Did a Sawpit start the Legend?

[TruthbeTold]

Robot’s favorite oak island storyline was that the money pit contained Sir Francis Bacon’s tomb (yeah I know).

He was even promoting selling models of the fictional tomb.

 

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[Crow]

Robot’s favorite oak island storyline was that the money pit contained Sir Francis Bacon’s tomb (yeah I know).

He was even promoting selling models of the fictional tomb.

I do not how he came to such a conclusion. After the accession of James I in 1603, Bacon was knighted, then created Baron Verulam in 1618 and Viscount St Alban in 1621. He had no heirs, and so both titles became extinct on his death of pneumonia in 1626 at the age of 65. He is buried at St Michael's Church, St Albans, Hertfordshire.

Here is crest below.

Well what can I say.

But it does nightlight the problem any serious researcher now facing the original treasure story is sinking under the weight of conspiracy theories.
There is so many unfounded claims been have been taken as true and re-posted as fact.

Sadly for me with all the enthusiasm Robot had the only thing he achieved was bury the topic in confusing swamp conspiracy theories.

Crow

 

[n2mini]

Was about to suggest that the detail in ROBOT'S post of how much was paid on the land sales indicate some kind of ACCOUNTING ledger like county governments use, but that dust plume
I am choking on is CROW way down that road already.

In the meantime, since proving a hoax is sorta the theme of this thread, how about we get a list of suspects who could have made money on or enjoyed a good hoax.
Anthony Vaughn
Daniel McGinnis
John Smith
Samuel Ball
Casper Wallenhaupt
Not even started.

There is a minor mystery regarding the ROBOT posts. He? had a theory that someone dug up the treasure in 1782, so he? was interested in people pulling up stakes between 1782 and 1802, hence the list. However, he missed some.
Lots 4, 16, 21, 22, 26, 29, and 30 also changed hands during that time frame.
Pretty sloppy?or something else

If memory serves, Daniel McGinnis owned a sawmill. To be successful, he must have gotten experience somewhere, like maybe starting in a sawpit??
Yeah, real thin, I know.
.

Saw Pit would explain the shackle hanging in the tree, but not why they started digging there and or why it was one of the other guys who supposedly found the impression. Unless it was a hoax from the very beginning, but why did John Smith not find the impression on his own property. Maybe they found the impression and dug a ways and then decided they'd be better off owning that property in case there was a treasure there, hence J Smith buying it. I know some dates are all over the place but supposedly John Smith bought Lot 18 in 1795 from Casper W. . What I read claimed he bought the Lot in June of that year. Do we know what month Daniel McGinnis claims to have found what became the Money Pit of that same year..

 

[Armchair detective]

I do not how he came to such a conclusion. After the accession of James I in 1603, Bacon was knighted, then created Baron Verulam in 1618 and Viscount St Alban in 1621. He had no heirs, and so both titles became extinct on his death of pneumonia in 1626 at the age of 65. He is buried at St Michael's Church, St Albans, Hertfordshire.

View attachment 2177576
Here is crest below.

View attachment 2177577

Well what can I say.

But it does nightlight the problem any serious researcher now facing the original treasure story is sinking under the weight of conspiracy theories.
There is so many unfounded claims been have been taken as true and re-posted as fact.

Sadly for me with all the enthusiasm Robot had the only thing he achieved was bury the topic in confusing swamp conspiracy theories.

Crow

Facts ... Facts ...Facts.

Crow you ruin everything !!!

My turn. Check out ROBOT'S thread #1978
It looks real but is it true?

Very suggestive.

 

[Crow]

Truth be told

For me I do not like the term Hoax as for me personally I think it was never orchestrated as hoax. Maybe later generation after the first three alleged discovers. Saw it as way to get investors.

If story was true was more delusion more than anything. But the problems we have all the key player was dead who made the discovery. Maybe later the story evolved to become a money making source? But for me I see NO evidence of the alleged original people involved made any money from it.

Facts ... Facts ...Facts.

Crow you ruin everything !!!

My turn. Check out ROBOT'S thread #1978
It looks real but is it true?

Very suggestive.

Armchair

Great find. As silly as it sounds Its easy for treasure stories to evolve into folklore and uproot themselves to a different. location.

We can make clever speculations for for and against the story of Oak island.

The fact remains New England was rife with buried treasure stories connected with Captain Kidd as in years after his execution his treasure became folklore. Every coastal village has a legend. Fleeing new England loyalists would of brought these traditions to Nova Scotia.

A classic example is loot Lima shifted from being buried in Cocos island and sudden there is claim that it buried in Queenscliff Victoria Australia. Pirate treasure legends of buried treasure can shift as people move to different regions and folklore follows.

July 12, 1790 - The Pennsylvania Packet
(Originally appeared in July 2, 1790 edition of the Connecticut Gazette)

Is is easy of course to see similarities between both stories. Early newspaper stories connected William Kidd to the Oak island story. When that was shown to be implausible it quietly dropped from the prospectus and oak island became fabled mystery treasure.

One thing I have always found ludicrous and ironic as it serves no purpose in hiding treasure is to have a stone stating "here lies treasure or money?"

People hid valuables so others cannot find it. Not to have sign dig here to find treasure?

Crow

 

[Armchair detective]

Truth be told

For me I do not like the term Hoax as for me personally I think it was never orchestrated as hoax. Maybe later generation after the first three alleged discovers. Saw it as way to get investors.

If story was true was more delusion more than anything. But the problems we have all the key player was dead who made the discovery. Maybe later the story evolved to become a money making source? But for me I see NO evidence of the alleged original people involved made any money from it.



Armchair

Great find. As silly as it sounds Its easy for treasure stories to evolve into folklore and uproot themselves to a different. location.

We can make clever speculations for for and against the story of Oak island.

The fact remains New England was rife with buried treasure stories connected with Captain Kidd as in years after his execution his treasure became folklore. Every coastal village has a legend. Fleeing new England loyalists would of brought these traditions to Nova Scotia.

A classic example is loot Lima shifted from being buried in Cocos island and sudden there is claim that it buried in Queenscliff Victoria Australia. Pirate treasure legends of buried treasure can shift as people move to different regions and folklore follows.

July 12, 1790 - The Pennsylvania Packet
(Originally appeared in July 2, 1790 edition of the Connecticut Gazette)

View attachment 2177773

Is is easy of course to see similarities between both stories. Early newspaper stories connected William Kidd to the Oak island story. When that was shown to be implausible it quietly dropped from the prospectus and oak island became fabled mystery treasure.

One thing I have always found ludicrous and ironic as it serves no purpose in hiding treasure is to have a stone stating "here lies treasure or money?"

People hid valuables so others cannot find it. Not to have sign dig here to find treasure?

Crow

My battery is dying so I'll be quick.
The story is interesting, but even more so
Is the fact that at least two US papers were operating in 1790, a possible source of facts concerning OI during the origin story.
Is this a rare thing?

 

[Crow]

The problem is that newspaper is similar to the later claims of oak island story. Its not valid report of treasure being found at oak island. Even thou some things sound familiar. Southampton South Shore was in Rode island. On the north island Gardeners island where real treasure was recovered there

Connecticut is famous for Captain Kidd stories. Charles Island - Milford, New York Harbor. Money Island - Branford. Ocean Beach - New London Lion's Rock - Old Lyme At Lion’s Rock, near Old Lyme, Connecticut,

There are some 45 buried treasure tales of Captain Kidd alone most around the area of Wiscasset alone. Maine in Lincoln County as well.

So New England was well versed in Kidd's treasure tales and many believed them to be true. Even even the rare treasure hoards was found and not connected to Kidd. People would attributed to him anyway.. Hoards was buried by unknown people who lived and died. Like this hoard alleged found in Connecticut below.

It not hard to see people making wild speculations about it. Oak island was no different.

Since the original three were dead.


Crow




.

 

[Crow]

John smith of Oak Island. died September 1857. He was born in 1775 Boston, Suffolk County, Massachusetts, USA.Death 29 Sep 1857 (aged 81–82)
He is buried Old Baptist Burial Ground Chester, Lunenburg County, Nova Scotia, Canada..

Crow

 

[Armchair detective]

The problem is that newspaper is similar to the later claims of oak island story. Its not valid report of treasure being found at oak island. Even thou some things sound familiar. Southampton South Shore was in Rode island. On the north island Gardeners island where real treasure was recovered there

Connecticut is famous for Captain Kidd stories. Charles Island - Milford, New York Harbor. Money Island - Branford. Ocean Beach - New London Lion's Rock - Old Lyme At Lion’s Rock, near Old Lyme, Connecticut,

There are some 45 buried treasure tales of Captain Kidd alone most around the area of Wiscasset alone. Maine in Lincoln County as well.

So New England was well versed in Kidd's treasure tales and many believed them to be true. Even even the rare treasure hoards was found and not connected to Kidd. People would attributed to him anyway.. Hoards was buried by unknown people who lived and died. Like this hoard alleged found in Connecticut below.

View attachment 2177787

It not hard to see people making wild speculations about it.


Crow

Now that you mention it, it does read like a "Letter to the Editor".
It has been suggested that one of the original three traveled to where the newspaper was, read it, and was inspired to play a hoax.
Some newspapers are fact driven, some are sensationalistic rags - must read the whole paper to know what you got.
So what do we got?

 

[Crow]

Now that you mention it, it does read like a "Letter to the Editor".
It has been suggested that one of the original three traveled to where the newspaper was, read it, and was inspired to play a hoax.
Some newspapers are fact driven, some are sensationalistic rags - must read the whole paper to know what you got.
So what do we got?

I do not think for the three it was intentional hoax. ( They had nothing to really gain from it.) For them it was genuine mistaken belief that treasure was buried there. John was from Boston, Boston was full of captain Kidd buried treasure stories.

Macinnis was it appears on his land grant signed with an X gives and indication he was literate. Perhaps not well educated but still full of folklore of new England. And just made assumptions that buried treasure was at lot 18. John maybe better educated just convinced himself like the other that burned treasure was there.As with confirmational bias started reading too much is debris they dug up.

Crow

 

[Armchair detective]

Saw Pit would explain the shackle hanging in the tree, but not why they started digging there and or why it was one of the other guys who supposedly found the impression. Unless it was a hoax from the very beginning, but why did John Smith not find the impression on his own property. Maybe they found the impression and dug a ways and then decided they'd be better off owning that property in case there was a treasure there, hence J Smith buying it. I know some dates are all over the place but supposedly John Smith bought Lot 18 in 1795 from Casper W. . What I read claimed he bought the Lot in June of that year. Do we know what month Daniel McGinnis claims to have found what became the Money Pit of that same year..

I am reluctant to pass this tidbit on to you as the "well spring" source is highly suspect, but it does have one of the details you were looking for.
Robot post #1645.

 

[Armchair detective]

I do not think for the three it was intentional hoax. ( They had nothing to really gain from it.) For them it was genuine mistaken belief that treasure was buried there. John was from Boston, Boston was full of captain Kidd buried treasure stories.

Macinnis was it appears on his land grant signed with an X gives and indication he was literate. Perhaps not well educated but still full of folklore of new England. And just made assumptions that buried treasure was at lot 18. John maybe better educated just convinced himself like the other that burned treasure was there.As with confirmational bias started reading too much is debris they dug up.

Crow

It looks like J Smith was a believer considering which and where he bought properties.
Regarding your Samuel Ball map, can't help noticing the increase in property values post 1799. A reason for a hoax, or happy coincidence?

 

[Crow]

Anthony Vaughn jr born

Anthony Vaughn Sr is recorded being wheel right. And later in 1838 Anthony Vaughn Jr recorded being a copper ( barrel maker ) Both worked in the timber industry as well as farming.

If the 1795 date of alleged discovery was correct Anthony Vaughn Jr was about 13 years old at the time. He was youngest of trio. Native born in Chester. To him hearing stories of buried treasure of Donald Machinists and John Smith both who would have had oral traditions of Captain Kidd. Would at 13 been the most impressionable.

So Anthony Vaughn Jr Born 25th Aug 1782 probably Died March 1860? ( another document possibly a typo say 1880 ) followed along convinced like the other two was treasure was there. here is more about Vaughan family.

It is claimed According to family history Vaughn family. Among the very first Oak Island lot owners was Anthony Vaughan Sr. he died in 1835. He acquired Lot Nos. 15 and 17 in 1765 and then Lot No. 14 in 1781 – the same year that Anthony’s brother Daniel bought Lot No. 13. The Vaughn (or Vaughan) family history says that Anthony Sr. and Daniel moved from Duchess County NY to settle in the Chester area in the 1760’s.

The two brothers had equal shares in a saw mill somewhere in the local area? Possibly, they bought the island lots to have access to the timber for their mill. So you theory about saw pit. So if that was true? What Macinnis saw in 1795 was perhaps the remains remains of early saw pit actives?

In 1791 Daniel Vaughn sold his mill shares to his brother Anthony SR , he sold his Oak Island lot to Nathanial Melvin and he moved to Newport, NS. Then in 1793 Daniel moved to St. Martins in the newly formed province of New Brunswick, where he received a large grant of land from the Crown.

Daniel Vaughn and his family started a ship-building business in St. Martins. Daniel’s son David Vaughn launched their first ship in 1803, the "Rachel", and other ships quickly followed. The Vaughn's built ships, and they sailed and traded very successfully. At the peak of their success, the Vaughn business had offices in seven ports around the world – including New York, Seattle and Liverpool.

Anthony Vaughn Sr died in 1835. And Anthony Vaughn Jr died in 1860? It has been claimed in 1849 Anthony Vaughan tells the facts of Oak Island as he knows them to Robert Creelman. Who starts the Truro company. Simon Lynds was part of earlier attempts.

Who was Simon Lynds? Some say he was doctor the document below suggests he was wheel right. Anthony Vaughn sr was Wheel right so that is most likely how he met Anthony Vaughn jr who was working as Cooper.

It appears we was born 16th of November 1774 and died August 16th in 1897.

By then the lure of buried treasure worked it magic. And each group that followed each other kept deluding themselves there was treasure there to begin with.

I person think it was never intentional hoax but a grand delusion ever would be treasure hunter bought into. Everyone who got involved in it was repeated the same mistake of cognitive bias that buried treasure was there to begin with. .

Even with highly trained and educated people this cognitive bias can happen. even academics. Selective perception can lead to incorrect hypothesis, such as a belief that an event had supernatural or unexplained causes. In like flying an aircraft, such a belief system can lead to false assumptions. Cognitive bias plays a role in most aircraft accidents in one way or another, and each accident will have various factors.

You have deluded treasure hunters following deluded other treasure hunter after following deluded treasure hunting in one viscous circle.

Cognitive bias is easy to fall into and the thing is many people fall into it. Even with the most educated individual. And the scary thing is most people do not even no they are doing it.

For me Oak Island and Dutchman story is classic lessons of cognitive bias.

Even with earliest newspaper accounts people was shaking their heads. See Liverpool transcripts.



Crow

 

[Crow]

It looks like J Smith was a believer considering which and where he bought properties.
Regarding your Samuel Ball map, can't help noticing the increase in property values post 1799. A reason for a hoax, or happy coincidence?

Armchair I have bought and sold many properties. It very rare you lose on property unless you over paid for it. Value goes up other time. There is cases where value decrease with economic decline but over all land values go up. Especially if its improved upon year after after year. So no mystery there.

The fisheries was a increasing off shore and boom was taking place in fishing industry. Luneburg was starting boat building and demand for barrels increasing with fisheries.

No reason for Hoax or coincidence. Land values went us in Luneburg and so did land around Luneburg. Oak island was no exception.

Crow

 

[Armchair detective]

Armchair I have bought and sold many properties. It very rare you lose on property unless you over paid for it. Value goes up other time. There is cases where value decrease with economic decline but over all land values go up. Especially if its improved upon year after after year. So no mystery there.

The fisheries was a increasing off shore and boom was taking place in fishing industry. Luneburg was starting boat building and demand for barrels increasing with fisheries.

No reason for Hoax or coincidence. Land values went us in Luneburg and so did land around Luneburg. Oak island was no exception.

Crow

Is wheelwright an apprentice/journeyman/master trade,
each level being about 7 years?
Seems like sending an apprentice and a journeyman out to get lumber out of a sawpit is exactly the type of "low on the totem pole" they would have to do.

 

[Crow]

Is wheelwright an apprentice/journeyman/master trade,
each level being about 7 years?
Seems like sending an apprentice and a journeyman out to get lumber out of a sawpit is exactly the type of "low on the totem pole" they would have to do.

In essence A Sawyer is a workman whose business it is to saw timber, esp. in a saw-pit. A Carpenter is ‘An artificer in wood’ as distinguished from a joiner, cabinet-maker, etc., one who does the heavier and stronger work in wood, as the framework of houses, ships, etc.A wheelwright is a man who makes wheels and wheeled vehicles. A cooper made barrels. In early times in rural area some times you have to be all of those.

Over time the jobs became more specialized as the population grew . A carpenter, joiner or wheel wright or even copper did not need to be cutting trees down saw them or transport them.

Between 1800 and 1900 there was 69 saw mills around Luneburg and Chester in Luneburg country. Here is a list of just some.

Source of information was from document below written in 1959.

The countryside is littered with early saw pits and until they evolved into water driven saw mills. Vaughn's saw milling operation was long gone before 1800. Simply There was no need as many other operations was springing up.

.
Your Topic question about was the alleged money pit a possible saw pit? was valid one was an earlier saw pit taken totally out context as buried treasure site then the three Smith. Macinnis and Vaghn with cognitive bias looked from things that was not just there. Creating the ongoing delusion we have today. So quite possible. Amigo

Crow

 

[n2mini]

but... If they were in the logging business you would think they knew what a saw pit was back then. Granted I'm not sure how common they were and when used time frame wise. They owned a Lot right beside the MP Lot 18 and if that was a Saw Pit being used to clear that lot they would have had a clear line of sight to see. At the very least they should have known what it was once the Daniel boy found the impression and tackle hanging in tree, but yet John Smith had either just bought the Lot or bought it soon after the discovery of impression.. Why?

 

[Crow]

but... If they were in the logging business you would think they knew what a saw pit was back then. Granted I'm not sure how common they were and when used time frame wise. They owned a Lot right beside the MP Lot 18 and if that was a Saw Pit being used to clear that lot they would have had a clear line of sight to see. At the very least they should have known what it was once the Daniel boy found the impression and tackle hanging in tree, but yet John Smith had either just bought the Lot or bought it soon after the discovery of impression.. Why?

In answer to your questions Both Macinnis and Smith was from Boston farmers from new England. those areas was extensively logged long before both of them was born.. Oak Island was and surrounding area was virtual wilderness of trees. So for the them concept of saw pit was not familiar. Vaughn was just a impressionable kid barely 13.

You ask why john bought the property two reasons he bought into delusion of buried treasure just as the others did. Its called cognitive bias. Once the believe of treasure was in their minds any other possibilities went out the window.

Grab a brew i got yarn to tell you about cognitive bias going back WW2.

Crow

 

[Crow]

In the winter war with Russia against Finland in 1930. The Russians far superior in numbers camped onto top of mountain to to strategically hold the higher ground in mid winter.

It was entire division over 9000 men. The dug in on top of the hill top. The Finnish Army had retreated lower down in the forests . and locals legends tell of strange superstitious happening on the mountain.

During the night the fins in forest was freezing but the Russians on mountain tops was much colder. And was in the process of exposure in confusion as their clothing was not designed for 50 below zero. they as anticipating and an attack by the Finns.

Even for Finns dug in forests below it freezing night. But during the night they heard hour after hour ferocious of explosions and gunfire screaming and explosions. The finish army could not understand who the hell was attacking the Russians of the hill top.

The next morning the finish army went to the mountain top and found thousands of Russians dead blown to bits with frozen horror on their faces. The was much embarrassment with soviets as they had through cognitive bias unable to see the enemy in the dark freezing night began believing they was under attack but in effect they was killing each over thinking they was being overrun in blind terror in the darkness as the chain of command collapsed and bind panic tool hold. The more they shot one another the more their confrontational bias made them believed they was under attack.

That is an extreme case of cognitive bias.

Yet there was other case with fight crews watch air crash investigation. ( My Favorite Show! ) Even very smart people can fixate on one thing blind to all else.

Even treasure hunters get it. I am not ashamed to say I had. It took years working on that in my research. Many people have it on treasure net and do not know they have it. So once the fixate on some thing they are blind to all else. Even academics can have it. Dangerous of all is pilots in aircraft as the critical thinking. That of course is in the extreme.

Yet the fact we have both Macinnis and Smith book well aware of the folklore in regards to stories of William Kidd buried treasure stories and the story of old man claiming to have buried treasure in the back of their mind. from New England Encounter the remains of an old saw pit.

but due to their inexperience with seeing partially filled saw pits, Macinnis perhaps implanted the idea in Smith from Boston there was buried treasure there because block and tackle etc and so sparked the cognitive bias that was buried treasure there. Vaughan a 13 year kid impressionable fell into line with idea of buried treasure.

And so every who became involved repeated the process of indoctrination blind to all else one after another. Even to present day. Even now this point in time people believe unwavering treasure was there. Because these people once set on a idea they they look for even slightest unconvincing clues to support their hypothesis and ignore all else.

In 40 years of research meeting many treasure hunters all over globe I have seen it time and time again.

As classic example; is in the Philippines is Yamashita treasure. How many oak island like cold bar money pits have been dug in the Philippines. All finding positive signs in the blind belief they are digging up buried treasure. All using cognitive bias to positively reinforce their belief.

The curse of oak island TV show does the same thing finding an supposed clue ending with the next show only to repeat the process all keeping the mystery alive making a mystery out of nothing. Even with critics of oak island on thios website some times they had overlooked a fact that believers was correct with thier own Confirmational Bias. I saw it here in the Oak island forum.

Its the same process as with religions and cults work they suck you in you become a believer blind to all else. Anything that does not fit narrative they conveniently ignore.

It happens amigos more often than you think?

Crow

 

[releventchair]

There comes a time in every rightly constructed boy's life when he has a raging desire to go somewhere and dig for hidden treasure.


Mark Twain