Death Traps??

[Tom_in_CA]

Gentlemen, Ryano & G.A.P. metal bring up valid critical questions regarding this notion of supposed death traps that guard treasure rooms :

Do you (anyone here whose boots are on the ground) think there are still places where man has not yet trod since the Spanish/Jesuits set these "death traps" for the unwary explorer?

Well with all the "Death Traps" should be an abundance of dead animals large and small in many of the caves out west
Do you fellas find there is a lot of meat to eat around all those cave entrances ?

I think these are very fair questions. But notice what the "faithful" do to answer the objections: They find ANY possible way (and I do mean ANY) that it could still be possible, and then .... presto, the whole notion is thus true, and the burden of proof is thus put on the skeptic to DIS-prove it. Kind of like in the same way whenever you see someone pose a skeptical critique of the Oak Island nonsense (showing the near impossibility of there being any treasure there). The "faithful" will come back with some far-fetched remote possibility of how it *could* have happened. Eg.: "If you take 500 slaves and work them for 5 yrs, and blah blah" So ... as long as they find *some* possible way, then in their mind's eyes, it's thus 100% true.

Here's the faithful's explanations of Ryan's and G.A.P.'s vaild objections:

It's possible there are those yet to be found, gone unnoticed or left alone.
They are very much secreted, so you must know what to look for. But the
remote areas sought after in the past, are only a few ever trod in this era.

But the unwary explorer would not likely just happen onto one. Unless they
were happened to be digging a well under boulders, or found one in a shaft....

Pretty clever of those death trap setters, eh ? You have to "turn over boulders" in order to spring the traps. And they are very remote areas, so ... it's still *possible* that no one's ever walked there (despite nearly ever speck of ground in the USA being trodden). And as for the reason no one ever happens to *see* these death traps ? Easy: They're disguised and unrecognizable. Pretty clever of those Jesuits and Spanish, eh ?

And to explain away G.A.P.'s objection, the solution is simple:

... the heavy earth laden
boulder traps only man can possibly spring.
...

Ahh, pretty clever of those Spanish Jesuit trap makers: You gotta be a human, and/or 100+ pounds or more to spring the trap. Thus the reason why we don't see dead animals around them. Makes perfect sense, eh ?

Whatever. If you were shown one, you'd likely deny it, unless you could see it work up close...

The trouble is, it's not just ME who's "not seen one" and "thus doesn't believe". The problem is: NO ONE'S SEEN ONE. Except in movies like Raiders of the Lost Ark. Also: I have a sneeking suspicion that *any* naturally occurring random danger you could find on the landscape, you would attribute to being a purposed "death trap". Cleverly disguised to appear to be water that fills your hole, or a boulder that fell from a steep slope, or the sides of your hole caved in, or a tree branch dropped on you, etc...

The eyes see what the eyes see. If your blind to the obvious that's in plain sight then that's on you, but don't blast someone for seeing things different the way that you do sir

Myself, GAP, and Ryano are not "blasting you". Any more than you're "blasting" us. We just having a discussion on this notion of supposed death traps that guard Jesuit treasures.

And as for these traps being "obvious", it depends on how you define "obvious". Because if you showed someone a landscape feature you thought was a "death trap": And the other person figured it was just naturally occuring, or man-made coincidental dangers , you would say that person "isn't seeing the obvious". Go figure that any abandoned ruin, or defunct mine, etc... is going to have "dangers". To you , it would be "obvious" that they're purposefully set to guard a treasure. While someone else simply sees it as naturally or coincidentally existing dangers, that present themselves at all phases of life and landscape.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

... only a few ever trod in this era....

And this too is not jiving with human nature and demographics: Believe it or not, mankind 200 and 300 years ago was not any different than today. When they went to live somewhere, they chose spots THE SAME WAY WE DO. Ie.: climate, water, temperatures, availability of food, etc....

This is the bain of md'ing for example: All the oldest cool history is "under asphalt" so-to-speak, right ? So, for example, if there was a great spot to build a house "back then", then SO TOO DO THE SAME COMPONENTS exist now. So when that house was torn down, another built on the spot. If a good route existed for a road, then it only makes sense that ... a road still exists there to this day. Ie.: indian walk paths gave way to dirt roads. Which gave way to 2-lane chip gravel roads. Which gave way to 4 lane paved roads. Which gave way to the interstate freeways.

So wherever these Jesuits and spanish roamed the landscape (and hence, hid their supposed wealth and treasure rooms) isn't necessarily going to be inhospitable desert locations that "no one ever goes to". And bear in mind that, back then, you didn't have to go "far away" to be isolated and alone (compare poplulation sizes then versus now). So why this notions they went to BFE to make these treasure rooms ?

 

[HappyTrails55]

Years ago when I was a lot younger I found me a nice little cache of Spanish Gold in nuggets and dust and a map in a lead cylinder showing other locations, from under a big rock that was shaped like a cross about 75 varas more or less from this site in the North/Western Mohave Desert (a area I know so well). This site has a Sand Trap & a Boulder Trap but No Treasure there. Frank Fish was busy in this area in the 1950's but apparently missed what I later found. Chuck Kenworthy was also busy in this area after me

 

[Crosse De Sign]

And this too is not jiving with human nature and demographics: Believe it or not, mankind 200 and 300 years ago was not any different than today. When they went to live somewhere, they chose spots THE SAME WAY WE DO. Ie.: climate, water, temperatures, availability of food, etc....

Oh, but we don't travel exploring like they did, & you well know this...
They didn't always get to work in the most favourable areas, with a swimming pool
to cool off & refresh their selves in, after they drove back home on a pleasant drive from work.

This is the bain of md'ing for example: All the oldest cool history is "under asphalt" so-to-speak, right ? So, for example, if there was a great spot to build a house "back then", then SO TOO DO THE SAME COMPONENTS exist now. So when that house was torn down, another built on the spot. If a good route existed for a road, then it only makes sense that ... a road still exists there to this day. Ie.: indian walk paths gave way to dirt roads. Which gave way to 2-lane chip gravel roads. Which gave way to 4 lane paved roads. Which gave way to the interstate freeways.

That's where some guys have been dozing, & fallen through into caverns with hidden treasure,
for a very small example... Really! Every Speck Of Ground In The US Has Been Walked Totally Hilarious Stuff There Tom...
You're Pretty Much Exaggerating & Unrealistic At Best

Your right, a lot of stuff is covered over, with malls, parking lots, gas stations, houses, even sky
scrapers. Take Grass Valley, CA. for example, arguably the largest placer deposit in modern CA.
times, dating far back into antiquity, of the ancient tertiary river courses, that's not now up
somewhere up on top of a mountain above 5,000 ft. elev., like Brandy City, for example.

So wherever these Jesuits and spanish roamed the landscape (and hence, hid their supposed wealth and treasure rooms) isn't necessarily going to be inhospitable desert locations that "no one ever goes to". And bear in mind that, back then, you didn't have to go "far away" to be isolated and alone (compare poplulation sizes then versus now). So why this notions they went to BFE to make these treasure rooms ?

Because, they didn't want JOKERS like you or me to know, or BELIEVE, & thus they succeeded...
END of conversation BUD, you are better at arguing, & seem to love it much more than me,
I'm DONE! Simply because I've much better things to do, than discuss this anymore, with
a less than forthcoming, possibly knowingly dishonest LAYMAN... I rest, & now recuse.
Some of this rambling of your'n has become slightly way BEYOND sensible, & quite
a lot of purely down right crazy, & RIDICULOUS BULL!!! GOT ANY DEAD ANIMALS?
...

~:Crosse De Sign:~

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Years ago when I was a lot younger I found me a nice little cache of Spanish Gold in nuggets and dust and a map in a lead cylinder showing other locations, from under a big rock that was shaped like a cross about 75 varas more or less from this site in the North/Western Mohave Desert (a area I know so well). This site has a Sand Trap & a Boulder Trap but No Treasure there. Frank Fish was busy in this area in the 1950's but apparently missed what I later found. Chuck Kenworthy was also busy in this area after meView attachment 1560566View attachment 1560568View attachment 1560569View attachment 1560570

HappyTrails55,

Would love sometime, to possibly hear more details on your story & find, how cool!

Very Nice, Way Beyond Generous, THANKS!
...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Years ago when I was a lot younger I found me a nice little cache of Spanish Gold in nuggets and dust and a map in a lead cylinder showing other locations, from under a big rock that was shaped like a cross about 75 varas more or less from this site in the North/Western Mohave Desert (a area I know so well). This site has a Sand Trap & a Boulder Trap but No Treasure there. Frank Fish was busy in this area in the 1950's but apparently missed what I later found. Chuck Kenworthy was also busy in this area after meView attachment 1560566View attachment 1560568View attachment 1560569View attachment 1560570

I don't see anything but random blotches and shapes in your pix.

As far as the "lead cylinder" "under a boulder" with "maps in them", I think there is a more plausible & contemporary explanation for this: Those are not "Spanish" (eg.: explorer era of the southwest region of the USA). Those are simply boundaries markers that miners put out on the 4 corners of their claims. They could be quite recently dated (late 1800s? early 1900s?).

Some buddies of mine made sport of finding a bunch of those in AZ, NM, NV, etc... All you have to do is go to areas that had a lot of historic mining claims/digs. Turn over boulders, and you stumble across them. They were typically in something like tobacco tins, with little folded or rolled up paper with a name, dates, claim info, or whatever. And ... sure, if the dude was a Mexican, perhaps that's written in the Spanish language.

But no, nothing to do with treasure. Nothing to do with death traps. Nothing to do with cryptograms. Not conquistador/jesuit spanish-explorer period. Frank Fish missed nothing. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Oh, but we don't travel exploring like they did, ...

With the advent of 4wd drive, ATVs, etc.... and the million-times-more population of the USA: The land is much more traversed now, than then.

And no, I never said that "every speck of ground has been trodden". And I repeat: Human nature is human nature: They would have lived (and thus had their supposed "treasure room stores") at wherever they lived. And .... just like now, I bet that wherever you live, is where your wealth is. Ie.: if you did indeed have stacks of gold bars, I'll bet dollars to donuts you don't go 50 or 100 miles "to the middle of nowhere" to bury it (heck, and you even have a car and roads to get there !). Instead: You'd bury it with your reach of where you reside. And as we both agree: The most optimum places to live then (and the roads and travel corridors) tend to be the same now. Ie.: best climate, water, food, where there's work/resources, etc..... So the vast majority of "yesteryear's footprint" is under asphalt.

This is the bain of finding stage stops, where .... we'd much prefer all human activity stopped after 1870. But nnneeeooo, it gave way to a modern farm, blah blah blah

 

[ancient_ghost2004]

I don't see anything but random blotches and shapes in your pix.

As far as the "lead cylinder" "under a boulder" with "maps in them", I think there is a more plausible & contemporary explanation for this: Those are not "Spanish" (eg.: explorer era of the southwest region of the USA). Those are simply boundaries markers that miners put out on the 4 corners of their claims. They could be quite recently dated (late 1800s? early 1900s?).

Some buddies of mine made sport of finding a bunch of those in AZ, NM, NV, etc... All you have to do is go to areas that had a lot of historic mining claims/digs. Turn over boulders, and you stumble across them. They were typically in something like tobacco tins, with little folded or rolled up paper with a name, dates, claim info, or whatever. And ... sure, if the dude was a Mexican, perhaps that's written in the Spanish language.

But no, nothing to do with treasure. Nothing to do with death traps. Nothing to do with cryptograms. Not conquistador/jesuit spanish-explorer period. Frank Fish missed nothing. Sorry to burst your bubble.

see this is why no one can take you serious Tom. you immediately already have your mind set that there is nothing in these pics that relate to treasure in any type of way. your anti treasure comments are clearly showing here, you are so misinformed about such things and how the world really is. nothing is random, but take someone as yourself for instance, immediately shoot down something that this man has found, shame on you. Now you cant tell me that if you found a cache of Spanish treasure, that you would be posting all over tnet like hotcakes would you? so why blast someone and say so oh well they are afraid of the irs, people targeting their homes, kidnapping their family for ransom. all of those reasons are very much real to not post such a find if you happen to come across one. Myself and a few others have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you show time and time again that you will never change your views, or your own surroundings in the world for that matter. just stop posting about something you have no clue about and leave it to the ones who understand how things are that pertain to treasure. you really sound like a close minded individual, go back to swinging your detector...notice no one has called you out for the finds you have made over the years, but you sure don't have any problem passing judgement off on others now do you? talk about the pot calling the kettle black. what a joke you are

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Ancient ghosts, I luv ya bro. I love your sincere determination and belief. And I love your post. Because it is so easy to refer to point-by-point. To easily show the "self-suicide" the things you say logically do not hold merit . And since you view me as "close-minded", then ...logically ... that makes you "open-minded" . Ie.: Able to consider when/if a counter-point has corrected yours. I will take you at your word that you're open-minded (as opposed to me, who's close-minded). As such, you'll have no problem considering the following, to test your statements:

see this is why no one can take you serious Tom....

Really ? No one takes me seriously ? Do a search on posts of various md'ing for (I go by "Tom_in_CA" on all of them). Then ask yourself: "Do people take Tom seriously ?"

.... you immediately already have your mind set that there is nothing in these pics that relate to treasure in any type of way. your anti treasure comments are clearly showing here, you are so misinformed about such things and how the world really is. ....

This statement is true, if we start with the following premise: That pix someone shows of squiggles on rocks, un-canny shaped boulders, etc... Mean: "Treasure". If that starting premise is true, then yes: Everything you're saying does logically follow. Right ? But since when is that a given ?

In fact, I appear to have DIS-proved the fellow's notion of those meaning "treasure". Yet ... strangely ... you didn't address that. I showed how the practice of finding little old vials, pill-bottle type containers (tobacco tins, etc...) "under boulders" with "notes in them" is nothing more than the practice of late 1800s to early 1900's miners marking the corners of their prospecting claims. I had posted how some buddies of mine made sport of going and looking for those too. NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH TREASURES. Or death traps, or Spanish colonial history times, etc... Yet you have conveniently dodged that.

And sure, I have not shown that the photographs are NOT purposeful designed "treasure markers". Nor have you shown that they ARE purposeful designed treasure markers. So then why doesn't the finger point both ways ? Can I call you "mis-informed" ? Can I claim that "people don't take you serious" ? And so forth ? To whatever extent I've failed to show they're NOT markers (even though the burden of proof isn't on me, BTW), so too have you failed to show they ARE treasure markers. And as said: Since I debunked the other part of his excitement (which accompanied those "marker" photos), I feel I have a very good case, showing "more plausible explanations".

Please do not dodge the above observation. Since you're open-minded, I sincerely invite you to reconsider your aspursions cast on me. That ... AT A MINIMUM, they work both ways.

..... nothing is random,....

I love it. I just love it. This is said in context of photographs someone shows with odd splotches, shapes that *could* be imagined to be crosses, etc... Right ? And I call them "random" and "coincidence". To which you reply, "nothing is random". Right ? Ok, are you willing to stand behind that statement ? Good. Ok, Is this face of John F. Kennedy seen in Lava flow rock shape random coincidence ? Or planned/purposed ? :

Fragments of an Earlier World - Profile of John F. Kennedy

Do not dodge this challenge ancient ghost ! After all, you are very open-minded and logical. And also include: If you lie on your back and stare at the passing clouds. You see the shape of a bunny, or a big dipper, or whatever: Is that random ? Or purpose/planned ?

... Now you cant tell me that if you found a cache of Spanish treasure, that you would be posting all over tnet like hotcakes would you? so why blast someone and say so oh well they are afraid of the irs, people targeting their homes, kidnapping their family for ransom. all of those reasons are very much real to not post such a find if you happen to come across one....

Let's test this notion. The notion that anyone who finds something of value, will remain hush hush. Then... certainly ... this will be born out by simply noting: There is never any treasures seen "found" in the news. Because obviously, as you say, the persons finding these treasures are going to be afraid of kidnappings, claim-jumpers, taxes, and so forth. Right (I'm only quoting you here). But .... I hope you can see, this is NOT a given for all-the-time. If you do a study of history and the news, you will see NO SHORTAGE of people whose finds go public. Ala Mel Fisher, the couple in CA that stumbled across the gold coins, const. workers accidentally stumbling on to caches, md'rs who've found caches (like in Europe, England, etc...) .

If what you're saying is true, then why do we INDEED see frequent cases of caches found ? And do a quick look down the T'net banner history. You WILL INDEED some some mighty valuable stuff (even some caches). Why aren't those people all afraid of the "imminent threats" you speak of ?

I don't disagree that there are people who "keep mum". Ok, that's fine. But then later, why fault the people who say: "Where's the proof that Jesuit treasures guarded with death traps and marked with funny squiggles" ? In the same way I couldn't fault you for dis-believing in unicorns, if you failed to see any proofs (while, oddly, on the other hand, there would be no shortage of proof of horses, cows, chickens, etc...)

..... but you show time and time again that you will never change your views,....

Ok, so let's say that my failure to change my view, makes me, by definition stubborn, blind, and close-minded. Then why is it, that when YOU fail to "change your views", the same things/claims can not be said of you ? Why is this finger only pointing one way ??

Please do not dodge these point-by-point observations. Seeing as how you are operating on logic (and not emotion), and that you are open-minded.

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Ancient ghosts, I luv ya bro. I love your sincere determination and belief. And I love your post. Because it is so easy to refer to point-by-point. To easily show the "self-suicide" the things you say logically do not hold merit . And since you view me as "close-minded", then ...logically ... that makes you "open-minded" . Ie.: Able to consider when/if a counter-point has corrected yours. I will take you at your word that you're open-minded (as opposed to me, who's close-minded). As such, you'll have no problem considering the following, to test your statements:

Seeming to be pretty critical is one thing, mocking accusations are another altogether.

Really ? No one takes me seriously ? Do a search on posts of various md'ing for (I go by "Tom_in_CA" on all of them). Then ask yourself: "Do people take Tom seriously ?"

Sounds like there are issues, & you're taking them out on folks just trying to be
reasonably sharing info, of things that have been found.[/QUOTE]




This statement is true, if we start with the following premise: That pix someone shows of squiggles on rocks, un-canny shaped boulders, etc... Mean: "Treasure". If that starting premise is true, then yes: Everything you're saying does logically follow. Right ? But since when is that a given ?

In fact, I appear to have DIS-proved the fellow's notion of those meaning "treasure". Yet ... strangely ... you didn't address that. I showed how the practice of finding little old vials, pill-bottle type containers (tobacco tins, etc...) "under boulders" with "notes in them" is nothing more than the practice of late 1800s to early 1900's miners marking the corners of their prospecting claims. I had posted how some buddies of mine made sport of going and looking for those too. NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH TREASURES. Or death traps, or Spanish colonial history times, etc... Yet you have conveniently dodged that.

And sure, I have not shown that the photographs are NOT purposeful designed "treasure markers". Nor have you shown that they ARE purposeful designed treasure markers. So then why doesn't the finger point both ways ? Can I call you "mis-informed" ? Can I claim that "people don't take you serious" ? And so forth ? To whatever extent I've failed to show they're NOT markers (even though the burden of proof isn't on me, BTW), so too have you failed to show they ARE treasure markers. And as said: Since I debunked the other part of his excitement (which accompanied those "marker" photos), I feel I have a very good case, showing "more plausible explanations".

Please do not dodge the above observation. Since you're open-minded, I sincerely invite you to reconsider your aspursions cast on me. That ... AT A MINIMUM, they work both ways.





I love it. I just love it. This is said in context of photographs someone shows with odd splotches, shapes that *could* be imagined to be crosses, etc... Right ? And I call them "random" and "coincidence". To which you reply, "nothing is random". Right ? Ok, are you willing to stand behind that statement ? Good. Ok, Is this face of John F. Kennedy seen in Lava flow rock shape random coincidence ? Or planned/purposed ? :

Fragments of an Earlier World - Profile of John F. Kennedy

Do not dodge this challenge ancient ghost ! After all, you are very open-minded and logical. And also include: If you lie on your back and stare at the passing clouds. You see the shape of a bunny, or a big dipper, or whatever: Is that random ? Or purpose/planned ?



Let's test this notion. The notion that anyone who finds something of value, will remain hush hush. Then... certainly ... this will be born out by simply noting: There is never any treasures seen "found" in the news. Because obviously, as you say, the persons finding these treasures are going to be afraid of kidnappings, claim-jumpers, taxes, and so forth. Right (I'm only quoting you here). But .... I hope you can see, this is NOT a given for all-the-time. If you do a study of history and the news, you will see NO SHORTAGE of people whose finds go public. Ala Mel Fisher, the couple in CA that stumbled across the gold coins, const. workers accidentally stumbling on to caches, md'rs who've found caches (like in Europe, England, etc...) .

If what you're saying is true, then why do we INDEED see frequent cases of caches found ? And do a quick look down the T'net banner history. You WILL INDEED some some mighty valuable stuff (even some caches). Why aren't those people all afraid of the "imminent threats" you speak of ?

I don't disagree that there are people who "keep mum". Ok, that's fine. But then later, why fault the people who say: "Where's the proof that Jesuit treasures guarded with death traps and marked with funny squiggles" ? In the same way I couldn't fault you for dis-believing in unicorns, if you failed to see any proofs (while, oddly, on the other hand, there would be no shortage of proof of horses, cows, chickens, etc...)



Ok, so let's say that my failure to change my view, makes me, by definition stubborn, blind, and close-minded. Then why is it, that when YOU fail to "change your views", the same things/claims can not be said of you ? Why is this finger only pointing one way ??

Please do not dodge these point-by-point observations. Seeing as how you are operating on logic (and not emotion), and that you are open-minded.[/QUOTE]

 

[G.A.P.metal]

I just find it very hard to believe... in fact here in the east small hidden caves are hard to come by.
I live just 2 miles from the Seneca strong hold of Catherine`s Town... Wiped out 1779, been looking for Seneca Indian caves for years.
Have heard of many ...but none pan out...but Death Traps well hard to believe.
The Jesuits were here with the Seneca all they left were copper rings and trinkets...the Spanish were here too.
We have no Gold or Silver or anything to enslave the locals to dig out... or build .
So i`m comparing Apples to well you know .
Gary

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Seeming to be pretty critical is one thing, mocking accusations are another altogether....

C.D.S. : If I came across "mocking", I apologize and stand corrected. Yes I see some phrasing that could be toned down. However: Please refer to ancient-ghost's choice of words to describe me and my views. I don't think you'll find them any less passionate, or at guilt of be "mocking". But ... in any event, yes: I could have toned it down.

.... Sounds like there are issues, & you're taking them out on folks just trying to be
reasonably sharing info, of things that have been found.

No, just discussing pro's & cons of TH'ing methods. And as for "things that have been found" : ? The world will beat a path the doorstep of any method/theories, when the "better mousetrap" is shown to work. But we've already established why no-such-proofs will be forth-coming from the death-trap/Jesuit-treasure/cryptogram theorists. They're all mum, for the reasons discussed above.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....The Jesuits were here with the Seneca all they left were copper rings and trinkets...the Spanish were here too....

They were here in CA too. In fact, in 1.5 hrs, I'll be leading a tour at Carmel Mission. Fr. Serra's home base . And the home base for the eventual 21 missions here that were founded. I hang with some of the hard-core brazen hunters around. One of them was getting permission back in the 1970s & '80s, before the era of archaeological awareness was setting in . Back when you could actually get a "yes" from priest , or museum director on duty. Either that or, quite frankly, he snuck into many of them. He has several hundreds reales and phoenix buttons. Not a single gold escudo (although I do know of at least 3 escudos found in CA).

And I've studied the archaeological displays of most of the 21 missions. We're talking archie digs that have gone on since the 1920s. And you'll see scores of copper trinkets, a sprinkling of silver reales (perhaps 2 or 3 dozen silver reales at Carmel mission). Yet ... no gold. The crucifixes, medallions, rings, etc.... : All copper, and a little bit of silver now and then. Where's the gold ? The same can be said of the missions in AZ, NM, TX, and baja CA. (which are much older than alta CA's missions). Where's the gold ?

And if you and I are wrong, and .... some day while hunting a mission outpost or site dating to the 1500s/1600s, and if you or I do in fact dig up bars of gold with markings that make them indisputably Jesuit/spanish colonial : I think we'd be going public . I'd most certainly "toot my horn". Like a golfer hitting a hole in one: What's the first thing he'll do when he gets back to the club-house ? He'll gloat to his golfing buddies.

And no, I won't be afraid of thieves. I've got a good home alarm security system (nor would they be any place in my house that you'd find them anyhow). And I would not be afraid of claim-jumpers. Because my post and magazine article wouldn't be saying where I found them. And I wouldn't be afraid of kid-nappers, because I have no kids . And I wouldn't be afraid of the IRS.

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Ancient ghosts, I luv ya bro. I love your sincere determination and belief. And I love your post. Because it is so easy to refer to point-by-point. To easily show the "self-suicide" the things you say logically do not hold merit . And since you view me as "close-minded", then ...logically ... that makes you "open-minded" . Ie.: Able to consider when/if a counter-point has corrected yours. I will take you at your word that you're open-minded (as opposed to me, who's close-minded). As such, you'll have no problem considering the following, to test your statements:

Seeming to be pretty critical is one thing, the use of mocking accusations,
are another thing altogether. Since you are so intelligent, have done
a lot of interesting research, & like to share your perspectives,
how about minimizing the petty, childish antagonism?

Really ? No one takes me seriously ? Do a search on posts of various md'ing for (I go by "Tom_in_CA" on all of them). Then ask yourself: "Do people take Tom seriously ?"

Sounds like there's reasons, & you're taking them out on folks, just trying to be
reasonably sharing info, of things that have been found, but that you haven't seen.

This statement is true, if we start with the following premise: That pix someone shows of squiggles on rocks, un-canny shaped boulders, etc... Mean: "Treasure". If that starting premise is true, then yes: Everything you're saying does logically follow. Right ? But since when is that a given ?

Why in your view, does everything other folks have seen, always have to be just squiggles
on rocks, or un-canny shaped boulders? Because you've never seen anything like them?
You always refer to the things clouds supposedly make. Why the arrogance?

In fact, I appear to have DIS-proved the fellow's notion of those meaning "treasure". Yet ... strangely ... you didn't address that. I showed how the practice of finding little old vials, pill-bottle type containers (tobacco tins, etc...) "under boulders" with "notes in them" is nothing more than the practice of late 1800s to early 1900's miners marking the corners of their prospecting claims. I had posted how some buddies of mine made sport of going and looking for those too. NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH TREASURES. Or death traps, or Spanish colonial history times, etc... Yet you have conveniently dodged that.

You've stated some interesting facts, info & experiences, but haven't really dis-proved anything.
Just proved you truly are firmly closed minded in some ways, because the evidence you
seem to know, is not all common knowledge, & not the same nature, that others
have experienced.

Just because all of the details cannot necessarily be shared with you, or there's not
a book or Biblical reference to it, then it can't be true at all. Everyone's pretty far
behind you & uninformed, & you alone with your particular knowledge are smart.

And sure, I have not shown that the photographs are NOT purposeful designed "treasure markers". Nor have you shown that they ARE purposeful designed treasure markers. So then why doesn't the finger point both ways ? Can I call you "mis-informed" ? Can I claim that "people don't take you serious" ? And so forth ? To whatever extent I've failed to show they're NOT markers (even though the burden of proof isn't on me, BTW), so too have you failed to show they ARE treasure markers. And as said: Since I debunked the other part of his excitement (which accompanied those "marker" photos), I feel I have a very good case, showing "more plausible explanations".

Please do not dodge the above observation. Since you're open-minded, I sincerely invite you to reconsider your aspursions cast on me. That ... AT A MINIMUM, they work both ways.

You haven't debunked anything, just given your opinion, thoughts, & experience,
which does not pertain to the specific subject. A lot of words & presumption.

Since the Spanish had many inventions back in that era, doesn't it seem likely,
they would have the simple technology to make lead pipes? He said there
were maps inside to other locations, not a modern era mine claim inside
an old tobacco can. Why is it seeming like you alone are always right,
& everyone else is never hardly right about anything?

I love it. I just love it. This is said in context of photographs someone shows with odd splotches, shapes that *could* be imagined to be crosses, etc... Right ? And I call them "random" and "coincidence". To which you reply, "nothing is random". Right ? Ok, are you willing to stand behind that statement ? Good. Ok, Is this face of John F. Kennedy seen in Lava flow rock shape random coincidence ? Or planned/purposed ? :

Fragments of an Earlier World - Profile of John F. Kennedy

Do not dodge this challenge ancient ghost ! After all, you are very open-minded and logical. And also include: If you lie on your back and stare at the passing clouds. You see the shape of a bunny, or a big dipper, or whatever: Is that random ? Or purpose/planned ?

Sure, there's a lot of amazing things that are naturally occurring. Lots of very
amazing things have been found, like a rock broken open, with an image
of the Walt Disney created Mickey Mouse, for one small example.

Let's test this notion. The notion that anyone who finds something of value, will remain hush hush. Then... certainly ... this will be born out by simply noting: There is never any treasures seen "found" in the news. Because obviously, as you say, the persons finding these treasures are going to be afraid of kidnappings, claim-jumpers, taxes, and so forth. Right (I'm only quoting you here). But .... I hope you can see, this is NOT a given for all-the-time. If you do a study of history and the news, you will see NO SHORTAGE of people whose finds go public. Ala Mel Fisher, the couple in CA that stumbled across the gold coins, const. workers accidentally stumbling on to caches, md'rs who've found caches (like in Europe, England, etc...) .

If what you're saying is true, then why do we INDEED see frequent cases of caches found ? And do a quick look down the T'net banner history. You WILL INDEED some some mighty valuable stuff (even some caches). Why aren't those people all afraid of the "imminent threats" you speak of ?

I don't disagree that there are people who "keep mum". Ok, that's fine. But then later, why fault the people who say: "Where's the proof that Jesuit treasures guarded with death traps and marked with funny squiggles" ? In the same way I couldn't fault you for dis-believing in unicorns, if you failed to see any proofs (while, oddly, on the other hand, there would be no shortage of proof of horses, cows, chickens, etc...)


Ok, so let's say that my failure to change my view, makes me, by definition stubborn, blind, and close-minded. Then why is it, that when YOU fail to "change your views", the same things/claims can not be said of you ? Why is this finger only pointing one way ??

Please do not dodge these point-by-point observations. Seeing as how you are operating on logic (and not emotion), and that you are open-minded.

You apparently cannot accept the fact that it would not be wise, to share info about
some kinds of treasures. Since you are comfortable with your silver finds, & whatever
else, not being attractive enough to draw any kind of criminal attention to you, so
everyone else should show everything they know or have found, or it's not real.

The title of this thread, is simply: Death Traps?? Noone said it takes a particular
weight to move enough material beneath a centuries old set gravity rock trap,
to allow it to move down. No turning over boulders, but they WILL roll over
you, if in the downward area of their travel, if they are set free to move, &
they WILL move, if the material below them, holding them there is moved.
That is the main subject here. Everything else is added. Why would there
ever be any kind of sand or gravel, big rocks & boulders observed to have
been apparently set up, unless someone had some thing they wanted to
hide, that couldn't be taken with them at the time, & marked in a set code,
for a future return, to prevent almost anyone else back in the day observing?

Why do you seem to be so angry, so argumentative? Sure, it appears you've
done lots of good research, put much of it together in reasonable perspective.
Making lots of interesting & valid points. But that doesn't mean everyone who
is saying there are boulders particularly set up to move if disturbed, are wrong.
You just aren't that kind of a specialized hunter, making those sure observations.

You've used this thread's special controversial subject, conversation & attention,
to brag a lot on what all you know, who you know, & what you've been in a very
privileged position to be able to get to do, belittling other's experiences & ideas.
...

 

[Crosse De Sign]

They were here in CA too. In fact, in 1.5 hrs, I'll be leading a tour at Carmel Mission. Fr. Serra's home base . And the home base for the eventual 21 missions here that were founded. I hang with some of the hard-core brazen hunters around. One of them was getting permission back in the 1970s & '80s, before the era of archaeological awareness was setting in . Back when you could actually get a "yes" from priest , or museum director on duty. Either that or, quite frankly, he snuck into many of them. He has several hundreds reales and phoenix buttons. Not a single gold escudo (although I do know of at least 3 escudos found in CA).

And I've studied the archaeological displays of most of the 21 missions. We're talking archie digs that have gone on since the 1920s. And you'll see scores of copper trinkets, a sprinkling of silver reales (perhaps 2 or 3 dozen silver reales at Carmel mission). Yet ... no gold. The crucifixes, medallions, rings, etc.... : All copper, and a little bit of silver now and then. Where's the gold ? The same can be said of the missions in AZ, NM, TX, and baja CA. (which are much older than alta CA's missions). Where's the gold ?

So they never picked up any gold, they were so humble, that they just
stuck with the lesser valued copper & a little modest bit of silver?

And if you and I are wrong, and .... some day while hunting a mission outpost or site dating to the 1500s/1600s, and if you or I do in fact dig up bars of gold with markings that make them indisputably Jesuit/spanish colonial : I think we'd be going public . I'd most certainly "toot my horn". Like a golfer hitting a hole in one: What's the first thing he'll do when he gets back to the club-house ? He'll gloat to his golfing buddies.

The lust of the eye, the pride of life, & the cares of this world...

And no, I won't be afraid of thieves. I've got a good home alarm security system (nor would they be any place in my house that you'd find them anyhow). And I would not be afraid of claim-jumpers. Because my post and magazine article wouldn't be saying where I found them. And I wouldn't be afraid of kid-nappers, because I have no kids . And I wouldn't be afraid of the IRS.

Tooting your horn, is apparently what you really like to do,
seeming to be totally safe, & quite wise to you, enjoy...

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Gentlemen, Ryano & G.A.P. metal bring up valid critical questions regarding this notion of supposed death traps that guard treasure rooms :



I think these are very fair questions. But notice what the "faithful" do to answer the objections: They find ANY possible way (and I do mean ANY) that it could still be possible, and then .... presto, the whole notion is thus true, and the burden of proof is thus put on the skeptic to DIS-prove it. Kind of like in the same way whenever you see someone pose a skeptical critique of the Oak Island nonsense (showing the near impossibility of there being any treasure there). The "faithful" will come back with some far-fetched remote possibility of how it *could* have happened. Eg.: "If you take 500 slaves and work them for 5 yrs, and blah blah" So ... as long as they find *some* possible way, then in their mind's eyes, it's thus 100% true.

Here's the faithful's explanations of Ryan's and G.A.P.'s vaild objections:

The faithful, just more clever mockery?

Pretty clever of those death trap setters, eh ? You have to "turn over boulders" in order to spring the traps. And they are very remote areas, so ... it's still *possible* that no one's ever walked there (despite nearly ever speck of ground in the USA being trodden). And as for the reason no one ever happens to *see* these death traps ? Easy: They're disguised and unrecognizable. Pretty clever of those Jesuits and Spanish, eh ?

Nearly every speck? The boulders set up to hurt or kill unwary searchers, are:
Recognized by understanding the nature of their construction & design upon sight,
with the knowledge, above ground. Hidden, & very much disguised below ground.

And to explain away G.A.P.'s objection, the solution is simple:



Ahh, pretty clever of those Spanish Jesuit trap makers: You gotta be a human, and/or 100+ pounds or more to spring the trap. Thus the reason why we don't see dead animals around them. Makes perfect sense, eh ?

They move on their own, if enough material around or below them is moved.
You can't necessarily just hand move them if they're huge, because of their
size, & extreme weight.

The trouble is, it's not just ME who's "not seen one" and "thus doesn't believe". The problem is: NO ONE'S SEEN ONE. Except in movies like Raiders of the Lost Ark. Also: I have a sneeking suspicion that *any* naturally occurring random danger you could find on the landscape, you would attribute to being a purposed "death trap". Cleverly disguised to appear to be water that fills your hole, or a boulder that fell from a steep slope, or the sides of your hole caved in, or a tree branch dropped on you, etc...

There are people who've seen some. There you go assuming & declaring it to be a fact again.

Myself, GAP, and Ryano are not "blasting you". Any more than you're "blasting" us. We just having a discussion on this notion of supposed death traps that guard Jesuit treasures.

And as for these traps being "obvious", it depends on how you define "obvious". Because if you showed someone a landscape feature you thought was a "death trap": And the other person figured it was just naturally occuring, or man-made coincidental dangers , you would say that person "isn't seeing the obvious". Go figure that any abandoned ruin, or defunct mine, etc... is going to have "dangers". To you , it would be "obvious" that they're purposefully set to guard a treasure. While someone else simply sees it as naturally or coincidentally existing dangers, that present themselves at all phases of life and landscape.

Wrong, not applicable to obvious dangers caused by open mines.

With the advent of 4wd drive, ATVs, etc.... and the million-times-more population of the USA: The land is much more traversed now, than then.

In some areas there may be more people traveling through at times now, but
not necessarily combing every canyon & creek, etc., thoroughly everywhere.
Many areas are probably barely accessed by horse or mule, & people don't
often ride them across country, running across areas that were traveled
a lot more often back in the day before motorized vehicles. Many of
the highways & freeways are now re-routed, from the original trails.

And no, I never said that "every speck of ground has been trodden". And I repeat: Human nature is human nature: They would have lived (and thus had their supposed "treasure room stores") at wherever they lived. And .... just like now, I bet that wherever you live, is where your wealth is. Ie.: if you did indeed have stacks of gold bars, I'll bet dollars to donuts you don't go 50 or 100 miles "to the middle of nowhere" to bury it (heck, and you even have a car and roads to get there !). Instead: You'd bury it with your reach of where you reside. And as we both agree: The most optimum places to live then (and the roads and travel corridors) tend to be the same now. Ie.: best climate, water, food, where there's work/resources, etc..... So the vast majority of "yesteryear's footprint" is under asphalt.

Yes, you said "nearly every speck", which is not really very realistic at all.
They were purposed to be working hard on gathering up stuff, hauling it off.
So they only left behind what they couldn't carry, of the very heavy minerals.

This is the bain of finding stage stops, where .... we'd much prefer all human activity stopped after 1870. But nnneeeooo, it gave way to a modern farm, blah blah blah

But still back on many farm lands, are out of the way rock outcroppings,
some here & there across the country, with strange shapes carved outta'
them. Some even have warnings, if one understands, of potential danger.

There's nothing left to discuss with you about this Tom, since your mind
seems to be made up, no matter what anyone else has to say about it.
...

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Example of a death trap, (with verious shaped
rocks around & below it), weighing a few tons.
...

 

[Clay Diggins]

The funny thing about this and all the other "Spanish treasure" threads is the way the actual recorded facts from the time are ignored.

The Spanish had a virtual fetish about keeping records of all their interests in the new world, particularly mines and treasures. There are several good sources for this information including:
The National Library of Spain.

For records specific to the American Southwest the University of New Mexico has an extensive and well known collection, including the El Archivo de Hidalgo del Parral 1631-1821.

For Florida and the east coast explorations the University of Florida has a great archive.

For Texas the University of Austin hosts an extensive collection from the colonial period.

There are many more. Once you start researching Spanish colonial records you will come to understand that nothing was left out of these volumes of records. Daily meals prepared and eaten, livestock feed, the members of various daily duty parties etc. all in these records. Something like a mine or ore discovery was always recorded. Spain executed anyone who tried to conceal ore discoveries or mines. Once you dive into these records you will wonder if Spain spent more time recording every thing that happened than actually doing those things.

With a little bit of research you will see how silly the concept of unknown Spanish mines can be. With much deeper research you might just find well known Spanish mines that have become large modern productive mines. The Spanish weren't the best miners or geologists ever - modern miners using modern tools are.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... sharing info, of things that have been found, but that you haven't seen.

I'm totally game to admit that these things have been found. Just waiting to see the evidence. And the answer to the more plausible explanations (to said photos and stories) that I am offering you guys to the various evidences and photos you give.

.... You've stated some interesting facts, info & experiences, but haven't really dis-proved anything.
Just proved you truly are firmly closed minded in some ways, because the evidence you
seem to know, is not all common knowledge, & not the same nature, that others
have experienced.

Ok. Sure. I'll admit I haven't "dis-proved" anything. And I think you will admit that you haven't "proved" anything either. Right ?

And I have no doubt that people have "experienced" what you're saying. Depending on how you define "experience". Because to some people, seeing a certain rock, or finding a vial with a note in it, is .... to them .... proof positive "experience". Don't take this wrong, but there are people who claim to have experienced seeing Elvis alive, or being abducted by aliens, etc.... Please, don't take that as mockery. I'm only saying that "experience" is not the measure of reality. Only evidence is the proof of reality. People can "experience" all sorts of things which, under scrutiny, have more plausible explanations.

.... You haven't debunked anything, just given your opinion, thoughts, & experience,
which does not pertain to the specific subject. A lot of words & presumption..

Sure. Nor have you proven anything. Sure, so too do you have words and presumption, opinion, thoughts, experiences. Why isn't this finger pointing both ways ?

.... Since the Spanish had many inventions back in that era, doesn't it seem likely,
they would have the simple technology to make lead pipes? He said there
were maps inside to other locations, not a modern era mine claim inside
an old tobacco can. ..

He also said gold nuggets inside, eh? I had never heard of the mining markers having "nuggets" inside, so I decided to leave that out of the discussion . But let's cut to the chase: If, in fact, this simply, as I say, nothing but a later era (ie.: modern western) mining claim marker, then why wouldn't it be reasonable to assume there's "maps" in there ? AFTER ALL, that's the purpose, when you've gone to mark-out-the-corners of your claim is to (doh....) MAP it after all. Right ? Let him take the vial and the text on the rolled up little pieces of paper to a mining history authority. And I'll bet you dollars to donuts it's exactly what I'm saying it is.

....Why is it seeming like you alone are always right,
& everyone else is never hardly right about anything? ...

This is an odd thing to say. Seeing as how you too are going to great lengths to uphold a contrasting/differing view as well. Then, logically, couldn't I say the same thing of your notions of being right? Perhaps you are right ! Perhaps I am right ! But the finger of "thinking one is right" points both ways. Does it not ? The issue then is: Who's got the evidence ? And who's got the more plausible explanations ? Name-calling (eg. "close-minded", etc...) is not "evidence"

....You apparently cannot accept the fact that it would not be wise, to share info about
some kinds of treasures....

If you go back to my post, you'll see that I acknowledge some people "stay mum". Sure. But ... then if no one can produce a single type treasure being found/produced by a particular type unconventional TH'ing method/origin (Jesuit/spanish + death trap + cryptogram), doesn't it ... uh ... raise a little bit of eyebrows ?

We can find an example of every single other type treasure in the news, or past banners, etc... But not this type. Is it all just coincidence ?

....So they never picked up any gold, they were so humble, that they just
stuck with the lesser valued copper & a little modest bit of silver?....

I have addressed this already. I'll address it again: You and I both know (because I'm assuming your an md'ing enthusiast, that mankind will loose and/or hide (and hence be found later) a representative example of whatever he owns or carries. Right ? So for example: If you're in France, you'll expect French coins. Right ? If your country carries/uses/owns silver coins, then you'll expect silver coins. Right ? Then why, oh why, oh why .... if the Spanish here (in CA for example) had all this gold some people allege, then why is there NEVER a representative sample in the archaeological or md'ing record ?

....The lust of the eye, the pride of life, & the cares of this world... ...

That's fine if you personally are not the type that shows off his trophies to his buddies. If you go fishing and land the lake's record trout, you'll just keep that to yourself? If you finally perform a triple back flip snow-ski'ing, you'll hope none of your friends caught it on video ? If you find a gold bar, you won't tell your detecting buddies ? Because to do any of these things would be to violate the Biblical commands against pride ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....Why do you seem to be so angry, so argumentative? ...

First off, I'm not "angry". And as for "argumentative" : No more so than you . And the better word for me is "fascinated". Here's the reason (to answer your question) :

I teamed up with an immigrant from Mexico, to spend 3 weeks in Mexico looking for caches. The guy had awesome stories. That sounded sseeooo good. Each one was bullet proof true. Hence metal detectors would make child's play on finding some more, eh ?

I will not bore you with the full trip details. But ... suffice it to say, I started bumping into various cultural superstitions down there. And began to suspect that all the stories we'd gone down to chase, were nothing but ghost-stories and telephone game gone awry. Eg.: "flames" or "glows" that come from the mountains when there's treasure. Or dowsing and/or LRL that we need to buy before we leave the USA on our trip, from our common pot of travel $. (Please don't engage me in a debate on dowsing/LRL). Or the "proof" was someone had a vision or dream and a ghost told them, blah blah blah. I could go on and on, but I will spare you the details.

After I wised up to the silly-ness of what-they-consider proof of treasure, my guide challenged me. Ie..: he dug in his heels and persisted to bolster the notions. And to be quite honest with you, I only had feeble answers at that time. I'd never had to consider it before. So I set about studying and comparing it all. Not only beliefs of that type that come Latin countries, but also American, Filipino, etc.... I became fascinated with "how do people believe these things?" and "how do they respond when shown more plausible explanations ?

I hope that sheds a little light on my interest. If you want to hear the rest of my Mexican adventure , let me know