Do the Stone Tablets lead to somewhere OTHER than the Superstition Mtns?

[deducer]

deducer,

Not really how I meant it. Had more to do with my mental abilities, which are failing quickly, than yours. No offense meant.

Rational reasoning........I had no idea it was required in these conversations.

Take care,

Joe

No offense taken, Joe.

Why wouldn't you want rational reasoning behind any idea, suggestion or theory put forth in regard to the Stone Maps? Would you rather have endless GE interpretations or worst, blindbowman's grandiose discourses?

 

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[Springfield]

Good question.
But how WOULD one leave something for future use by those within a special group, yet mark it in such ways that only they would be able to recognize it as genuine and understand everything written upon it....no matter how long it might take ?
I'm not hinting they were Jesuit. It could have been anyone with a religious axe to grind.

Someone would need maps to lead them to the buried stones, crosses and hearts - which they would then need to arrive at whatever end there might be. Sounds like poor logistics, and risky too. What happened to the first set of maps?

 

[cactusjumper]

No offense taken, Joe.

Why wouldn't you want rational reasoning behind any idea, suggestion or theory put forth in regard to the Stone Maps? Would you rather have endless GE interpretations or worst, blindbowman's grandiose discourses?

deducer,

Don't believe I said anything like that, but who knows?

Good luck,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Someone would need maps to lead them to the buried stones, crosses and hearts - which they would then need to arrive at whatever end there might be. Sounds like poor logistics, and risky too. What happened to the first set of maps?

Not necessarily poor logistics, but rather Murphy's Law.
Perhaps a raid by hostiles on a base camp, whereby the group's animals were taken, along with whatever else could be snatched in the meley.
This may have included the crosses and LH, if they were in saddle bags on or near the animals at the time of the raid.
Such a situation might necessitate the caching of the larger and heavier stones, with either a simple map or set of written instructions to aid in recovering the larger stones and anything else the group was forced to leave behind.I believe this was what TT used to locate the stones at QC.

 

[Oroblanco]

Deducer wrote

Wouldn’t it be logical to look in the Supes considering all the discoveries were made there? The Stone Maps were found below QC, the stone crosses on the SE corner of Tortilla, and the CP paper not far from there. There have been non-GE solutions presented forth in this forum and others, and it is to those that I have paid careful attention. Those who peruse threads in a thorough manner, especially in the archive, will not be disappointed.

At one time, I too referred to the Stone Maps as the PSMs because everyone else did so, but when I did more research, I came to the conclusion that the Peraltas had nothing to do with it, and so began to refer to them only as the Stone Maps. As to the question of authorship, I will use the H/P stone as an example and ask you to ponder the fact that there is a speaking horse on one side, and a priest with no legs on the other, speaking of going 18 places which is a paradox. Who would go to such extent as to engage in both paradoxical abstract and anthropomorphic design when designing a treasure map? Would this not suggest an author with advanced faculties? I want to point out that neither DeGrazia or Tumlinson created art that had abstract, paradoxical or anthropomorphic aspects to them. When considering means, motive, and ability as far as the Stone Maps, only one party passes the test, and to me, does so very convincingly.

And as far as 'SANTAFE,' when one considers the placement and context of the word wherever it has been used (SM, the descriptive cross, and the CP) in addition to very peculiar and slight features present in the word itself, only apparent upon close examination, one realizes that the word does not refer to Santa Fe, NM.

Isn't that making an assumption that the horse is speaking? The words are there, and the image of the horse so it seems logical BUT... could be mistaken. I don't think this would qualify as an anthropomorphic figure, but that is just an opinion. Tumlinson did some very nice stone carvings, like the ship, the treasure chest etc so the horse and priest are actually less complex.

As to the Santa Fe, I had simply said that it is the only item on the maps which COULD have a tie as a geographic name. It could mean "holy faith" too, or it could have a double meaning. After all, "north of the river" was historically used to refer to New Mexico, with the Rio Grande being "The" river being referred to. As far as I can see, we can not rule OUT New Mexico as the true location that the stone maps are meant to apply. Besides, in New Mexico we have an even older history than in AZ, and the Peralta name is quite prominent, had a governor with that name. That could mean something if the name Peralta stones was actually correct. Who would take the position that it is impossible that a hidden treasure could exist in New Mexico, that may have stone maps associated with it?

As to the finds around and in the Superstitions - first point, the stones were not found IN the Superstitions and not all that close either, but south of the range. At least according to the original tale. The stone crosses are linked to a person with a very questionable history (convicted scam artist) which does not bode well to authenticate what he claims he found. The other artifacts have even less documentation - so I am not including them with the stone maps, for they may have nothing to do with them at all. Just because one finds a map NEAR a mountain range does not automatically mean that map MUST go to that mountain range. There are many other mountains in the area including at least two that will fit the maps pretty well. I don't expect to change your mind but consider this, what if we are making the wrong assumption to link them to the Superstitions? Wouldn't that help explain why so many people could have used these stone maps so un-successfully?

As to Frank having found some placer gold - I do not know if that is what the maps were supposed to lead to or not, tend to think not however for Frank made no mention of any sign of ancient mining at the site, just that there was gold to be found which could be just a happy coincidence. But who knows? Perhaps that is the answer and all the arguing and theorizing is wrong? At least Sarge had some gold to show for his efforts which is more than many of the Google Earth theorists have shown.

Not Peralta - you posted:


I have a few questions about this particular photo. Who or whom do you believe created those markings? How old would you estimate them to be? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Not Peralta]

Oroblanco, have some, what questions do you have, because I do have the answers on this map, at least all I could find,and figure out, you ask me , I will pm the answer gladly. np

 

[deducer]

Isn't that making an assumption that the horse is speaking? The words are there, and the image of the horse so it seems logical BUT... could be mistaken. I don't think this would qualify as an anthropomorphic figure, but that is just an opinion. Tumlinson did some very nice stone carvings, like the ship, the treasure chest etc so the horse and priest are actually less complex.

Roy, if I may ask you to think about the phrase on the horse side of the stone: “YO PASTO AL NORTE DEL RIO” the imperative words being “YO PASTO” or “I pasture/I graze.” Just who is “I”? Surely not the intended reader of the map or the mapmaker in that neither would be expected to “graze” north of the river and expect any result other than gastronomical discomfort?

Tumlinson may have carved more intricate figures, but he possessed no faculties for abstract design which is the art of imaging what is not there, a crucial concept that those seeking faith need to grasp. And this seems to be a central theme running through the Santafe artifacts.

As to the Santa Fe, I had simply said that it is the only item on the maps which COULD have a tie as a geographic name. It could mean "holy faith" too, or it could have a double meaning. After all, "north of the river" was historically used to refer to New Mexico, with the Rio Grande being "The" river being referred to. As far as I can see, we can not rule OUT New Mexico as the true location that the stone maps are meant to apply. Besides, in New Mexico we have an even older history than in AZ, and the Peralta name is quite prominent, had a governor with that name. That could mean something if the name Peralta stones was actually correct. Who would take the position that it is impossible that a hidden treasure could exist in New Mexico, that may have stone maps associated with it?

Anyone heading towards Santa Fe, historically speaking, as you put it, would have most certainly taken the El Camino Real which, near the end, runs in close parallel to the Rio Grande, and so it would not be quite accurate to refer to Santa Fe as being “north of the river,” as much as “east of the river.” I have, myself, ruled out New Mexico for reasons related to this and my answers below.

As to the finds around and in the Superstitions - first point, the stones were not found IN the Superstitions and not all that close either, but south of the range. At least according to the original tale. The stone crosses are linked to a person with a very questionable history (convicted scam artist) which does not bode well to authenticate what he claims he found. The other artifacts have even less documentation - so I am not including them with the stone maps, for they may have nothing to do with them at all. Just because one finds a map NEAR a mountain range does not automatically mean that map MUST go to that mountain range. There are many other mountains in the area including at least two that will fit the maps pretty well. I don't expect to change your mind but consider this, what if we are making the wrong assumption to link them to the Superstitions? Wouldn't that help explain why so many people could have used these stone maps so un-successfully?

If you have been to QC as I have, and particularly to that place, you would see that while that location is technically not in the Supes, it can only be, and was a strategic waypoint for those heading towards the Supes, or going through it, in that it provided a natural defensive perimeter with water nearby and a natural bluff that served as a northeast lookout point. There is nothing else remotely close to serve as a end point destination, going in that direction.

While the finders of some of the artifacts could be considered con men, that does not affect the authenticity of the artifacts that were found, nor where they were found. The question has repeatedly been asked of those who cast doubt merely because of the nature of the finders, but have never answered satisfactory: Why would any of those con men try to relate their “find” to another existing artifact? Why not make their own artifact a standalone, with a simple “X” marks the spot? Why risk using the word “Santafe” to refer to a scam taking place in Arizona? We do not have any documentation at all of either Tumlinson or Bilbrey spending any time in New Mexico, much less the city of Santa Fe, so why would they go to such extent? It is in the nature of con artists to take shortcuts- they would not be con artists otherwise, and everything about the Stone Maps and related artifacts does not indicate any sort of simplicity, or “shortcuts.”

IMO, a crucial aspect of solving the Stone Maps is knowing the scale to which each map applies, and once you discover that, many of the pieces fall into place pretty quick. Many don’t bother with this, and so end up being “unsuccessful.”

And I would advise you not to dismiss the CP so quickly. Just because it has next to no documentation doesn’t lessen its importance. As a matter of fact, I think it a key element of the Santafe artifacts.

 

[Springfield]

Not necessarily poor logistics, but rather Murphy's Law.
Perhaps a raid by hostiles on a base camp, whereby the group's animals were taken, along with whatever else could be snatched in the meley.
This may have included the crosses and LH, if they were in saddle bags on or near the animals at the time of the raid.
Such a situation might necessitate the caching of the larger and heavier stones, with either a simple map or set of written instructions to aid in recovering the larger stones and anything else the group was forced to leave behind.I believe this was what TT used to locate the stones at QC.

Lots of 'perhaps', 'may have', 'might' and 'I believe' in that mix. Of course, you might be right on target as all theories are possible without a known answer. Oops ... there's that 'might' again.

 

[Springfield]

Oroblanco, that was a very rational post (#2411). When you approach a subject like this without a predetermined outcome, you tend to avoid trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

If these carved stones are 'genuine' (which I'm certainly not convinced of), it's difficult to ignore the fact that some of the details you mentioned certainly seem more at home in NM than in AZ. I believe folks will find 'north of the river' certainly could refer to north of El Paso, where the Rio Grande not only generally changes its direction of flow, but represents the historic gateway into North America. With just a minor time investment, I showed on a previous ignored post a very nice cartographic match between lines on the carved stone and the flow patterns of the Rios Grande and Gila, not to mention bullseye locations at that overlay scale of at least two well-known if not legendary 'treasure' waypoints - Willie's Cave in the Caballos and Map Cave near the Santa Rita mines. The 'Santa Fe' reference is obvious and the 'Peralta' idea? Pedro and Miguel Peralta (two of the only three significant historical NM Peraltas) were two Spanish soldiers killed in the 1680 Rebellion. By the way, just a day or two ago, I also posted a photo of a legendary pointy landmark above the Santa Rita mines closely associated with the Church - a shamed nun ('witch'?).

That said, am I lobbying for a NM solution? Not really, I don't really have time for a new project - although, now that I think about it, it's tempting to look at the maps again. Hell, 60 or 70 years of trying to make these things fit the Supes haven't exactly busted the doors down. Maybe uncle Tumlinson sent Travis on a wild goose chase back in the day.

 

[Oroblanco]

Deducer wrote

Roy, if I may ask you to think about the phrase on the horse side of the stone: "YO PASTO AL NORTE DEL RIO" the imperative words being "YO PASTO" or "I pasture/I graze." Just who is "I"? Surely not the intended reader of the map or the mapmaker in that neither would be expected to "graze" north of the river and expect any result other than gastronomical discomfort?

The inscription does not indicate which words are intended to be imperitive, however I presume the "I" referred to indicates the person or persons that wrote the words. I suspect the whole sentence is supposed to be an allegorical reference to proselytizing the Catholic faith, "spreading the gospel" so to speak, however oddly.
　

Deducer also wrote

Tumlinson may have carved more intricate figures, but he possessed no faculties for abstract design which is the art of imaging what is not there, a crucial concept that those seeking faith need to grasp. And this seems to be a central theme running through the Santafe artifacts.

I would not make that conclusion about Travis Tumlinson, simply do not have enough information to decide whether he did or did not have the mental faculties involving imaging what is not there. Nor for that matter if that is a central theme of the stone maps, which may or may not be true. Doesn't a carving of a treasure chest, present also a mental image of what is not shown, the coins/treasure it contains, or a Spanish galleon, imply the rich treasure it would be carrying as cargo, that would be imaging what is not there?

Deducer also wrote

If you have been to QC as I have, and particularly to that place, you would see that while that location is technically not in the Supes, it can only be, and was a strategic waypoint for those heading towards the Supes, or going through it, in that it provided a natural defensive perimeter with water nearby and a natural bluff that served as a northeast lookout point. There is nothing else remotely close to serve as a end point destination, going in that direction.

Well yes I have been to Queen Creek, camped there a few nights a couple of years ago, but still do not think that location where the stones were found MUST link them to the Superstitions. Could be yes, and could be no.

Deducer also wrote

While the finders of some of the artifacts could be considered con men, that does not affect the authenticity of the artifacts that were found, nor where they were found. The question has repeatedly been asked of those who cast doubt merely because of the nature of the finders, but have never answered satisfactory: Why would any of those con men try to relate their "find" to another existing artifact? Why not make their own artifact a standalone, with a simple "X" marks the spot? Why risk using the word "Santafe" to refer to a scam taking place in Arizona? We do not have any documentation at all of either Tumlinson or Bilbrey spending any time in New Mexico, much less the city of Santa Fe, so why would they go to such extent? It is in the nature of con artists to take shortcuts- they would not be con artists otherwise, and everything about the Stone Maps and related artifacts does not indicate any sort of simplicity, or "shortcuts."

Hmm - I do not automatically dismiss anything based on the reputation of the finder(s), however have to disagree in part about con men habitually seeking short cuts. A look at Crazy Jake for example, would present a convicted con man capable of very complex and convincing frauds. The best con men do not ask you for your money, they get you to ask them to take it.
　

Deducer also wrote

IMO, a crucial aspect of solving the Stone Maps is knowing the scale to which each map applies, and once you discover that, many of the pieces fall into place pretty quick. Many don’t bother with this, and so end up being "unsuccessful."

And I would advise you not to dismiss the CP so quickly. Just because it has next to no documentation doesn’t lessen its importance. As a matter of fact, I think it a key element of the Santafe artifacts.

I would think that the scale is important, assuming the maps are done to a scale (whether a careful, measured one or just one that happens due to the map maker subconsciously placing landmarks in perspective) so have to agree on that point. On the Cursum Perficio, I neither would dismiss it, nor put too much emphasis on it; not sure it is tied to the stone maps at all. Nor for that matter the Latin heart, the stone crosses etc; they may or may not be linked to the stone maps. Considering the time difference between the finding of the artifacts, the stone maps appear to be stand-alone. Not proven to be stand-alone either.
　

Springfield wrote

Oroblanco, that was a very rational post (#2411). When you approach a subject like this without a predetermined outcome, you tend to avoid trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

Well thanks for the kind words, though I don't see myself habitually trying to pound the literary square peg into the round hole. I do often argue for one side, as part of the debate. I recall the NM site and possible solution you had posted, should have mentioned it as your previous posts are somewhat what I was referring to. I was not aware of the two Peraltas killed in the 1680 rebellion, thanks for that tidbit too.
　

Your point about how many people have been trying to find the treasure in the Superstitions ever since the stone maps were found, or I should say since they were revealed to the general public in the Life mag article <June 12th 1964> has not resulted in much success, rather more unsuccessful effort and expense than anything is valid. I would think that this fact should give pause, perhaps a re-examination of the assumptions would be in order, and among these assumptions the one most important being exactly where the stone maps are intended to portray. Are they supposed to fit to the Superstitions? I sure do not know - have seen multiple arguments online (and by EM, PM and in person) some convincing, some less so, yet have nagging doubts personally. What if they really are intended to be used for New Mexico or Utah or California or Sonora? What would it hurt to take a serious look at other possible locations?
　

Thank you all again and I hope you have a great day, will try to pop in later this evening.
Oroblanco

 

[sgtfda]

Things are pointing to a map that Peg Leg Tumulison had in his collection and the stones copied from that map things are also pointing to two individuals carving the maps. Some of you have a copy of that map.

 

[deducer]

The inscription does not indicate which words are intended to be imperitive, however I presume the "I" referred to indicates the person or persons that wrote the words. I suspect the whole sentence is supposed to be an allegorical reference to proselytizing the Catholic faith, "spreading the gospel" so to speak, however oddly.

Putting aside any allegorical interpretation as that constitutes another level of discussion, let's take the statement at face value: Why would the mapmaker (who hopefully was a human being) implicate that that it is he who 'pastures' or 'grazes' north of the river? How would this make sense to the mapreader?

Do you not agree that most people who look at the horse and then the statement "YO PASTO AL NORTE DEL RIO", conclude that the horse is speaking, based on their experiences that horses are associated with 'pasturing' or 'grazing'?

I would not make that conclusion about Travis Tumlinson, simply do not have enough information to decide whether he did or did not have the mental faculties involving imaging what is not there. Nor for that matter if that is a central theme of the stone maps, which may or may not be true. Doesn't a carving of a treasure chest, present also a mental image of what is not shown, the coins/treasure it contains, or a Spanish galleon, imply the rich treasure it would be carrying as cargo, that would be imaging what is not there?

The carving of a treasure chest is not an abstract design as it has a real-life counterpart. On the other hand, a talking horse, or a 'witch' with no legs speaking of going 18 places, isn't something that exists in life. Why resort to this kind of elaborate symbolism if only a simple money-making scam or hoax? I have not been able to find evidence that Tumlinson engaged in art that was anything else than straightforward depiction, and that in combination with a number of other things, allows me to to dismiss him as the original author of the Stone Maps, with 99% confidence.

Hmm - I do not automatically dismiss anything based on the reputation of the finder(s), however have to disagree in part about con men habitually seeking short cuts. A look at Crazy Jake for example, would present a convicted con man capable of very complex and convincing frauds. The best con men do not ask you for your money, they get you to ask them to take it.

Yet, what Crazy Jake came up with fell far short of anything that could be remotely considered authentic (in fact Johnson needed to write an entire book to list all the mistakes Jake made), and he ended up in jail. He was apparently not complex or convincing enough to pass muster in court.

On the Cursum Perficio, I neither would dismiss it, nor put too much emphasis on it; not sure it is tied to the stone maps at all. Nor for that matter the Latin heart, the stone crosses etc; they may or may not be linked to the stone maps. Considering the time difference between the finding of the artifacts, the stone maps appear to be stand-alone. Not proven to be stand-alone either.

I do not consider the time differences in the discoveries to be of any significance at all.

While the finder of the Stone Maps, Tumlinson had a questionable reputation, the finder of the LH did not, and the find occurred in the same area and separately.

Additionally, the CP paper was found by an individual beyond reproach, a school teacher, and a good friend of Al Reiser, another person also beyond reproach. It additionally was found in a location consistent with, and relevant to the other artifacts that bear the word "Santafe," and so cannot be dismissed. There is also the matter of the symbolism found on it, being consistent with what is on the other artifacts, along with the "misspelled" and gender-incorrect Spanish which also is consistent, and IMHO a very subtle detail that a con man would be unlikely to pick up on.

 

[somehiker]

Lots of 'perhaps', 'may have', 'might' and 'I believe' in that mix. Of course, you might be right on target as all theories are possible without a known answer. Oops ... there's that 'might' again.

Some would understand the use of such adverbs as a token of humility.
However, the arrogant will only see them as a sign of weakness.
Sermons relating to St. Peter (Pedro) and St. Michael (Miguel) are often used to teach the difference.

 

[Oroblanco]

Deducer wrote

Putting aside any allegorical interpretation as that constitutes another level of discussion, let's take the statement at face value: Why would the mapmaker (who hopefully was a human being) implicate that that it is he who 'pastures' or 'grazes' north of the river? How would this make sense to the mapreader?

Well the obvious implication (to me) is that it is a priest doing the writing, or we are supposed to think it is a priest.

Deducer also wrote

Do you not agree that most people who look at the horse and then the statement "YO PASTO AL NORTE DEL RIO", conclude that the horse is speaking, based on their experiences that horses are associated with 'pasturing' or 'grazing'?

Certainly, that is the obvious idea being portrayed; however I get the distinct impression that a hidden meaning is supposed to be conveyed, "pasturing" as with the flock of the faithful, and "I am the horse" meaning the priest is the bearer of the holy faith etc.

Deducer also wrote

The carving of a treasure chest is not an abstract design as it has a real-life counterpart. On the other hand, a talking horse, or a 'witch' with no legs speaking of going 18 places, isn't something that exists in life. Why resort to this kind of elaborate symbolism if only a simple money-making scam or hoax? I have not been able to find evidence that Tumlinson engaged in art that was anything else than straightforward depiction, and that in combination with a number of other things, allows me to to dismiss him as the original author of the Stone Maps, with 99% confidence.

Hmm well have to disagree on this; the "witch" may be intended to be a priest, the legs simply hidden from view, so could easily exist in real life. Why assume that this is intended to be elaborate symbolism, when it could be as simple as it appears? The fact that Travis Tumlinson seems to have had a hobby of making treasure oriented stone carvings and he is the person alleged to have found the stone maps (of which only two are shown on that oldest photo BTW) is quite a coincidence, wouldn't you agree? I respectfully can't agree about ruling out T. Tumlinson as the maker of the stone maps. In fact Tumlinson family members told Garry Cundiff that Travis had made them. Do you dismiss that so easily?

Deducer also wrote

Yet, what Crazy Jake came up with fell far short of anything that could be remotely considered authentic (in fact Johnson needed to write an entire book to list all the mistakes Jake made), and he ended up in jail. He was apparently not complex or convincing enough to pass muster in court.

You give too little credit to Jake; he was able to successfully fool quite a few prominent local citizens, and getting the conviction was no easy task; he even had compromising photos to help keep potential witnesses from testifying. Quite a study in Crazy Jake, but the point was that a fraud can indeed be quite complex, far from simple and willing to go to some lengths to pull it off. Another example we can point to is the Baron of Arizona Reavis; he traveled to Spain to falsify ancient documents and attempted to sue the USA in court, would you expect that a con man would go to such lengths?
　

Deducer also wrote

I do not consider the time differences in the discoveries to be of any significance at all.

While the finder of the Stone Maps, Tumlinson had a questionable reputation, the finder of the LH did not, and the find occurred in the same area and separately.

Additionally, the CP paper was found by an individual beyond reproach, a school teacher, and a good friend of Al Reiser, another person also beyond reproach. It additionally was found in a location consistent with, and relevant to the other artifacts that bear the word "Santafe," and so cannot be dismissed. There is also the matter of the symbolism found on it, being consistent with what is on the other artifacts, along with the "misspelled" and gender-incorrect Spanish which also is consistent, and IMHO a very subtle detail that a con man would be unlikely to pick up on.

Hmm again; just as the least trustworthy type of person can be the one who discovers something genuine and important, someone that is utterly trustworthy and above reproach, can be taken in by false evidence. An example in recent history we can point to in Helen Corbin, she (and many other Dutch hunters) were taken in by a sophisticated collection of fraudulent documents and other "evidence" and published it in the belief that it was genuine. Does that make the fakes genuine, that Helen Corbin published them and she is beyond reproach as a source? Or conversely, does it make Helen a fraud, because she was taken in? I would say no in either case.

As to the mis-spelling and incorrect Spanish, another explanation that is just as applicable is that the writer was NOT a Spanish speaker and simply made errors. As with the "coazon" which could very well be an English speaker trying to write the word as it sounded, for the "r" in corazon can be almost undetectable when spoken by a Spanish speaker.

Have to respectfully disagree on the time span between the Peralta stones and the other artifacts being a possible issue. Would you not agree that the finding of one, could inspire a con man to create others of the same ilk?

Why do you conclude that the Cursum Perficio is definitely linked to the Peralta stones? Thank you in advance.

Somehiker wrote

Some would understand the use of such adverbs as a token of humility.
However, the arrogant will only see them as a sign of weakness.

Your statement brings to mind a great quote,

"The sign of intelligence is that you are constantly wondering. Idiots are always dead sure about every damn thing they are doing in their life. " — Vasudev.
　

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
　

 

[Springfield]

Some would understand the use of such adverbs as a token of humility.
However, the arrogant will only see them as a sign of weakness.
Sermons relating to St. Peter (Pedro) and St. Michael (Miguel) are often used to teach the difference.

That's right, it's all guesswork - a healthy realization. Like another great philosopher said, "When ifs and buts become candy and nuts, we'll all have a Merry Christmas."

 

[somehiker]

Actually, not all. Some will have candy and nuts. The others a lump of coal.
More apropos....."the opera ain't over till the fat lady sings"

 

[deducer]

Well the obvious implication (to me) is that it is a priest doing the writing, or we are supposed to think it is a priest.

Certainly, that is the obvious idea being portrayed; however I get the distinct impression that a hidden meaning is supposed to be conveyed, "pasturing" as with the flock of the faithful, and "I am the horse" meaning the priest is the bearer of the holy faith etc.

Putting aside allegorical interpretation for the moment, it still remains problematic to assume that "YO PASTO.." is being spoken by anything or anyone else than the horse, if only by mere association.

Hmm well have to disagree on this; the "witch" may be intended to be a priest, the legs simply hidden from view, so could easily exist in real life. Why assume that this is intended to be elaborate symbolism, when it could be as simple as it appears? The fact that Travis Tumlinson seems to have had a hobby of making treasure oriented stone carvings and he is the person alleged to have found the stone maps (of which only two are shown on that oldest photo BTW) is quite a coincidence, wouldn't you agree? I respectfully can't agree about ruling out T. Tumlinson as the maker of the stone maps. In fact Tumlinson family members told Garry Cundiff that Travis had made them. Do you dismiss that so easily?

Quite the contrary, the robe doesn't hide the legs, but reveals a three-stepped pedestal which in itself is quite significant as a clue.

I am not sure that it is any coincidence that he made treasure-related carvings, as his grandfather was Peg Leg Tumlinson as you will recall, and he would have most certainly heard quite a number of tall tales, and it is most probably from Peg Leg that he acquire the information as to where to find the Stone Maps.

Insofar as the family members telling Cundiff that they had seen Tumlinson carving the stones, would they have been able to distinguish between original carving and replication carving? We know that the original Stone Maps on the bumper contain quite a number of differences that are not shown on any of the "actual" stones in existence.

You give too little credit to Jake; he was able to successfully fool quite a few prominent local citizens, and getting the conviction was no easy task; he even had compromising photos to help keep potential witnesses from testifying. Quite a study in Crazy Jake, but the point was that a fraud can indeed be quite complex, far from simple and willing to go to some lengths to pull it off. Another example we can point to is the Baron of Arizona Reavis; he traveled to Spain to falsify ancient documents and attempted to sue the USA in court, would you expect that a con man would go to such lengths?

I don't want to get into this too much as I do not consider myself an expert on Jake- but could it be that those few prominent local citizens were in fact illiterate or at least uneducated as was common in those days? In any case I will concede that Jake went further than most con men would.
　

Hmm again; just as the least trustworthy type of person can be the one who discovers something genuine and important, someone that is utterly trustworthy and above reproach, can be taken in by false evidence. An example in recent history we can point to in Helen Corbin, she (and many other Dutch hunters) were taken in by a sophisticated collection of fraudulent documents and other "evidence" and published it in the belief that it was genuine. Does that make the fakes genuine, that Helen Corbin published them and she is beyond reproach as a source? Or conversely, does it make Helen a fraud, because she was taken in? I would say no in either case.

It is difficult to compare Corbin's circumstances to the circumstances surrounding the Stone Maps and their accessories in that while Corbin's being "beyond reproach" does not prevent her from being susceptible to fakes, the fact that a number of the finders of the Stone Maps accessories were "beyond reproach" allows us to assume that they had no reason to doctor or otherwise distort what they found, and this is what merits the unquestioned comparisons that we can make between each artifact.

As to the mis-spelling and incorrect Spanish, another explanation that is just as applicable is that the writer was NOT a Spanish speaker and simply made errors. As with the "coazon" which could very well be an English speaker trying to write the word as it sounded, for the "r" in corazon can be almost undetectable when spoken by a Spanish speaker.

I used to subscribe to such a notion, but now no longer do, for reasons explained in my final answer, below.

Have to respectfully disagree on the time span between the Peralta stones and the other artifacts being a possible issue. Would you not agree that the finding of one, could inspire a con man to create others of the same ilk?

I do not believe there is precedent for one con man to imitate another from a different time period, and in the case of Bilbrey, it does not appear as if Bilbrey took Tumlinson to be a con man, but spent a great deal of time in the Supes, even quitting his job in San Diego and moving to Arizona. This doesn't seem like the actions of a con man trying to imitate another con artist.

Why do you conclude that the Cursum Perficio is definitely linked to the Peralta stones? Thank you in advance.

Those seeking to quickly dismiss the Stone Crosses fail to see how closely the actual crosses resemble that which is carved on both the priest side of the H/P rock, along with the asymmetrical cross carved on the back of the upper map, with relevant details that only those with sharp eyes would detect. On the descriptive cross is a phrase: EL TESORO DE LOS IGLESIA DE SANTAFE, a phrase that also exists on the CP paper, with a very slight alternate spelling of one of the words, and that singular incidence in relation to the word preceding it, matches what was shown in a picture that was posted on this forum a few years ago, a picture that happenstance was taken near where a number of major symbols on the lower map lines up. This, for me, removed any doubt that any of the words on the artifacts were inadvertently misspelled.

 

[somehiker]

Many of the comments made by both Oroblanco and springfield actually answer the question as to why so many have failed in their search,IMO.
As deducer has pointed out, one such factor being those assumptions related to the apparent misspellings giving rise to doubts as to the authenticity of these artifacts. To my way of thinking, it's obvious that those responsible for the stones manufacture, as well as the CP were both highly educated and very familiar with both languages used on the maps. I therefor propose that the "errors" were in fact deliberate, a MO carried across the entire set .
I won't get into all of the details, but it is my conclusion they were committed with the intention of restricting the number of individuals who would be able to read the maps to as few as safe and practical....those who would notice the differences and understand their relative importance.

Three examples:

H/P stone--Priest side....."COAZON" should be "CORAZON" (heart).... whereby the missing letter "R" can be found near the top of the upper map stone.

Stone Cross--descriptive....."SOMEO" should be "SOMERO" (small,shallow,insignificant).... whereby the missing letter "R" can be found near the top of the map cross.

H/P stone--horse side....."COBOLLO" should be "CABALLO" (horse),also applies to the knight piece of a chess set, but I'll elaborate on this and that later.....

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

"I don't want to get into this too much as I do not consider myself an expert on Jake- but could it be that those few prominent local citizens were in fact illiterate or at least uneducated as was common in those days? In any case I will concede that Jake went further than most con men would."

Actually, those "prominent local citizens" were very intelligent and well educated. Talk to Bob Corbin.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Joe:

Intelligent or not, and we will never know how many, all were taken in by the lure of easy money by a pied piper who claimed to have all the answers.
In no way comparable to Tumlinson, Reid, or even Bilbrey.

Wayne