Did a Sawpit start the Legend?

[Crow]

This is common mistake being made by the latest batch of historians in universities today. Because universities are increasingly profit driven. Then churn people out with degrees. Especially in humanities department.

The humanities history professor have to publish their own work every year and then mark student thesis. Professors are under increasing pressure to mark various thesis some times 30 -40 papers with thousands pages thesis to read . Which is incredibly time consuming hunting down references. Often references are overlooked because of time constraints. So what has happened identity politics have seemed to have into Historical research dictated by cognitive bias.

In many papers we get references quoted? We only get the authors interpretation of what is being said and not what actually is being said.

So some times things that are claimed fact are not facts at all.

Some times they use other peoples research with out fact checking the reference they give.


That is why researching is very hard.

Crow

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Treasure of Victoria Peak - Grab it through Amazon!

[Crow]

Another thing oral histories are plagued with inaccuracies. For an example my dear old mother's as honest as honest could be.

Her oral history told to me as child gradually changed over time, as she gold older and her cognitive memory declined. She added and deleted things and the subconscious imagination starting filling the gaps posing as memory.

This is common and happens to us all over time.
Add that to several generations of cognitive decline in in retelling a story in which memories add things without realizing it. So oral history is vertually worthless.

All we get in archives are a date of what was claimed at at a given time. Birth death and Marriage records as we land tax and other records can help build a picture of what was happening at a time.

The trouble with oak island story its been polluted with asumptions presented as facts. Go to archives you discover there is not as much as claimed.

Crow

 

[TruthbeTold]

Actual facts always get in the way of a fictional treasure story.

 

[Crow]

Actual facts always get in the way of a fictional treasure story.

The fact remains people did search for treasure but everything got blown out proportion. Oak Island is not the only example.

Like The Dutchman story is another blown entirely out of proportion to become folklore in itself. Hell both of great stories legends etc..a great yarn

I am one of those crazy anal people actually has the time to research them.

I spent 40 such years research stories all over the world. 99% are just stories. but there are some that are the real deal.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Armchair

In ancestory.com website. A poster Posted 17 Mar 2022 by kashina claims the following.

Lot 1

· 1785- John Cochrane to Alexander Pattillo

· 1794- Donald McGinnis

· 1859- James McInnis

Lot 2

· 1780- Edward Smith to Robert Melvin

· 1819- David Vaughan

Lot 3

· 1832- David Vaughan to Daniel McInnis

Lot 4

· 1786- John Kinghorn to Alexander McNeill

· 1793- John Martin to Anthony Vaughn

· 1804- Thomas Embree

· 1807- George Bezanson

· 1809- Anthony Vaughn

· 1831- James McInnis

Lot 5

· Before 1809- James Vaughan

· 1809- Est James Vaughan to David Vaughan

· 1832- Anthony Graves

Lot 6 ***

· 1768- Phillip Payzant to Robert Melvin

· 1811 Jacob Shephard to Nathanial Melvin

· 1812- Samuel Ball

Lot 7 ***

· 1767- John Secombe to Robert Melvin

· 1811- Jacob Shepard to Nathaniel Melvin

· 1812- Samuel Ball

Lot 8 ***

· 1784- Jonathon Prescott to Robert Melvin

· 1798- Samuel Ball

Lot 9

· 1793- Martin Marshall to Neal McMullen

Lot 10

· 1793- Martin Marshall to Neal McMullen

Lot 11

· 1781- James Webber to Daniel Vaughan

· 1789- Neal McMullen

Lot 12

· 1781- James Monro to Robert Melvin

Lot 13

· 1790- Robert Vaughan to Nathaniel Melvin

· 1806- Neal McMullen

Lot 14

· 1701- James Webber to Daniel Vaughan

· 1790- Nathaniel Melvin

· 1806- Neal McMullen

· 1818- David Melvin

Lot 15

· 1818- Grant to David W. Crandall

· 1819- John Smith

Lot 16

· 1798- Mary Malay to John Smith

Lot 17

· 1790- Anthony Vaughan to Nathaniel Melvin

· 1806- John Smith

Lot 18

· 1795- Casper Wallenhaupt to John Smith

Lot 19

· 1768- Edward smith to Timothy Zink

· 1819- Est James Vaughan to David Vaughan

· 1825- John Smith

Lot 20

· 1791- Alex McNeil to Edward James

· 1797 John Bezanson

· 1807- John Smith

Lot 21

· 1791- Alex McNeal to Edward James

· 1859- Daniel McInnis to James McInnis

Lot 22 ***

· 1784- Jonathan Prescott to Robert Melvin

· 1796- Jacob Melvin to Daniel McKinnon

· 1807- John Bezanson to Samuel Ball

Lot 23

· 1784- William Bowie to Hector McLean

· 1788- Donald McInnis

Lot 24 ***

· 1785- Duncan Smith to Ambrose Peters

· 1791- John Munro

· 1799- Samuel Ball (including buildings)

Lot 25 ***

· 1787- William Hopkins to Samuel Ball

Lot 26 ***

· 1788 James Anderson to Samuel Ball

Lot 27

· 1778- Jeremiah Rogers to David Ellis

· 1791- Alexander Pattillo to Donald McInnis

Lot 28

· 1800- James Sharp to Donald McInnis

Lot 29

· 1766-Moses Holt

· 1778- David Ellis

· 1796- John Monro

Lot 30 ***

· John Pulsifer

· 1810- Samuel Ball

Lot 31 ***

· 1783- Jacob Hatt

· John Bezanson

· 1807- Samuel Ball

Lot 32 ***

· 1807John Bezanson

· 1809- Samuel Ball (Granted for Service to the King)



*** NB: Also owned by Samuel Ball

Hook Island

100 acre lot on mainland

Here is my beef The poster Gave in 2022 no reference to where they obtained the references. Did she or he copy them from Robots post or Did He Copy of Her?

And is it the same list?

Some thing to think about?

Crow

 

[Crow]

There same poster claims the following time line.

1755

(April) Slave traders capture young African woman, prepare her for shipment to South Carolina

(July 26) Slave traders Austin & Laurens hold auction, selling 203 Africans. Among them is a 16-year-old girl from the Gambia region of West Africa. Henry Laurens purchases the girl and names her Coomba Laurens.

1757

(October) Coomba Laurens first appears in Ball family records after Henry Austin deeds her to his brother-in-law, John Coming Ball.

1759

Coomba gives birth to first child, a boy John Coming Ball names “Stepney.”

1761

Coomba gives birth to second child, a boy John Coming Ball names “Sambo.” ...



Samuel Ball Property



Samuel Ball was born into slavery in South Carolina around 1761 and was given the last name of his owner. He escaped slavery during the Revolutionary War and joined the British forces in 1780. He served in New York and New Jersey and he found himself in Shelburne in 1783, where he apparently remained for two years. At some point he made his way to Chester.

An advertisement in 1791 by the Sierre Leone Company offered Black Loyalists free passage back to their home country. We can speculate that Samuel felt his life in Nova Scotia was much better than the potential hardship of an Atlantic crossing to a country he did not know.

In an 1809 petition for land he stated that he was a resident on Oak Island for 23 years (1786). He acquired Lot 25 in 1787 and Lot 26 in 1788. Samuel married in 1795 and he and his wife Mary had three children, two of whom died in infancy. Samuel Ball died on the island in 1846. There is no record of where he is buried.

The problem is with no proper references we do not know if it is true or some ones invented delusion or race based agenda?

Crow

 

[Crow]

Here is a BIO at find a a grave.

Born in South Carolina in 1765 to a very poor black family, Samuel was born into a life of misery, a hopeless life with no future. His family were in fact, slaves for the rich landlords of the infamous southern plantations.

Black men were offered promises by the British forces during the American Revolution and none were so promising than the chance for some land and to be free. Adopting the name of his former master, Ball went to New York serving with General Henry Clinton and then spent some time in the Jersey's where he served until the end of the war on January 14, 1784 with the signing of the Treaty of Paris. It was also reported that he served some time with Lord Cornwallis after the war. From here, Ball made his way to Shelburne Nova Scotia and lived there for two years.

Unhappy with his treatment in Shelburne, he then moved to Chester where it is reported he lived for 23 years. He bought a piece of land on Oak Island and then was granted 4 acres more at lot number 32. As time went on, he eventually owned around 100 acres of land, and an island called Hook Island, today called Sam's Island, along with his farm on Oak Island consisting of around 36 acres.

In 1795, Samuel Ball married a young woman, Mary, from Halifax who worked as a domestic for Treasurer Wallace. They had three children, Andrew (1798), Samuel (1801) and Mary (1805) all born in Chester. Among his many friends, he could count on one of the treasure hunters, Anthony Vaughan who was named as executor of his will. On Lot 25 on Oak Island, Samuel and his family built a house and worked the land, they broke it into ploughed acreage and raised crops. He also maintained cattle and made a good living on this famous island, cut firewood, and breathed the clear salty air. The foundation of his home can bee seen on Oak Island to today. Somewhere along the way, his wife Mary was no more, history does not record her passing or reason for the absence from the family. In his will of 1846 he speaks of his wife Catherine.

***********************************

1846. Will of Samuel Ball, Oak Island, Book 1, pg.37, Dated 1 Oct. 1841, Probated 5 Jan. 1846, wit. John Barkhouse Sr., James Brewer, George Keddy and John Zwicker, Gold River. Executors Rev. Joseph Dimock, Anthony Vaughan and wife Catherine. After funeral expenses etc.

I Give my wife, Catherine, the furniture, wearing apparel and all Real and Personal Estate during her life. First, situated and lying between lands owned by John Berghaus and Daniel Mc Innis, containing about 100 acres; also an Island called Hook Island containing 3 acres, all my farm at Oak Island containing ?? acres more or less. All Cultivated Land during her life and then to Mrs. Best until her
decease.

Grandson, Simeon, to have the half of the 100 acre lot between John Barkhouse and Daniel Mc Innis, the Ploughed Land, house and barn from John Mc Innis's line.

I give all my real estate and personal estate, the half of the 100 acre lot to my servant Isaac Butler, if he takes the name Ball, if he dies without male issue it is to go to friend Henry Joudrey's son, Alexander William, and if he dies without male issue to Isaac Parsons' son. None shall possess same unless they take the name Ball.

Mrs. Elizabeth Best to be comfortably maintained during her
life, and if she should survive his wife she is to have control of house and farm during her life.

If grandson dies without male issue the land results to Isaac Butler. After decease of wife and Mrs Best, the Executors to give cattle to the amount of £ 15 to the Bible Society.

Once again no sources no references.


Crow

 

[Crow]

Here is Balls marriage in Chester 1806.

Crow

 

[Crow]

In nova Scotia archives
in Census Returns, Assessment and Poll Tax Records 1767-1838.

Shows three mentions.

Oak Island, Lunenburg County — 1791
Chester, Lunenburg County — 1793
Chester, Lunenburg County — 1795

That is the only mention of him.

In nova Scotia archives.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Here is an alleged unverified document by the poster alleged descendant on Ancestry.

Its allegedly gives the properties Ball purchased. Is it real and not fabrication? It gives the prices paid for each property roughly around a 120 pounds in all. So if the about document genuine in which I am dubious. ( Not an archival document )

Then the notion that Ball bought land from a share treasure is just fanciful wishful thinking.

Ball Acquired his land over 35 years. The 100 pounds back money had acquired went a long way in paying for those properties.

Don't get me wrong Ball was success in his own way. He had done very well. But 120 pounds is long way off the mark of the alleged 2 million pounds recovered?

Crow

 

[Crow]

Another to be aware of people who become obsessed that they related to various people and once again people make connection to things that are not really there. Once again we are faced cognitive bias.

Ancestry anyone can contribute document or photos but like Find a grave its not vexed. So while a helpful source one must question the accuracy of such claims.

Others do it for attention seeking or for their 15 minutes of fame I seen and met them all. As soon as I ask some detailed awkward question's they shut up as as they know their fantasy is going to be exposed.

I just want to find the truth either the story is false or true. Its the true stories I am interested in not the fantasies.

Crow

 

[Crow]

The answer where Robot might of got his list from in 2017 post below

Book 1, pg.37, Dated 1 Oct. 1841,

Sources:

— The Blacks of Nova Scotia by Cherene Naugler

She is retired teacher that live on the South Shore? Interest i cannot find a book reference number or library number for this book. The Blacks of Nova Scotia by Cherene Naugler)

* Note anyone wishing to research further the following 399 The Blacks of Lunenburg County
Naugler, Cherene Nova Scotia; Lunenburg County; Black; Culture; People; Genealogy

This book or document is at the Desbirsey research library as of 15th of July 2022.

1994 Research on early black residents of Lunenburg County. Updated Feb. 1997 - see copies A-D

Iin regards to that quote below I am not sure its in her book or another book or record?

— The will of Samuel Ball, book 1 page 37 ( What can I say that is not a proper reference page 37 of what?)

— The Oak Island Mystery by Reginald Harris

— History of the County of Lunenburg by Mather Byles Desbrisay

Those three books might a give the reference source of where they got the information of Samuel ball. For anyone interested Oak island I suggest you hunt down those books to help found what historical documents they used and where they are. And perhaps at least answer and clarify some claims and disprove others.

If there is no references to claims then how do know what was being claimed is true?

Crow

 

[n2mini]

I too are just trying to look at both sides of the story. But even you can see how depending on what and where your reading/researching stuff you find different info. Won't call it facts as to the whole who knows at this point kind of thing and info/records were/are all over the place. Yesterday when I mentioned SB comes across as being "some what" well off I was shown the paper work as to where he got 100 pounds ( 3 years worth of average pay ) and was told that owning land doesn't mean he had money and that it was virtually given away if they deemed you worthy of it type thing. Well now your finding info as to him paying 120 pounds for his lands.. Yes his Servant as he is called in a previous post his name was Butler but isn't that also what a servant is, maid, butler, servant, helper etc... Usually get paid. Sure in your situation with a student that is somewhat common in todays world, or to atleast get a reduced rent but that is mainly in college town areas. I'm sure it happens else where but I'm 58 years old and have never known anyone in my area to be doing it on either side of that. Owner/renter.. and I live in the Triad of NC with high schools and colleges all around me.. I'd assume it is happening just never known anyone to be taken part in it..
Someone yesterday mention there is no account of an Onslow Company. Yet they are written about in every OI story. First Company to come in and dig after the locals.. I'm not sure if it was an actual company prior to coming to OI. I was thinking it was some people who contract wise formed this company to have an hierarchy within it on the dig..

 

[Crow]

Here A document I cannot get access I am sure iI would clarify one way or another some of the claims.

In regards of the alleged payment of property 120 pounds as I stated I am not sure of validity of the document. how Ever AS I stated the source of those claims appears to be from ton of the three books in previous post..

Crow

 

[n2mini]

but that is what I'm getting at. Records and info is all over the place and some are written as if fact and they are not or may not be just as some people do on here.. I don't think anyone just gave him 100 acres of land on mainland. He had to pay something for it. A lot here or there maybe but not 100 acres..
Even your post above says it is a "list compiled by" "under the direction of" so that looks like they are trying to compile thru records and make a official list/document maybe.. So even that could end up being their best guess on some stuff, based on the info they can find at the time...

 

[Crow]

but that is what I'm getting at. Records and info is all over the place and some are written as if fact and they are not or may not be just as some people do on here.. I don't think anyone just gave him 100 acres of land on mainland. He had to pay something for it. A lot here or there maybe but not 100 acres..
Even your post above says it is a "list compiled by" "under the direction of" so that looks like they are trying to compile thru records and make a official list/document maybe.. So even that could end up being their best guess on some stuff, based on the info they can find at the time...

Hello N2mini

I understand your point. is this real?

I can find no archival record to back up these claims. The only source is post 52 in one of those books might give a reference to where the above information came from.

One thing with the real documents there is Donald Macinnis signed his name with an x with gives a good indication that he was most likely illiterate. Samuel Ball sign his name that gives me an indication that Samuel ball had some education at least.

There is a document Samuel Ball claimed below compensation of loss during his time in new York.

There is much we cannot substantiate even the alleged will. I have not found an original. Or even deed that ball even owned land to begin with?

Crow

 

[Crow]

I am now in Record of deeds, 1775-1912; land grants, 1854-1968; indexes, 1759-1968

There are thousands and thousands of pages to go through just in Luneburg Country alone . They are not alphabetical order so you have to go through them individually.

So I might be gone awhile.....

here is an example what they look like. Left hand corner who owned and who sold it to at what date etc.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Just side note

Probate records are an invaluable but often overlooked resource for family history research. These are the records created upon the death of individuals who have drawn up a valid Last Will and Testament, or in the absence of a Will have left sufficient real and personal property to require settlement of their estate by administrators. The records created during this process are filed with the appropriate Probate Registry, one for each of Nova Scotia's eighteen counties; estate settlement processes are determined and regulated by the provincial Court of Probate.

In the early days, most people did not have sufficient real or personal property to warrant writing a Will. If your ancestor did leave one, however, or if an estate file exists, with documents detailing the settlement of the estate, you will likely find a wealth of previously unknown family information.

Probate records for the province have been microfilmed for the period 1749-ca. 1960 for Wills; ca. 1930 for Estates; and are available for research at the Nova Scotia Archives. Within each county, the records are generally filed in two large groupings: Will Books and Estate Files, although there may be many series of related records as well. The Estate Files are further divided into Testate (being settled by a valid Will) or Intestate (no Will or the Will declared invalid). Item-level indexes are not always available, and the arrangement of the Estate Files, in particular, is frequently haphazard. Detailed finding aids are available to help researchers find their way. See Hours and Location to plan a visit.

Unfortunately they cannot be accessed online

Is Samuel Balls real will can be accessed then perhaps it will support the claims of wealth?

Crow

 

[n2mini]

That's roughly 135 pounds for all his land based on that document correct or not.
Wonder if back then there was some kind of "easement" as we call it now that allowed access to each lot, or did land owners not care if others crossed their property to get around on the island from the different lots they own, or to get to any main boat docking area..
Of course some of the owners don't actually live on the island..

 

[Armchair detective]

Was about to suggest that the detail in ROBOT'S post of how much was paid on the land sales indicate some kind of ACCOUNTING ledger like county governments use, but that dust plume
I am choking on is CROW way down that road already.

In the meantime, since proving a hoax is sorta the theme of this thread, how about we get a list of suspects who could have made money on or enjoyed a good hoax.
Anthony Vaughn
Daniel McGinnis
John Smith
Samuel Ball
Casper Wallenhaupt
Not even started.

There is a minor mystery regarding the ROBOT posts. He? had a theory that someone dug up the treasure in 1782, so he? was interested in people pulling up stakes between 1782 and 1802, hence the list. However, he missed some.
Lots 4, 16, 21, 22, 26, 29, and 30 also changed hands during that time frame.
Pretty sloppy?or something else

If memory serves, Daniel McGinnis owned a sawmill. To be successful, he must have gotten experience somewhere, like maybe starting in a sawpit??
Yeah, real thin, I know.
.