CLUES TO THE LOST DUTCMAN MINE

[Oroblanco]

First of all, Reed wrote in the letter how his father have seen few Mexicans working " a mine " and not " the mine ". If Reed was referring the LDM he would wrote " the mine " because he was writing and giving info about the the iclined LDM shaft. So , his father has seen the Mexicans working a different mine than the LDM.
In any case, nobody could see someone working the LDM from any trail or passing by IMHO.
There is a gold mine which someone could see somebody working it by passing on the trail which is close and I believe Reed's father was talking about this mine. When the older Mexican told Reed's father about rich outcrops in a rough canyon few miles east, was talking about the LDM, and Reed's father just went there and found it. And this occured before John Reed even was born. Reed never mentioned how his father found the LDM but he has remembered only the Mexican story told by his father around a campfire at the LDM site. Maybe Reed's father went in Rogers Canyon because he has heard about mines which have been operated there and was looking for a strike on his own.
Is impossible to find the LDM by search or luck but only if someone show you the place or give you details about how to find it.

If you believe that he would have written "THE mine" if it were the LDM, then he would have written GOLD ORE instead of NUGGETS if he knew it was a hard rock mine and NOT a placer. REED was clearly frigging GUESSING, using information that was publicly available circa 1932. Prove otherwise. Remember also that REED had talked to other LDM hunters too.

Confido periculo tuo. <Similar to 'caveat emptor' for those without a Latin dictionary handy>

 

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[markmar]

If you believe that he would have written "THE mine" if it were the LDM, then he would have written GOLD ORE instead of NUGGETS if he knew it was a hard rock mine and NOT a placer. REED was clearly frigging GUESSING, using information that was publicly available circa 1932. Prove otherwise. Remember also that REED had talked to other LDM hunters too.

Confido periculo tuo. <Similar to 'caveat emptor' for those without a Latin dictionary handy>

Oro

You have stuck in the " nuggets " thingie and you are ready to lost the essence of all Reed story IMO.
The real deal is the terrain and route which Reed described, not only to Clay but also to Northcut Ely. IMHO there are some bits of truth in Reed's descriptions about the region close to the mine and these could not be listened from other LDM hunters around 1932, because the clues Reed told/wrote were not told by others before Reed and are not written by others in any account before Reed revealed them.. If so , he should listen to Herman Petrash who was the only that knew more than anybody else on LDM account, but I believe this didn't occured.

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro

You have stuck in the " nuggets " thingie and you are ready to lost the essence of all Reed story IMO.
The real deal is the terrain and route which Reed described, not only to Clay but also to Northcut Ely. IMHO there are some bits of truth in Reed's descriptions about the region close to the mine and these could not be listened from other LDM hunters around 1932, because the clues Reed told/wrote were not told by others before Reed and are not written by others in any account before Reed revealed them.. If so , he should listen to Herman Petrash who was the only that knew more than anybody else on LDM account, but I believe this didn't occured.

Believe what you will. Don't expect me to buy REED's tales, sorry, too much guesswork and shoe-fitting to make it work. You are certainly welcome to believe his letters and trust every word. I believe I will have another coffee!

 

[gollum]

Three days ago. You are certainly welcome to think what ever you prefer.

Gollum also wrote


Yeah how on Earth could he have ever possibly have learned of that "OTHER" mine, when the numerous silver mines (including the finding of pockets of gold in several) only was announced to the public in the late 1870s and early 1880s, only fifty years before REED wrote those letters! Amazing prescient knowledge! Hahaha! Not! Still waiting on the rich gold mine to be discovered in ROUGH canyon though.

Gollum also wrote


Yes it would indeed be amazing if the mines in Rogers canyon were totally unknown prior to 1932! Amazing! Hahaha!


Let me know when you find the LDM using REED's info, just post a few photos of the "NUGGETS" you recover from it along with the mine on the slope and that will do! Hahaha!

They would be mostly unknown in Missouri, but Reed did say they moved around a few times. It is possible he may have read about silver being found, but I haven't seen anything specific to Rogers or Rough Canyons. While I haven't gone through every copy of "The Arizona Miners Weekly", I did get to 1875 without luck, although there was a mention of Capt. Rogers taking a mining party from Florence into the Pinals to look for ledges. Reed never told Ruth it was a placer (unless he did it face to face). None of the letters to Ruth say that. He did use the word "nugget" to described what his dad took, but somehow I doubt an eleven year old would know what a "specimen" was. It would just be a chunk of rock with gold (or a nugget). I know what he said later, but none of his letters say that.

Funny though how his description of the location of the mine to Ely was almost exactly in the area where the Salazar Survey placed the mine?

You believe what you will, but I won't disregard his story.

Let me know when you find the LDM using REED's info, just post a few photos of the "NUGGETS" you recover from it along with the mine on the slope and that will do! Hahaha!

I would do that any way. LOL I don't see you as having been particularly successful either! You, me, or any other person since 1891! Like I have always said, when that hippie out for a nature walk falls into the mine, we will all know for sure which clues were spot on and which ones were BS.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

They would be mostly unknown in Missouri, but Reed did say they moved around a few times. It is possible he may have read about silver being found, but I haven't seen anything specific to Rogers or Rough Canyons. While I haven't gone through every copy of "The Arizona Miners Weekly", I did get to 1875 without luck, although there was a mention of Capt. Rogers taking a mining party from Florence into the Pinals to look for ledges. Reed never told Ruth it was a placer (unless he did it face to face). None of the letters to Ruth say that. He did use the word "nugget" to described what his dad took, but somehow I doubt an eleven year old would know what a "specimen" was. It would just be a chunk of rock with gold (or a nugget). I know what he said later, but none of his letters say that.

The claims were recorded, it would only require a visit to the county courthouse, and it didn't even need for REED to be there he could have obtained the info from others.

Gollum also wrote

Funny though how his description of the location of the mine to Ely was almost exactly in the area where the Salazar Survey placed the mine?

THE mine? The Salazar Survey documents were brought to AZ in 1924. REED's letters date to after that.

Gollum also wrote

You believe what you will, but I won't disregard his story.

I don't ask you to. Don't ask me to believe REED.

Gollum also wrote

I would do that any way. LOL I don't see you as having been particularly successful either! You, me, or any other person since 1891! Like I have always said, when that hippie out for a nature walk falls into the mine, we will all know for sure which clues were spot on and which ones were BS.

Mike

You discount the story Tom Kollenborn reported of a supposed son of Walt Gassler, having had in his possession a piece of ore that looked "identical" to the known LDM specimens? Also in the late 1890s and up to the 1930s, there were multiple claims of having discovered the LDM in which the discoverer(s) had actually found good gold mines, which probably were not the LDM yet were good mines in their own right.

I would also point out that you don't know what I may or may not have been successful in finding, any more than I would know what you have or have not been successful in finding. What if I already found the LDM and simply kept it quiet?

Maybe I have run into too many BS artists, but ask yourself this - if John REED really knew where the LDM mine was all his life, why do you suppose that he never bothered to take the time to go out and claim it for himself? Waltz was dead and buried in 1891, his own supposedly dangerous father was long gone, it makes that excuse about his fear of the fast-drawing mean outlaw father and equally fast-drawing murderous Waltz a bit questionable doesn't it? Remember REED was writing those letters in the early 1930s, he had plenty of time to go there himself. Of course if he was a BS artist, he would not have made that trip because he really did not know anything about where it really was located.

 

[markmar]

Another example of what happened to John Reed who didn't remember the exact region but only the mine site is Lydian Perrine, mother of Walter Perrine, who was remembering details about the gold cave site in the Superstitions but not about the the region or route where the cave was/is located.
Like John Reed, Lydian was about ten years old when at the cave site was lowered in the shaft and saw what the cave contained. She told to Walter with approximation where she believed the cave could be, but was proven wrong because her memory didn't help in that case.

Now about the Salazar survey which Mike mentioned, was not made for the LDM but for the Gonzalez-McDowell soldier-John Carrol-Two soldiers-Joe Deering-Jenkins( who was never at the site, nor his wife )-Haywood-Polka ( one of few he was aware ) mine.
To find this mine using the Salazar info described in the Peralta/Gonzalez survey, someone has to know three details: where is the " Casa Caverna " ( the two rooms house from Waltz clue ), the first summit from the Salt River close to the Peralta's camp there and the measurement in degrees to a specific direction from Weavers Needle. And why all these? Because the virtual line which connects the Casa Caverna with the top of the first summit, intersects above the mine the virtual line which come from the WN to a specific direction.
A very smart way to survey a mine in pre maps era. Why to survey the LDM which was/is no more 200 feet from the Casa Caverna?

 

[Oroblanco]

Another example of what happened to John Reed who didn't remember the exact region but only the mine site is Lydian Perrine, mother of Walter Perrine, who was remembering details about the gold cave site in the Superstitions but not about the the region or route where the cave was/is located.
Like John Reed, Lydian was about ten years old when at the cave site was lowered in the shaft and saw what the cave contained. She told to Walter with approximation where she believed the cave could be, but was proven wrong because her memory didn't help in that case.

Now about the Salazar survey which Mike mentioned, was not made for the LDM but for the Gonzalez-McDowell soldier-John Carrol-Two soldiers-Joe Deering-Jenkins( who was never at the site, nor his wife )-Haywood-Polka ( one of few he was aware ) mine.
To find this mine using the Salazar info described in the Peralta/Gonzalez survey, someone has to know three details: where is the " Casa Caverna " ( the two rooms house from Waltz clue ), the first summit from the Salt River close to the Peralta's camp there and the measurement in degrees to a specific direction from Weavers Needle. And why all these? Because the virtual line which connects the Casa Caverna with the top of the first summit, intersects above the mine the virtual line which come from the WN to a specific direction.
A very smart way to survey a mine in pre maps era. Why to survey the LDM which was/is no more 200 feet from the Casa Caverna?

I would have thought that by now, Marius, you would have already run into enough BS artists to have more caution in accepting what is claimed. We get a new person claiming to have found the LDM here on T-net fairly regularly. How many caves do you know of that have natural, hard rock gold deposits in them, for instance? Thanks in advance.

 

[markmar]

I would have thought that by now, Marius, you would have already run into enough BS artists to have more caution in accepting what is claimed. We get a new person claiming to have found the LDM here on T-net fairly regularly. How many caves do you know of that have natural, hard rock gold deposits in them, for instance? Thanks in advance.

I don't accept anything before do my own research. Listen, read but don't dismiss anything before is proven false.
And, Lydian Perrine was talking about gold bars in a cave ( my fault I didn't cleared out this in my previous post ) and not about hard rock gold deposit in a cave.

 

[azdave35]

I don't accept anything before do my own research. Listen, read but don't dismiss anything before is proven false.
And, Lydian Perrine was talking about gold bars in a cave ( my fault I didn't cleared out this in my previous post ) and not about hard rock gold deposit in a cave.

marius..i am not sure but i think that story came from jim hatt...if it did...then be highly suspect

 

[markmar]

marius..i am not sure but i think that story came from jim hatt...if it did...then be highly suspect

Could be Dave. I have thought Walter Perrine could have been another " dog barker " sent from others to find the cave with the gold bars like were LaFrance, Simpson ,etc., but I believe he was not, nor a BS artist.

 

[azdave35]

Could be Dave. I have thought Walter Perrine could have been another " dog barker " sent from others to find the cave with the gold bars like were LaFrance, Simpson ,etc., but I believe he was not, nor a BS artist.

i'm not sure either marius but i think the story and video came from jim hatt so i am suspect

 

[markmar]

i'm not sure either marius but i think the story and video came from jim hatt so i am suspect

I'm not suspect. I believe Jim put the story down like he has heard it from Walter Perrine. He also had Walter on tape and was not anything Jim had lift out of a hat.

 

[markmar]

Believe what you will. Don't expect me to buy REED's tales, sorry, too much guesswork and shoe-fitting to make it work. You are certainly welcome to believe his letters and trust every word. I believe I will have another coffee!

Roy, I can understand you very well. Take care of the curse in your future research in the Superstitions.

 

[azdave35]

I'm not suspect. I believe Jim put the story down like he has heard it from Walter Perrine. He also had Walter on tape and was not anything Jim had lift out of a hat.

marius....how do we know jim didnt coach walter on what to say...is there any real proof that walter ever existed?

 

[markmar]

marius....how do we know jim didnt coach walter on what to say...is there any real proof that walter ever existed?

Of course existed. Read the thread about his cave at the other bus station. Even his son wrote in that thread years after Jim's death.

 

[azdave35]

Of course existed. Read the thread about his cave at the other bus station. Even his son wrote in that thread years after Jim's death.

the other bus station is jim's old site

 

[markmar]

the other bus station is jim's old site

And what's wrong with this? Jim couldn't manipulate others posts. There are enough evidences Walter existed.

 

[azdave35]

And what's wrong with this? Jim couldn't manipulate others posts. There are enough evidences Walter existed.

take a trip out here sometime and mention his name...you will get an earfull

 

[somehiker]

the other bus station is jim's old site

Jim Bremner's......not Jim Hatt's.

 

[markmar]

take a trip out here sometime and mention his name...you will get an earfull

Ok. Let out Walter Perrine's grandmother as an example and take many others who went out the mountains holding a gold bar or nuggets from a cave ,but couldn't remember the route they followed to/from the source.