Digital cameras CAN see buried gold

[Carl-NC]

Surface penetration of IR sensing devices has not been the concept of discussion here.

Not sure about this particular thread (ain't gonna re-read the whole durn thing) but in a parallel thread (cameras see gold) it was discussed. In response to claims of using IR photography to capture buried gold, I posted:

Soil doesn't transmit ("pass") IR. IR radiation strikes the surface of the soil, is converted to heat, which thermally conducts (poorly) through the soil.

It appears you are under the impression that IR radiation penetrates the soil, all the way down to a buried object, and the buried object absorbs more IR than the surrounding soil. Then, late in the day, the buried object re-radiates the IR at a higher rate than the surrounding soil, making itself "visible" to an IR detector. It doesn't work this way, at all. There are some simple experiments that would easily prove this.


Yes, many folks are under the impression that IR directly penetrates down to the target. Even more are under the impression that buried metals will heat and cool more slowly than surrounding soil.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening Carl: you posted --> adding 2 frequencies does not produce 2 add'l frequencies
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You are correct, it produces an - 'infinite no'. - of them, with just the lower numbered harmonics being normally useable in present day developments.
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You also quoted me -->Heterodyning --> In radio and signal processing, heterodyning is the generation of new 'frequencies' by mixing two oscillating waveforms. ...

The Subharmonics / harmonics that are produced causes two tones to form a second pair of tones, one being a difference between the two and the other being the sum. the sub harmonic / harmonic combined with one of the orig frequencies again produces two more frequencies and on to an infinite no of combinations, all progressively weaker
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You posted -->If you knew anything about signals, you wouldn't have said this. For those who know what they are talking about, the mathematics of signals (frequencies) using sines & cosines is easy. Since you have no idea how to do this, your response is limited to

Radio theory doesn't apply here, so forget it.
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K to demonstrate, simply connect an oscilloscope to the two heterodyned signals, and trace them, and their harmonics, no need for math.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI again Carl: You posted --> You are free to retract your claims; a simple "I really don't know" will suffice.
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Ha Ha Ha, you 'do' have a delightful sense of humor at times Carl
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You also posted from EE -->Even more are under the impression that buried metals will heat and cool more slowly than surrounding soil.

YOU -->Yes, many folks are under the impression that IR directly penetrates down to the target. Even more are under the impression that buried metals will heat and cool more slowly than surrounding soil.

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This one stops even me, snicker, perhaps for the rate of heat transference, which will be approximately the same, but not the quantity of energy transferred, this is why a buried mass of shall we say metal, will continue to give off IR (heat) energy long after the soil has dissipated it's stored share.

In theory, we are after this difference later in the time period, before the new warming cycle commences.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[EE THr]

Carl---

I'm not sure of the physics theory involved, or what advantages this form of imaging has or why it was chosen, but here are a couple of interesting shots. I also don't know if this method does or could relate to discovering mineral deposits, or precious metal treasure. Anyway here they are, along with some of the story behind them, by the person who took them. You may have already seen these on this site. I hope he doesn't mind my quoting him and his photos.

"I spent 19 YEARS searching for the burial sites... from 1975 to 1994... I located the burial sites (shown below) by taking a series of low altitude aerial near infrared photos (on my own, in the spring of 1994) of the suspected location of the treasure. I spent the better part of 1994 analyzing these photos."






P.S. The sites were later confirmed.

 

[EE THr]

Here is a site, by a company which uses satellite imaging with different IR bands, to determine various geological information. Apparently certain kinds of mineralization is readable. There is not direct mention of precious metals, though. And, of course, nothing about treasure detection!

But it is interesting, anyway.

http://www.satimagingcorp.com/svc/mining.html


I especially liked the diamond mine, at the very bottom of the page.






While searching around, I also found this, among other things---

"Since the advent of cheap and declassified Landsat images in the late 1970s and early 1980s, mineral exploration has begun to use satellite imagery to map not only the visual light spectrum over mineral exploration tenements, but spectra which are beyond the visible.

Satellite based spectroscopes allow the modern mineral explorationist, in regions devoid of cover and vegetation, to map minerals and alteration directly."

It's under the section on "Remote Sensing," here---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_exploration


Still, there isn't anything about buried gold or anything like that.

But some things are going on with non-visable spectrum light.

Why different minerals show up at different bands of IR is not explained in any of this stuff I have read so far. And it's dinnertime here.

 

[Carl-NC]

DJ, whether you add or multiply two frequencies, harmonics are not naturally generated, unless you do something extra to distort the signals. f1+f2 --> f1, f2; f1*f2 --> (f1+f2), (f1-f2). Nothing more. This is Signals 101. You're never too old to learn.

EE, IR photography is immensely useful for highlighting soil density changes. Roads, foundation walls, burial spots, and so forth are often distinguishable because they have soil densities different than the surrounding terrain, and absorb & release heat at a different rate.

If you dig a hole and fill it back in, it will show up in an IR photo. However, if you dig two equal holes and toss some gold coins in the bottom of one, you won't be able to tell the difference in an IR photo. I suspect that most people who think otherwise do so because of their experience with metals in sunlight. Anyone knows that a chunk of metal lying on the ground can get hot, much hotter than the ground it's on. So they incorrectly extrapolate the same effect when the metal is buried a foot deep.

Doesn't work that way. Metal has a higher thermal conductivity and a lower thermal mass than the soil it replaces, resulting in a higher thermal diffusivity. Basically, buried metal will simply track the surrounding soil temperature. Metal lying on the ground gets hot because it's directly exposed to sunlight IR, which can directly heat the metal via radiation, as opposed to buried metal, which is limited to conduction heating from the soil.

 

[JG]

Don, just curious, what make and type of aircraft did you fly in combat for the Navy in WWII? Neither of those pictures seems to fit. Mind explaining? I don’t see no dive bomber.

 

[hung]

Tayopa, you are right.
Intermodulation in the case of summing frequencies is infinite as subharmonics add each time with lower amplitude.
No need math for this, you can easily see it graphically as Omega is not constant.

Also in the case of IR, I have told in the Cameras thread that it's not the incoming IR, but THE ONE that it's released by earth in the cooling proccess which happens 24 hours a day the responsible for the phenomena to be captured by the camera with the right filters. The released IR interacts with the ionization of buried gold and tellurics.
In the case of gold veins, with a much stronger ionization, the magnetic moments in full moon in the summertime also add to turn visible the phenomenon of 'moving fireballs' over gold veins and mining areas in South America.

After the promising and serious initial posts by people as Midas and Tim Williams for instance, this thread got stuck in the skeptic agenda.
Carl continues to post absurds and misinformations with his wrong understanding of some scientific concepts.

Good job Tayopa. Only a year in the electronics course as you state, was much more meaningful and rewarding as it allowed you to move on in gathering knowledge in the school of life. And for an inquiring mind, this is what matters.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Carl: you posted -->DJ, whether you add or multiply two frequencies, harmonics are not naturally generated, unless you do something extra to distort the signals. f1+f2 --> f1, f2; f1*f2 --> (f1+f2), (f1-f2). Nothing more. This is Signals 101. You're never too old to learn
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Like to try again Carl??
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You posted --> Basically, buried metal will simply track the surrounding soil temperature.
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No argument here, but the wording 'track' literally means following, which in turn means continuing to lose it's heat after the soil does,. In addition, it has built up condsiderablly more 'stored heat' per unit, not higher temp, than the surrounding ground did.

If you wish to perform a simple experiment on this, just place a piece of fist sized Iron, and a handfull of dirt in a frying pan. Heat them for 20 minutes at high heat, turn off the heat, then after a minute pick both of them up. You will probbly end up with burned fingers fron the heated iron but nothing but dirty fingers from the soil. this is where thermal mass comes in.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning again Carl: You posted -->Metal has a higher thermal conductivity and a lower thermal mass than the soil it replaces, resulting in a higher thermal diffusivity
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Will give you a "C" on this, you are half right. Higher thermal conductivity yes, lower thermal mass 'no'.
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You posted -->as opposed to buried metal, which is limited to conduction heating from the soil.
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I believe that we have stated this many times We have consistently posted that it is the 'differential' - loss - of this "heat" from the stored thermal masses that creates a window for a modified camera to work as we are discussing.

Depending upon the time factor, after removing the heat source, the stored heat in the more active thermal mass is always greater than the surrounding ground's - at first - , then it is gradually defused back to the soil. Since the soil is effectively an insulator, only a small portion of the soil, in intimate contact with the more efficient thermal mass, is effected.

So we end up with a relatively large area which is thermally more active than the surrounding soil further away. This is our window.

Incidentally, the differential loss is determined by the 'size' of the more efficient "thermal mass" . A single 1/4 Escudo's stored heat will not be the same as a 45 kilo gold bar, obviously.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[EE THr]

hung---

Intermodulation in the case of summing frequencies is infinite as subharmonics add each time with lower amplitude.

Intermodulation is a type of distortion. It is an unintentional modulation. A cousin to cross-talk would be one way to think about it. Or even plain old interference.

Summing frequencies has nothing to do with harmonics, unless one of the frequencies happens to be a harmonic of the other.

The same goes for mixing.

A harmonic is just an integer multiple of a specified frequency.

When you add two numbers, do you get an invasion of extra numbers which are exact multiples of the two original numbers? Where are all your "harmonics" supposed to come from, new math?

The results are not infinite, they are finite.

I give you a C- in mumbo-jumbo.

Have you thought of adding sideband theory as part of your gobbledygook? Lots of big words possible there. You should give it a try. It could be very impressive. You could weave the word "infinite" in there very convincingly, in several places. Why limit yourself to the existing pseudo-science, when there is much, much more data which you can aberrate? There is an infinite un-reality just waiting for you out there! Have fun, always wear clean underwear in case you get in an accident, and remember to write!

 

[starsplitter]

Between research and hunting, I don't know how folks can spend so much time on this thing. By the way, I'm still voting for the begonia or philodendrun approaches. Did you know you can hook up plants to an electroencephalograph? No, really. Keep it up though - this is interesting. Confusing, but interesting.

 

[hung]

hung---

Intermodulation in the case of summing frequencies is infinite as subharmonics add each time with lower amplitude.

Intermodulation is a type of distortion. It is an unintentional modulation. A cousin to cross-talk would be one way to think about it. Or even plain old interference.

Summing frequencies has nothing to do with harmonics, unless one of the frequencies happens to be a harmonic of the other.

The same goes for mixing.

A harmonic is just an integer multiple of a specified frequency.

When you add two numbers, do you get an invasion of extra numbers which are exact multiples of the two original numbers? Where are all your "harmonics" supposed to come from, new math?

The results are not infinite, they are finite.

I give you a C- in mumbo-jumbo.

Have you thought of adding sideband theory as part of your gobbledygook? Lots of big words possible there. You should give it a try. It could be very impressive. You could weave the word "infinite" in there very convincingly, in several places. Why limit yourself to the existing pseudo-science, when there is much, much more data which you can aberrate? There is an infinite un-reality just waiting for you out there! Have fun, always wear clean underwear in case you get in an accident, and remember to write!

WHAT
So you are saying that somewhere in time, omega gets constant 'unbending' its axis?

See dude, you better keep asking questions as you like in the LRL forum. Maybe someone will have the patience to answer you.
I do not.
Regards.

 

[EE THr]

hungup the lofty---

There are many omegas in physics. Which is the one you are referring to?

Or did you just make up your own terminology again?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good evening EE: May I ask why such care has to be taken by amature radio fans to not interfere with other radio operations, what is this possible interference.? And just how do they do it? What is their primary concern? What is this possible RF / AF interference?

In deference to Carl's pickiness, I have to say that in reception, they don't eliminate the interfering signals, as such, but merely fail to pass it along through filters and chokes and bypasses, etc., etc.

As for the emission source, they have to take care to maintain it under control, basically the same as for reception, however it is never completely eliminated except for practical purposes. There are many ways to do this, but this is sufficient to show that interference can come though 'harmonics and sub harmonics' as well as other means.

As for harmonics, shucks, I have a old signal generator out in back that I used for stage alignments for experiments, radios, and TV's in other days. It has five bands, 4 of which are simply 'harmonics' of the original. In addition it has the ability to modulate any one of the bands with an audible signal, or to simply use the audio signal alone. It also has instructions for using a sub harmonic arrangement for extremely low frequency work. This you have to do yourself.

As I stated, theoretically I could continue to use further combinations of harmonics for extremely higher or lower coverage, but in this case, using math alone, they would be highly suspect of other than being in the ballpark even with my TI-36X calculator. However a pure frequency can be developed to compare it with.

Somehow this doesn't seem to be accord in what Carl was jumping on me about ??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO EE my friend: I suggest that you look at musical frequencies, Harmonics play an extremely important role in instruments and symphonic orchestras.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[EE THr]

RDT---

Last first. If you play a musical note, and put a tuning fork which is resonant at a harmonic or subharmonic of that note, that tuning fork will vibrate from the sound. Even though the note is pure, that is, the instrument is not emitting harmonics or subharmonics.

So, in that case, it would be the tuning fork which is creating it's own vibration frequency, continually stimulated by the note from the instrument, at exactly double or half the resonant frequency of the tuning fork.

So, there you have a harmonic or subharmonic, but where did it come from? It didn't come from the instrument. The tuning fork didn't generate it on it's own, because it has no energy.

The harmonic or subharmonic occurred because the musical note from the instrument stimulated the tuning fork (via air movement), and being resonant at exactly double or half the frequency of the note, and since the tuning fork is a mechanical tuned circuit, it vibrates at it's resonant frequency because the timing of the instrument's note is continually stimulating it at exactly the right times, due to the exact multiple or division of it's frequency, and the tuning fork will continue to vibrate as long as the instrument's note continues.


The RF interference from Amplitude Modulated transmitters occurs in two ways.

One way is when the output is clipped, from overmodulation. This results in output that resembles square waves, because the RF amplifier is overdriven and cannot amplify enough to match the excess amplitude of the audio input. The more overmodulation, the more the result resembles square waves. Square waves are composed of odd-numbered harmonics, and these harmonics cause radiation outside of the expected bandwidth of the transmitter. This results in bleedover into nearby channels. This would be a "dirty" transmitter. (Pure sine waves do not contain harmonics.)

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave

The other way is, too wide of an audio bandwidth used in modulation. This is why AM radio stations don't have very high fidelity. They must limit their audio range in order to avoid large sidebands which extend beyond their authorized transmitted RF bandwidth. These sidebands are created by your old friend, the frequency mixing results! This, of course, would also cause bleedover.


So, frequency mixing does not cause harmonics.

Just because something, whose resonant frequency is a harmonic of an introduced frequency, resonates at that harmonic, doesn't mean that the introduced frequency, itself, contains a harmonic.

Side notes: Sine waves occur in nature, while square waves must be man-made. Sparks can contain an infinite number of frequencies, and that's why things like motors with commutators, switches being turned on or off, and lightning, can be heard on radios and TVs.

 

[JG]

EE, why did you post the same pictures Marc did?

 

[Gaijun1]

Great Stuff On The Reading Pages ( I Like )

 

[hayman]

Don i was wondering if i could ask you a question about your 8 reales you found.it sounds like luminous gas is not a 24-7 thing?you said that this gase came with the frist rains ,and, night time was another time to see it.the question i was wanting to ask is ,what kind of atmospheric pressures and temperatures , moisture levels of the ground would make this effect happen?thank you