Death Traps??

[weekender]

Years ago when I was a lot younger I found me a nice little cache of Spanish Gold in nuggets and dust and a map in a lead cylinder showing other locations, from under a big rock that was shaped like a cross about 75 varas more or less from this site in the North/Western Mohave Desert (a area I know so well). This site has a Sand Trap & a Boulder Trap but No Treasure there. Frank Fish was busy in this area in the 1950's but apparently missed what I later found. Chuck Kenworthy was also busy in this area after meView attachment 1560566View attachment 1560568View attachment 1560569View attachment 1560570

Happy Trails,

Thanks for that, it is refreshing to see
someone put up a success story!!
-Weekender

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

..... it is refreshing to see
someone put up a success story!! ...

Did you read the subsequent explanation of what that vial likely was ?

 

[Crosse De Sign]

I'm totally game to admit that these things have been found. Just waiting to see the evidence. And the answer to the more plausible explanations (to said photos and stories) that I am offering you guys to the various evidences and photos you give.



Ok. Sure. I'll admit I haven't "dis-proved" anything. And I think you will admit that you haven't "proved" anything either. Right ?

And I have no doubt that people have "experienced" what you're saying. Depending on how you define "experience". Because to some people, seeing a certain rock, or finding a vial with a note in it, is .... to them .... proof positive "experience". Don't take this wrong, but there are people who claim to have experienced seeing Elvis alive, or being abducted by aliens, etc.... Please, don't take that as mockery. I'm only saying that "experience" is not the measure of reality. Only evidence is the proof of reality. People can "experience" all sorts of things which, under scrutiny, have more plausible explanations.



Sure. Nor have you proven anything. Sure, so too do you have words and presumption, opinion, thoughts, experiences. Why isn't this finger pointing both ways ?



He also said gold nuggets inside, eh? I had never heard of the mining markers having "nuggets" inside, so I decided to leave that out of the discussion . But let's cut to the chase: If, in fact, this simply, as I say, nothing but a later era (ie.: modern western) mining claim marker, then why wouldn't it be reasonable to assume there's "maps" in there ? AFTER ALL, that's the purpose, when you've gone to mark-out-the-corners of your claim is to (doh....) MAP it after all. Right ? Let him take the vial and the text on the rolled up little pieces of paper to a mining history authority. And I'll bet you dollars to donuts it's exactly what I'm saying it is.



This is an odd thing to say. Seeing as how you too are going to great lengths to uphold a contrasting/differing view as well. Then, logically, couldn't I say the same thing of your notions of being right? Perhaps you are right ! Perhaps I am right ! But the finger of "thinking one is right" points both ways. Does it not ? The issue then is: Who's got the evidence ? And who's got the more plausible explanations ? Name-calling (eg. "close-minded", etc...) is not "evidence"



If you go back to my post, you'll see that I acknowledge some people "stay mum". Sure. But ... then if no one can produce a single type treasure being found/produced by a particular type unconventional TH'ing method/origin (Jesuit/spanish + death trap + cryptogram), doesn't it ... uh ... raise a little bit of eyebrows ?

We can find an example of every single other type treasure in the news, or past banners, etc... But not this type. Is it all just coincidence ?



I have addressed this already. I'll address it again: You and I both know (because I'm assuming your an md'ing enthusiast, that mankind will loose and/or hide (and hence be found later) a representative example of whatever he owns or carries. Right ? So for example: If you're in France, you'll expect French coins. Right ? If your country carries/uses/owns silver coins, then you'll expect silver coins. Right ? Then why, oh why, oh why .... if the Spanish here (in CA for example) had all this gold some people allege, then why is there NEVER a representative sample in the archaeological or md'ing record ?



That's fine if you personally are not the type that shows off his trophies to his buddies. If you go fishing and land the lake's record trout, you'll just keep that to yourself? If you finally perform a triple back flip snow-ski'ing, you'll hope none of your friends caught it on video ? If you find a gold bar, you won't tell your detecting buddies ? Because to do any of these things would be to violate the Biblical commands against pride ?

Good points & answers, yes I may tell someone, hopefully not boast,
but the 3 fingers do always point back, when 1 is pointing, agreed.
It's just that telling or bragging, can also be detrimental.

I just don't think they were very careless, or caching much in & around
the CA. Missions, or, maybe they cached outside of the Missions, like
our friend HappyTrails55 had found. I guarantee you, without knowing
him, that he is smart enough to know the difference between mining
maps, & genuine Spanish Treasures locations Maps.

They were working to get it out of there, evidence: Spanish Trails east.
Of course the nature of the treasures, dictates the wisdom of revelation
of such. You got that right, & it probably will not very much change...

 

[Crosse De Sign]

First off, I'm not "angry". And as for "argumentative" : No more so than you . And the better word for me is "fascinated". Here's the reason (to answer your question) :

I teamed up with an immigrant from Mexico, to spend 3 weeks in Mexico looking for caches. The guy had awesome stories. That sounded sseeooo good. Each one was bullet proof true. Hence metal detectors would make child's play on finding some more, eh ?

I will not bore you with the full trip details. But ... suffice it to say, I started bumping into various cultural superstitions down there. And began to suspect that all the stories we'd gone down to chase, were nothing but ghost-stories and telephone game gone awry. Eg.: "flames" or "glows" that come from the mountains when there's treasure. Or dowsing and/or LRL that we need to buy before we leave the USA on our trip, from our common pot of travel $. (Please don't engage me in a debate on dowsing/LRL). Or the "proof" was someone had a vision or dream and a ghost told them, blah blah blah. I could go on and on, but I will spare you the details.

After I wised up to the silly-ness of what-they-consider proof of treasure, my guide challenged me. Ie..: he dug in his heels and persisted to bolster the notions. And to be quite honest with you, I only had feeble answers at that time. I'd never had to consider it before. So I set about studying and comparing it all. Not only beliefs of that type that come Latin countries, but also American, Filipino, etc.... I became fascinated with "how do people believe these things?" and "how do they respond when shown more plausible explanations ?

I hope that sheds a little light on my interest. If you want to hear the rest of my Mexican adventure , let me know

Yes it is odd, & seeming like superstition, the lights. Have you read Don Jose's
(Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp) story, of being told by locals in Mexico (when he
was in the US Border Patrol) of such things, tied to the robbery of a coach years
before, where I believe there was some loss of life involved, which puts the eerie
ghost story twist to it.

But he was told of a light glowing at night. Apparently, the local people either
didn't have detectors, or also were leery about seeking out such things. He
went to the spot of the reported lights, detected & found 2 bags of Reales,
of which he was given one of them. Somewhere along in that timeline, he
quit or had already left his job with the US Border Patrol, & I think has lived
there in Mexico ever since. I think he'd served in the US Air Force, in WWII
& other missions also, is still alive & well, & has not lived a boring life, and
continuing his Treasure Hunting activities, mining, & enjoying the benefits
of the weather, laid back atmosphere & lifestyle...

But the glowing light(s) at night, was definitely related to the metal in the ground.

Yes, I would like to hear more about your adventures in Mexico.
...

 

[HappyTrails55]

I'll show you all a BIG TREASURE, in my search for over 30 years in the Great North/Western Portion of the Mohave Desert, I found 3 separate Spanish Expeditions in a small area of the Upper Indian Wells Valley, North of Red Rock Canyon, where the Mohave meets the Southern Sierra's. 3 different Dates, 1665, 1685 and 1716. The latter 2 had the Black Robes with them (Jesuit). By the time I figured out where certain things were, the Government grabbed up all of the land and made it part of the Mohave Wilderness that was signed into Law by President Clinton in 1992, but I continued my quest not to find treasure now, but to figure out what was the TRUTH, so in 2000 I wrote a Book about it and then continued the Quest for another 7 years waiting for a certain Cycle* to occur, which happened in November 2007. So if you go to Treasure Legends and click on Aztec Gold, scroll down until you find the thread of my book, "THE RETURN OF THE GIANT SERPENT". Lot's of Info and Pictures and yes I do rely heavily on the Archaeology Reports as well, I have many, some not in the book. So I will put up here the Main Picture of My Book, I took in 1986 from "ROBBER'S ROOST", if you all can enlarge this photo, then do it, In the "HEART of the MTN." are 2 GIANT SPANISH CROSSES WITH TREASURE SYMBOLS, there's actually 3 Crosses in the Heart but only 2 are visible in this picture....But that's not all, there's ALOT in this Picture...On this book thread go to page 3, pic # 44 or page 11, # 151 to see the Spanish Crosses & Symbols....Oh yeah I forgot, there's Major Death Traps here, Spanish and ANCIENT....Being a outdoorsman my whole life, is it any wonder that I can read sign?

 

[Maverick1]

Kudos H.T.55, a life well spent. Hat Off to you.

 

[Crosse De Sign]

I'll show you all a BIG TREASURE, in my search for over 30 years in the Great North/Western Portion of the Mohave Desert, I found 3 separate Spanish Expeditions in a small area of the Upper Indian Wells Valley, North of Red Rock Canyon, where the Mohave meets the Southern Sierra's. 3 different Dates, 1665, 1685 and 1716. The latter 2 had the Black Robes with them (Jesuit). By the time I figured out where certain things were, the Government grabbed up all of the land and made it part of the Mohave Wilderness that was signed into Law by President Clinton in 1992, but I continued my quest not to find treasure now, but to figure out what was the TRUTH, so in 2000 I wrote a Book about it and then continued the Quest for another 7 years waiting for a certain Cycle* to occur, which happened in November 2007. So if you go to Treasure Legends and click on Aztec Gold, scroll down until you find the thread of my book, "THE RETURN OF THE GIANT SERPENT". Lot's of Info and Pictures and yes I do rely heavily on the Archaeology Reports as well, I have many, some not in the book. So I will put up here the Main Picture of My Book, I took in 1986 from "ROBBER'S ROOST", if you all can enlarge this photo, then do it, In the "HEART of the MTN." are 2 GIANT SPANISH CROSSES WITH TREASURE SYMBOLS, there's actually 3 Crosses in the Heart but only 2 are visible in this picture....But that's not all, there's ALOT in this Picture...On this book thread go to page 3, pic # 44 or page 11, # 151 to see the Spanish Crosses & Symbols....Oh yeah I forgot, there's Major Death Traps here, Spanish and ANCIENT....Being a outdoorsman my whole life, is it any wonder that I can read sign?View attachment 1561579View attachment 1561580View attachment 1561580View attachment 1561584

Awesome, thanks for showing this!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Yes it is odd, & seeming like superstition, the lights. Have you read Don Jose's
(Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp) story, of being told by locals in Mexico (when he
was in the US Border Patrol) of such things, tied to the robbery of a coach years
before, where I believe there was some loss of life involved, which puts the eerie
ghost story twist to it.

But he was told of a light glowing at night. Apparently, the local people either
didn't have detectors, or also were leery about seeking out such things. He
went to the spot of the reported lights, detected & found 2 bags of Reales,
of which he was given one of them. Somewhere along in that timeline, he
quit or had already left his job with the US Border Patrol, & I think has lived
there in Mexico ever since. I think he'd served in the US Air Force, in WWII
& other missions also, is still alive & well, & has not lived a boring life, and
continuing his Treasure Hunting activities, mining, & enjoying the benefits
of the weather, laid back atmosphere & lifestyle...

But the glowing light(s) at night, was definitely related to the metal in the ground.

Yes, I would like to hear more about your adventures in Mexico.
...

Hey there Crosse. Yes Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp and I have had some forum discussions in the past. And I have nothing but respect for him. And ... yes ... he *has* found at least that one cache that you speak of. And yes, he comes from the cultural perspectives of Mexico/Latin cultures. And has been a great asset to the forum discussions on many levels. Love his wit, etc...

As for cache in-question (granting that the story-was-as-said), the problem with attributing it to various TH'ing means : Watching for glows that emanate from the ground. Or someone used a "magic wand" to find it. Or ... a camera that claims to capture auras from gold etc.... Here's the problem with trying connect the dots between a method, and an eventual find:

If someone has a lead or a clue to a likely treasure. Then goes out to "likely looking spots" and "digs enough holes", AND THEN FINDS SOMETHING, he might attribute the success to the unconventional means. But think about it: If you are deliberately going out to hunt for goodies. In spots that have rumored reason. Around enough likely looking ruins, digging enough holes. And then ...... eventually stumble on a goodie : Is that a surprise ? So if you saw a glow (so you supposed) or waved a wand in the interim, then ... is the success really brought about by the odd-ball method ?

I mean, history is FILLED with accidental discoveries of goodies. How much more-so then, will there be goodies found , when intentionally looking ?

And as long as we're talking about Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp : He and I had long talks about the specifics of some Latin american notions and TH'ing psychologies. And he has agreed with me on the silly-ness that can grow out of them. And that scores of the "great stories" are nothing but silly-ness .

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... By the time I figured out where certain things were, the Government grabbed up all of the land and made it part of the Mohave Wilderness that was signed into Law by President Clinton in 1992, but I continued my quest not to find treasure now, but to figure out what was the TRUTH, ...

Happy-trails55, I can not read the print of the article you posted (too small). But going by the above commentary here :

I'm assuming that no treasures have come to the surface, right ? You were narrowing down in on the mother load. But then ........ the land got put off-limits. Right ? So you can't retrieve the treasure. Interestingly, the dates (1600's) and locations (indian wells valley) you cite, predate the supposed earliest permanent European toe-hold in alta CA. So if your theories are correct, you not only would get a treasure, but you'd re-write the history books too.

This reminds me of a news clip I saw once. 2 guys from the deep south had done their homework, and discovered where a treasure was buried in a CW soldiers grave/coffin. And the grave-site was at a federal memorial battle-field site. So they sought permission from the federal government to dig up the grave. And the fed. govt, .... of course, ... said "no".

So the guys went public with their outcry. The news media went over to their house and interviewed them (perhaps it can be found on youtube). The treasure was SSEEOO close. But ... the big bad government ... in a conspiracy hush job, is trying to keep the public from knowing about it. And if you watch the video, they are phrasing it in the past tense "found". Not "we think" , etc.... In their mind's eyes, they've already "found" (past tense) it. And the only thing standing in their way is the government.

As I watched that newsclip, I thought: "Wait a minute... where have I see this story-line before ??". OH YEAH: Clint Eastwoods "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly". Treasure in a CW grave

 

[Honest Samuel]

Look out for the federal government when seeking treasures.

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Hey there Crosse. Yes Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp and I have had some forum discussions in the past. And I have nothing but respect for him. And ... yes ... he *has* found at least that one cache that you speak of. And yes, he comes from the cultural perspectives of Mexico/Latin cultures. And has been a great asset to the forum discussions on many levels. Love his wit, etc...

As for cache in-question (granting that the story-was-as-said), the problem with attributing it to various TH'ing means : Watching for glows that emanate from the ground. Or someone used a "magic wand" to find it. Or ... a camera that claims to capture auras from gold etc.... Here's the problem with trying connect the dots between a method, and an eventual find:

If someone has a lead or a clue to a likely treasure. Then goes out to "likely looking spots" and "digs enough holes", AND THEN FINDS SOMETHING, he might attribute the success to the unconventional means. But think about it: If you are deliberately going out to hunt for goodies. In spots that have rumored reason. Around enough likely looking ruins, digging enough holes. And then ...... eventually stumble on a goodie : Is that a surprise ? So if you saw a glow (so you supposed) or waved a wand in the interim, then ... is the success really brought about by the odd-ball method ?

I mean, history is FILLED with accidental discoveries of goodies. How much more-so then, will there be goodies found , when intentionally looking ?

And as long as we're talking about Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp : He and I had long talks about the specifics of some Latin american notions and TH'ing psychologies. And he has agreed with me on the silly-ness that can grow out of them. And that scores of the "great stories" are nothing but silly-ness .

All good points of course, but don't overlook the benefit of capturing an aura coming up
out from the ground, off of an accumulation of highly desired metal. Then together
with the use of maybe some measuring, conventional detecting, 1 can get it.
...

 

[Curtis]

Here is one....I will post very good view later when I relocate the pic.

 

[HappyTrails55]

I'll try to put up another Link here, this is a Archaeological Report from around 2004 or so. The whole report is very Revealing***. The northern end of the El Paso Mountains is Black Mountain. North of it, South of it, West of it and East of it and Indeed on it, Gold mining has occurred in the past. The Key Points or Words here is Alex Apostolides on Page 2, National Treasure on bottom of Page 3, Frank Fish on bottom of Page 4, Pot Hunters on Page 5, 3rd Paragraph, Beyond 10,000 Years on Page 18, 5th Paragraph and on Page 19 of the Discussion and Conclusion is the MAN MADE PYRAMID which makes up the South/West Peak. <http://www.academia.edu/33470456/Rock_Art_In_The_El_Paso_Mountains_Kern_County_California>.....

 

[HappyTrails55]

<http://www.academia.edu/33470456/Rock_Art_In_The_El_Paso_Mountains_Kern_County_California> looks better, finger must have got stuck again

 

[HappyTrails55]

It did it again, somebody help me

 

[Clay Diggins]

I'll try to put up another Link here, this is a Archaeological Report from around 2004 or so. The whole report is very Revealing***. The northern end of the El Paso Mountains is Black Mountain. North of it, South of it, West of it and East of it and Indeed on it, Gold mining has occurred in the past. The Key Points or Words here is Alex Apostolides on Page 2, National Treasure on bottom of Page 3, Frank Fish on bottom of Page 4, Pot Hunters on Page 5, 3rd Paragraph, Beyond 10,000 Years on Page 18, 5th Paragraph and on Page 19 of the Discussion and Conclusion is the MAN MADE PYRAMID which makes up the South/West Peak. <http://www.academia.edu/33470456/Rock_Art_In_The_El_Paso_Mountains_Kern_County_California>.....

There is nothing about a death trap in this amateur report. In fact the legend is considered bogus by the researchers cited. From the report:

The legend is that this was used as a mountain for worship and that the Indians would travel for miles in order to join forces each time of the year in order to pray and to promote peace... Unfortunately, this popularized legend is not supported by ethnographic accounts or by certain of the mentioned archaeological features (for example, no one has ever documented the “water storage area in the crater of the mountain,” and a basalt metate was observed in one of the large “house rings,” suggesting that even Medicine Men or whoever else may have visited the peaks area- had to eat too). In fact, none of the published literature on the Kawaiisu or any of the other tribes reportedly involved in the above-mentioned important ceremonial gathering report any annual meeting in the El Paso Mountains. Apostolides (Field Notes for 25 Oct – 5 Nov 1967 p.3), who was almost certainly the most important expert on the range- referenced this legend and characterized the story as follows,

“Lacking more positive evidence … this view is still in the wild dream area.”

Apostolides wrote this caveat despite being a close friend of one of the miners who helped to popularize this legend, and the other El Paso miner, who communicated this story even more voraciously, was spoken of by Apostolides only in terms of great distrust and contempt (see Field Notes for 1-2 Jan 1965).

 

[Clay Diggins]

It did it again, somebody help me

You have a space in the word California. There are no spaces in internet addresses.

The right link:
ROCK ART IN THE EL PASO MOUNTAINS, KERN COUNTY, CALIFORNIA | Albert Knight - Academia.edu

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Here is one....View attachment 1562904I will post very good view later when I relocate the pic.

Uhhh, Curtis ... you consider this a "death trap" ? As in: Purposed design ? Question: Why can't that just be a naturally occurring random rock formation ? Granted yes, it's dangerous to put your head underneath there. But so too do thousands of naturally occurring dangerous rock formations exist throughout the landscape. Since when/why do they need to have been purposefully planned ?

Or am I not seeing something in your pix that I should see ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

There is nothing about a death trap in this amateur report. In fact the legend is considered bogus by the researchers cited. From the report:

Clay, your posts are a breath of fresh air.

These type sensational (and admittedly initially intriguing) claims can often be put to rest by a little old fashioned common sense. Kind of like the Scott Wolters ("America Unearthed) nonsense. After one of those shows, ("Romans visited the inland Utah deserts 2000 yrs. ago" type stuff) I was actually intrigued by the show. But alas, a quick 3 minute check of google showed that the various hieroglyphs or whatever, had long since been debunked. And the various salacious points had more plausible explanations.

But that wouldn't sell @ Hollywood.

 

[Ammoman]

Uhhh, Curtis ... you consider this a "death trap" ? As in: Purposed design ? Question: Why can't that just be a naturally occurring random rock formation ? Granted yes, it's dangerous to put your head underneath there. But so too do thousands of naturally occurring dangerous rock formations exist throughout the landscape. Since when/why do they need to have been purposefully planned ?

Or am I not seeing something in your pix that I should see ?

I am pretty sure this rock was made with purpose by a Coyote for the sole reason of hiding a treasure to catch a road runner.