, are you not here to share with others
or what is your reasoning.np

 

[hooch]

Looks more like a pile of doody with a little curl at the end up top

 

[Not Peralta]

hooch, glad to see an expert weigh in such subjects, it must have been real hard to type all that wisdom. np