Don is your soil more alkaline or aciditic based soil in mexico?i might sound like a farmer here ,and, i do a little,but, it would give a idea of what kind of soil produces these gases .again thank you
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Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Good morning EE: You posted -->The RF interference from Amplitude Modulated transmitters occurs in two ways---------.
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In essence I tend to agree with you. However I question this--> "(Pure sine waves do not contain harmonics.)" Shall we say in themselves and in a singular state. But, under the right conditions yes, they most certainly do.
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You posted -->So, frequency mixing does not cause harmonics.
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Hmm and just why is ant separation and orientation necessary in transmitters? Too close together and they do mix.
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You posted -->These 'sidebands' are created by your old friend, the frequency mixing results! This, of course, would also cause bleedover.
So, frequency mixing does not cause harmonics.
***********
Hmm I seem to be missing something here but --
Don Jose de La Mancha
**********
In essence I tend to agree with you. However I question this--> "(Pure sine waves do not contain harmonics.)" Shall we say in themselves and in a singular state. But, under the right conditions yes, they most certainly do.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You posted -->So, frequency mixing does not cause harmonics.
************
Hmm and just why is ant separation and orientation necessary in transmitters? Too close together and they do mix.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You posted -->These 'sidebands' are created by your old friend, the frequency mixing results! This, of course, would also cause bleedover.
So, frequency mixing does not cause harmonics.
***********
Hmm I seem to be missing something here but --
Don Jose de La Mancha
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Good morning again EE: You posted --> Sine waves occur in nature, while square waves must be man-made. Sparks can contain an infinite number of frequencies
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Just what kind of a wave is a lighting release? As far as I now they are basically composed of square waves, just as our early spark transmitters in radio communication were
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You posted -->Just because something, whose resonant frequency is a harmonic of an introduced frequency, resonates at that harmonic, doesn't mean that the introduced frequency, itself, contains a harmonic
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Can you name me a single frequency that doesn't have, or isn't composed of a previous freq's harmonic except for the original single cycle based upon the zero line of the Universe's?
Don Jose de La Mancha
***************
Just what kind of a wave is a lighting release? As far as I now they are basically composed of square waves, just as our early spark transmitters in radio communication were
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You posted -->Just because something, whose resonant frequency is a harmonic of an introduced frequency, resonates at that harmonic, doesn't mean that the introduced frequency, itself, contains a harmonic
**************
Can you name me a single frequency that doesn't have, or isn't composed of a previous freq's harmonic except for the original single cycle based upon the zero line of the Universe's?
Don Jose de La Mancha
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Good afternoon hayman: You posted -->Don i was wondering if i could ask you a question
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Of course, that is why we are here, besides being friends.
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You posted -->,what kind of atmospheric pressures and temperatures , moisture levels of the ground would make this effect happen?thank you
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Obviously I am not an expert on the many factors involved. What I can tell you is that locally it is generally in the summer under high humidity, heat. and generally low mercury readings. With the extremely high humidity / rain, etc., the soil is loosened up enough to allow the collection of gas to escape. Under darkened conditions, night, it is notable for a bit. Sometimes only for a sec, then others for 10- 15 seconds.
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You also posted -->Don is your soil more alkaline or acidic based soil in mexico?i
***************
Alkaline, generally with many natural chemicals since it is strictly the product of erosion.
Don Jose de La Mancha
*******************
Of course, that is why we are here, besides being friends.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You posted -->,what kind of atmospheric pressures and temperatures , moisture levels of the ground would make this effect happen?thank you
*****************
Obviously I am not an expert on the many factors involved. What I can tell you is that locally it is generally in the summer under high humidity, heat. and generally low mercury readings. With the extremely high humidity / rain, etc., the soil is loosened up enough to allow the collection of gas to escape. Under darkened conditions, night, it is notable for a bit. Sometimes only for a sec, then others for 10- 15 seconds.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You also posted -->Don is your soil more alkaline or acidic based soil in mexico?i
***************
Alkaline, generally with many natural chemicals since it is strictly the product of erosion.
Don Jose de La Mancha
EE THr
Silver Member
RDT---
If you generate a sine wave, and connect it to a spectrum analyser, you will only see the original sine wave frequency. No harmonics will show up on the analyser.
If you tap a tuning fork, it will resonate at only one frequency. No harmonics.
I sense maybe there is a fusion of terminology entering into this concept. Agreed upon definitions of terminology is necessary for accurate communications.
Transmitters too close will create a kind of interference. I was going to include this as the third type, but it didn't seem closely enough related to apply. The reason for this kind of interference is simply that a close transmitter can over power the tuned circuits in a receiver and just "blast" through. This can even cause interference on audio amplifiers, by getting into the wiring itself, and/or the power supuply, and being amplified. (If you are sitting at a drive-up window, and talk on your CB, they can hear it in their headphones---so watch what you say about the cute chick at the window!)
If you use wide range audio, on a narrow band channel, the modulation has the same effect as mixing, and if you don't have strong bandwidth filters on the RF amplifier stages, it will get transmitted as broad sidebands, which will extend into adjacent channels. (This is why you tune the stages for bandwidth, instead of peaking each stage. If you simply peak the stages, the audio will be crappy.)
Since lightning strikes are only single events, and not occurring at regular intervals, they would generally be referred to as pulses, rather than waves.
The spark transmitters had tuned circuits following the key contacts. The tuned circuits resonated at one particular frequency, and would thus smooth out the waveform at the same time.
If you build a simple oscillator, it will produce it's own, single, frequency. There is no "previous frequency." Think tuning fork.
If you generate a sine wave, and connect it to a spectrum analyser, you will only see the original sine wave frequency. No harmonics will show up on the analyser.
If you tap a tuning fork, it will resonate at only one frequency. No harmonics.
I sense maybe there is a fusion of terminology entering into this concept. Agreed upon definitions of terminology is necessary for accurate communications.
Transmitters too close will create a kind of interference. I was going to include this as the third type, but it didn't seem closely enough related to apply. The reason for this kind of interference is simply that a close transmitter can over power the tuned circuits in a receiver and just "blast" through. This can even cause interference on audio amplifiers, by getting into the wiring itself, and/or the power supuply, and being amplified. (If you are sitting at a drive-up window, and talk on your CB, they can hear it in their headphones---so watch what you say about the cute chick at the window!)
If you use wide range audio, on a narrow band channel, the modulation has the same effect as mixing, and if you don't have strong bandwidth filters on the RF amplifier stages, it will get transmitted as broad sidebands, which will extend into adjacent channels. (This is why you tune the stages for bandwidth, instead of peaking each stage. If you simply peak the stages, the audio will be crappy.)
Since lightning strikes are only single events, and not occurring at regular intervals, they would generally be referred to as pulses, rather than waves.
The spark transmitters had tuned circuits following the key contacts. The tuned circuits resonated at one particular frequency, and would thus smooth out the waveform at the same time.
If you build a simple oscillator, it will produce it's own, single, frequency. There is no "previous frequency." Think tuning fork.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
HI EE, surprisingly enough we agree on many points ---->
#1 ok on man made signals.
#2 ok but have you tried a second tuning fork based upon one of the basic harmonics of that frequency? Different factor from radio.
#3 Absolutely no disagreement. except that we basically are not discussing single frequencies here, but combinations.
#4 In general no argument, except harmonics 'will; be created, but of what practical significance?
#5 In-regards to radio, I am in general agreement also, have had that problem. Good transformers help greatly here.
#6 Pulses or whatever, they do generate many strong harmonics. I was taught that in an emergency, with no useable communication devices, to just use the unshielded ignition system of an aircraft or automobile as a fair emerg. signal generator and send out the message in Morse code. If you didn't know morse, the irritant factor would sooner or later have someone calling on you.
#7 You should use "tend" to smooth out ---.
#8 that is obvious since 'YOU' are producing the signal. but if two or more signals are already active, they will tend to interact with each other and end up with the harmonics.
,
I hope that I am slowly clearing up a point that I tried to do with Carl, when I mentioned that theoretically radio laws do not apply completely in our discussion.
Don Jose de L aMancha
#1 ok on man made signals.
#2 ok but have you tried a second tuning fork based upon one of the basic harmonics of that frequency? Different factor from radio.
#3 Absolutely no disagreement. except that we basically are not discussing single frequencies here, but combinations.
#4 In general no argument, except harmonics 'will; be created, but of what practical significance?
#5 In-regards to radio, I am in general agreement also, have had that problem. Good transformers help greatly here.
#6 Pulses or whatever, they do generate many strong harmonics. I was taught that in an emergency, with no useable communication devices, to just use the unshielded ignition system of an aircraft or automobile as a fair emerg. signal generator and send out the message in Morse code. If you didn't know morse, the irritant factor would sooner or later have someone calling on you.
#7 You should use "tend" to smooth out ---.
#8 that is obvious since 'YOU' are producing the signal. but if two or more signals are already active, they will tend to interact with each other and end up with the harmonics.
,
I hope that I am slowly clearing up a point that I tried to do with Carl, when I mentioned that theoretically radio laws do not apply completely in our discussion.
Don Jose de L aMancha
EE THr
Silver Member
RDT---
Last first again. The "radio laws" are merely an organized observation of the phenomenon, which can be used to communicate about them, and even to attempt to predict new ones. If you are talking to someone who speaks English, then start interweaving other languages, it would likely result in misunderstanding or, at best, confusion.
So if you are talking to someone about electronics, it's best to stick to standard electronics terminology, si?
If someone discovers some new technology, and needs to invent new terminology, then the new terms need to be fully defined to the point of satisfactory comprehension. Otherwise he's speaking a non-language, and how is that going to help him communicate what he wants to say?
If you strike a tuning fork, and place one of a harmonic near it, the second will vibrate at it's own resonant frequency. They will mix, and give you four frequencies until they die out. But if you use a frequency analyser, you will only see the four frequencies. There would be no further harmonics generated, because there is nothing further to resonate, in that frequency range. (I've never heard anything about air, itself, resonating; but it might, at a molecular level or something. )
Since perfection is hard to accomplish, a person could argue that no sine wave is perfect, and therefore there must be some minuscule harmonics generated even with the best of them. But that gets into the "halfwar to the wall" kind of stuff, which is outside the realm of measurement, and thus beyond any applicable practicality.
Sparks, can generate all frequencies, so they can usually be picked up on all receivers. They are not limited to any particular harmonics. For example, what frequency would it be that was generating a multiple of itself? There is no primary frequency, which is required to properly define a harmonic of it. A spark is just "random" conduction across a gap. So is lightning.
And I said it would smooth it out, I just didn't say how much! A tuned circuit is a filter. It only resonates at the frequency it's tuned to. And the idea is usually to design them to resonate in a sine wave form. How much "hash" might get through them is a function of how they are designed and built.
Last first again. The "radio laws" are merely an organized observation of the phenomenon, which can be used to communicate about them, and even to attempt to predict new ones. If you are talking to someone who speaks English, then start interweaving other languages, it would likely result in misunderstanding or, at best, confusion.
So if you are talking to someone about electronics, it's best to stick to standard electronics terminology, si?
If someone discovers some new technology, and needs to invent new terminology, then the new terms need to be fully defined to the point of satisfactory comprehension. Otherwise he's speaking a non-language, and how is that going to help him communicate what he wants to say?
If you strike a tuning fork, and place one of a harmonic near it, the second will vibrate at it's own resonant frequency. They will mix, and give you four frequencies until they die out. But if you use a frequency analyser, you will only see the four frequencies. There would be no further harmonics generated, because there is nothing further to resonate, in that frequency range. (I've never heard anything about air, itself, resonating; but it might, at a molecular level or something.
)Since perfection is hard to accomplish, a person could argue that no sine wave is perfect, and therefore there must be some minuscule harmonics generated even with the best of them. But that gets into the "halfwar to the wall" kind of stuff, which is outside the realm of measurement, and thus beyond any applicable practicality.
Sparks, can generate all frequencies, so they can usually be picked up on all receivers. They are not limited to any particular harmonics. For example, what frequency would it be that was generating a multiple of itself? There is no primary frequency, which is required to properly define a harmonic of it. A spark is just "random" conduction across a gap. So is lightning.
And I said it would smooth it out, I just didn't say how much! A tuned circuit is a filter. It only resonates at the frequency it's tuned to. And the idea is usually to design them to resonate in a sine wave form. How much "hash" might get through them is a function of how they are designed and built.
starsplitter
Sr. Member
- Jan 20, 2007
- 422
- 27
Jesus, can one of you guys just build the gizmo and report the results? 
EE THr
Silver Member
starsplitter---
I don't think there is any gizmo here. Just grab a digital camera. And some people recommend certain standard lens filters.
I don't think there is any gizmo here. Just grab a digital camera. And some people recommend certain standard lens filters.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
HI starz, we are trying my friend, but we are still on the highly immaginative / speculative phase yet.
Don Jose de La Mancha
Don Jose de La Mancha
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Evening my friend AA ----\_ _ / I think that we would have a ball with an informal get together at the local coffee shop or in my patio..
You brought up the interesting point of a common language, you are completely correct. this is one reason that I suggested to Carl to forget radio theory, while it is similar, it doesn't actually apply100 %.
You posted -->If you strike a tuning fork, and place one of a harmonic near it, the second will vibrate at it's own resonant frequency. They will mix, and give you four frequencies until they die out. But if you use a frequency analyser, you will only see the four frequencies. There would be no further harmonics generated, because there is nothing further to resonate, in that frequency range. (I've never heard anything about air, itself, resonating; but it might, at a molecular level or something. )
***********
Hmm here we tend to separate. Because air 'is' the medium of transmission, we will have many, many frequencies. The effect would be similar to throwing two stones simultaneously, but separated, into a calm pond and watching the intermixing / interference of the ripples.
Don Jose de La Mancha
_ / I think that we would have a ball with an informal get together at the local coffee shop or in my patio..You brought up the interesting point of a common language, you are completely correct. this is one reason that I suggested to Carl to forget radio theory, while it is similar, it doesn't actually apply100 %.
You posted -->If you strike a tuning fork, and place one of a harmonic near it, the second will vibrate at it's own resonant frequency. They will mix, and give you four frequencies until they die out. But if you use a frequency analyser, you will only see the four frequencies. There would be no further harmonics generated, because there is nothing further to resonate, in that frequency range. (I've never heard anything about air, itself, resonating; but it might, at a molecular level or something. )
***********
Hmm here we tend to separate. Because air 'is' the medium of transmission, we will have many, many frequencies. The effect would be similar to throwing two stones simultaneously, but separated, into a calm pond and watching the intermixing / interference of the ripples.
Don Jose de La Mancha
EE THr
Silver Member
RDT---
With the two rocks in the water, it would be a mix, because you have two primary sources. This is different than the tuning fork inducing vibration in a second tuning fork.
With the water, you will get some interesting patterns, where the waves cross each other, but still just the four wave frequencies. See Moire pattern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moiré_pattern.
These patterns are similar to the standing wave phenomenon, and can produce standing waves. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_wave.
With the two rocks in the water, it would be a mix, because you have two primary sources. This is different than the tuning fork inducing vibration in a second tuning fork.
With the water, you will get some interesting patterns, where the waves cross each other, but still just the four wave frequencies. See Moire pattern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moiré_pattern.
These patterns are similar to the standing wave phenomenon, and can produce standing waves. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_wave.
Carl-NC
Bronze Member
- Mar 19, 2003
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Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
Sounds like you're re-defining math & physics to fit a made-up alternate reality. It's a Big Pile, and folks should be careful not to step in it.
starsplitter said:Jesus, can one of you guys just build the gizmo and report the results?
Ben Thayer and Don Thatt. Both Polaroid and digital. Don't work, at all. Folks who continue to insist it does work are propping up delusions with heaping gobs of made-up non-science.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
EE an interesting point, however I am well acquainted with Moire wave patterns. My two rocks intersecting waves suggestion has nothing to do with them, but does on physical wave propagation and interference..
Don Jose de La Mancha
Don Jose de La Mancha
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Evening Carl, You copied & posted -->However I question this--> "(Pure sine waves do not contain harmonics.)" Shall we say in themselves and in a singular state. But, under the right conditions yes, they most certainly do.
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It is quite clear what I posted, it was stated "(Pure sine waves do not contain harmonics.)", I stated - "in themselves and in a 'singular' state" --- you do understand what a singular state is no, or do you ?
Sigh
Don Jose de La Mancha
**********
It is quite clear what I posted, it was stated "(Pure sine waves do not contain harmonics.)", I stated - "in themselves and in a 'singular' state" --- you do understand what a singular state is no, or do you ?
Sigh
Don Jose de La Mancha
EE THr
Silver Member
RDT---
On the Widipedia link I provided, if you scroll down, there is an audio representation of a soundwave Moire pattern. That is a physical wave propagation. Can you count the resulting frequencies? Warning: Listening to it can drive you nuts!
Further down, there is an example of the pattern made by your two rocks (two circular wave patterns intersecting).
You have to click to enlarge, and that one actually moves to show the interaction, here---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moiré.gif
You would get some standing waves, because they are going in opposing directions. But the amplitude of the standing waves would vary along the contact arcs of the wave fronts, because the angle of contact varies. But I don't see any multitude of new frequencies, do you?
If there were new frequencies, then where are they after the two center points meet, and all the waves align? There are none there.
Oh yeah, here's another frequency mixing example I thought of. You're flying a twin engine, the engines are a little out of sync. What do you hear? The (number of cylinders firing multiplied by the) RPM of each engine, plus that irritating WOoooooOW-WOoooooOW sound of the difference frequency. The sum frequency would be too high to hear, though; unless you had two-bangers and pretty good ears, I think.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
On the Widipedia link I provided, if you scroll down, there is an audio representation of a soundwave Moire pattern. That is a physical wave propagation. Can you count the resulting frequencies? Warning: Listening to it can drive you nuts!
Further down, there is an example of the pattern made by your two rocks (two circular wave patterns intersecting).
You have to click to enlarge, and that one actually moves to show the interaction, here---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moiré.gif
You would get some standing waves, because they are going in opposing directions. But the amplitude of the standing waves would vary along the contact arcs of the wave fronts, because the angle of contact varies. But I don't see any multitude of new frequencies, do you?
If there were new frequencies, then where are they after the two center points meet, and all the waves align? There are none there.
Oh yeah, here's another frequency mixing example I thought of. You're flying a twin engine, the engines are a little out of sync. What do you hear? The (number of cylinders firing multiplied by the) RPM of each engine, plus that irritating WOoooooOW-WOoooooOW sound of the difference frequency. The sum frequency would be too high to hear, though; unless you had two-bangers and pretty good ears, I think.
Carl-NC
Bronze Member
- Mar 19, 2003
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Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
A "pure sine wave" does not contain harmonics, period. There is nothing to debate, because it is a physical and mathematical definition. A waveform that has harmonics is NOT a pure sine wave.
Do you understand this?
EE THr
Silver Member
I cheated, and added to my previous post. The refresh button might need to be clicked to see it.
( I thought I could do it really fast, but that didn't work very well.)
( I thought I could do it really fast, but that didn't work very well.)
EE THr
Silver Member
EE THr said:
(The point being that there are no harmonics.)
JG
Jr. Member
- Nov 15, 2006
- 89
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I get it Carl. What you see here is QRM.
When you search for the tropical tramp he is all over the map. I am sure you have met people before who will say things that are just not realistic. Don said he flew the P51. Why would someone who is a pilot take a donkey on a field trip in Mesico and not have the aerial pictures to document it like he claims to have done before? He says he is a honorary or voted lifetime member of the Explorers club in NY. No listing for Joseph Curry. The one and the same that was looking for suckers to go to Atlantis that he claims he found. Arthur Joseph Curry is a comic book hero, he found Atlantis.
The poor man wants recognition and it is high time he got it. You Carl, on the other hand are a disciplined man and are deserving of more respect. If the Lord tarries and the river don’t rise you will be remembered for your contributions and achievements that are measurable and documentable.
The other guys,.. sigh. Makes me think of stolen valor.
When you search for the tropical tramp he is all over the map. I am sure you have met people before who will say things that are just not realistic. Don said he flew the P51. Why would someone who is a pilot take a donkey on a field trip in Mesico and not have the aerial pictures to document it like he claims to have done before? He says he is a honorary or voted lifetime member of the Explorers club in NY. No listing for Joseph Curry. The one and the same that was looking for suckers to go to Atlantis that he claims he found. Arthur Joseph Curry is a comic book hero, he found Atlantis.
The poor man wants recognition and it is high time he got it. You Carl, on the other hand are a disciplined man and are deserving of more respect. If the Lord tarries and the river don’t rise you will be remembered for your contributions and achievements that are measurable and documentable.
The other guys,.. sigh. Makes me think of stolen valor.
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