CLUES TO THE LOST DUTCMAN MINE

[somehiker]

According to what Reed said to Clay later, it was not a "placer".....

 

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[markmar]

IMO, the many potholes/waterholes, in the canyon below the LDM, is a result of an extensive digging and panning for placer gold, made by those who found the mine in the early of 19th century.

 

[gollum]

According to what Reed said to Clay later, it was not a "placer".....

It wasn't a placer. You don't typically get the kind of stuff to make the "Match Safe, Cufflinks, Stick Pin, and Watch Chain" from a placer deposit. They mostly come out as gold nuggets with little or no host rock (unless you just happen to find a big honkin' specimen in a creekbed).

Mike

 

[azdave35]

It wasn't a placer. You don't typically get the kind of stuff to make the "Match Safe, Cufflinks, Stick Pin, and Watch Chain" from a placer deposit. They mostly come out as gold nuggets with little or no host rock (unless you just happen to find a big honkin' specimen in a creekbed).

Mike

exactly..lol..mike..if you find one of those deposits let me know and i'll be happy to help you clean it out

 

[wrmickel1]

It wasn't a placer. You don't typically get the kind of stuff to make the "Match Safe, Cufflinks, Stick Pin, and Watch Chain" from a placer deposit. They mostly come out as gold nuggets with little or no host rock (unless you just happen to find a big honkin' specimen in a creekbed).



Mike

Mike

I don’t know about that, Dave just posted that only the little Triangles in the Match Box is Dutchman’s Ore. And the main box and inlays are not. So I suppose it is plausible,

Babymick1

 

[azdave35]

Mike

I don’t know about that, Dave just posted that only the little Triangles in the Match Box is Dutchman’s Ore. And the main box and inlays are not. So I suppose it is plausible,

Babymick1

mick...put the bottle down..you have no idea what you are talking about

 

[gollum]

Mike

I don’t know about that, Dave just posted that only the little Triangles in the Match Box is Dutchman’s Ore. And the main box and inlays are not. So I suppose it is plausible,

Babymick1

I think I missed that post Mick. Please show me! Thanks

Mike

 

[wrmickel1]

I think I missed that post Mick. Please show me! Thanks

Mike

It on the documented Evidence that Waltz worked at the Vulture Mine, Maybe page 4/5
Or the History Channel where Ron Feldman said some of the Dutchman’s Ore was sent to California and a Jeweler added some to a match box.

So that makes the Matchbox 98 percent not Dutchman’s Ore, That leaves the little triangles with a match to Dutchman’s ore. But which ones. I’m 99.9 percent sure which one contains the T thingy.

Babymick1

 

[Oroblanco]

Thanks for the correction (Abe vs John) and spelled Reid. However I would strongly suggest to read the correspondence between Reid and Adolph Ruth's son, in the period after the disappearance of Ruth. Reid was changing his tale and apparently fitting his story to what his listener(s) desired. Note also the repeated statements of taking the gold "NUGGETS" from WALZ. Note the mis-spelled name as well, which could be innocent.

I strongly suspect that Reid was an interloper, trying to insinuate himself into gaining some hunk of the proceeds for anyone who/whom might locate the LDM. He told Ely a different version from what he told Ruth, and drew different maps for each. I would NOT trust anything from Reid, sorry.



PS to anyone that does not have a copy of the Ruth-Reid letters, please contact me and I can send it to you by email. It was too large to attach to this post.

 

[somehiker]

Thanks for the correction (Abe vs John) and spelled Reid. However I would strongly suggest to read the correspondence between Reid and Adolph Ruth's son, in the period after the disappearance of Ruth. Reid was changing his tale and apparently fitting his story to what his listener(s) desired. Note also the repeated statements of taking the gold "NUGGETS" from WALZ. Note the mis-spelled name as well, which could be innocent.

I strongly suspect that Reid was an interloper, trying to insinuate himself into gaining some hunk of the proceeds for anyone who/whom might locate the LDM. He told Ely a different version from what he told Ruth, and drew different maps for each. I would NOT trust anything from Reid, sorry.



PS to anyone that does not have a copy of the Ruth-Reid letters, please contact me and I can send it to you by email. It was too large to attach to this post.

The Ruth-Reed letters are available here on Gary Cundiff's website......

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~gcun...an/ruth/clark/Reed, Letters 1930s (Rev a).pdf

Again, the correct spelling is "Reed".....not "Reid".

 

[somehiker]

Thanks for the correction (Abe vs John) and spelled Reid. However I would strongly suggest to read the correspondence between Reid and Adolph Ruth's son, in the period after the disappearance of Ruth. Reid was changing his tale and apparently fitting his story to what his listener(s) desired. Note also the repeated statements of taking the gold "NUGGETS" from WALZ. Note the mis-spelled name as well, which could be innocent.

In re-reading the letters from Reed to Ruth, it's apparent John Reed did not trust Northcut Ely's intentions, and that Ely was operating without informing Erwin Ruth of his actions. Therefore, it makes sense to me that what information he gave to Ely may have been somewhat deceptive for that reason.
Hard to say but, if if the mine was as rich as claimed, with gold in quartz so rich that it could be pried loose with a knife, and tiny nuggets of gold in black hematite as well, then what Reed saw as a young boy may very well have been all "nuggets" to him.
Perhaps this is where some of the confusion about placer vs shaft mine came from .....as well as the mention within the letters of another source of gold in a nearby canyon.

 

[Oroblanco]

In re-reading the letters from Reed to Ruth, it's apparent John Reed did not trust Northcut Ely's intentions, and that Ely was operating without informing Erwin Ruth of his actions. Therefore, it makes sense to me that what information he gave to Ely may have been somewhat deceptive for that reason.
Hard to say but, if if the mine was as rich as claimed, with gold in quartz so rich that it could be pried loose with a knife, and tiny nuggets of gold in black hematite as well, then what Reed saw as a young boy may very well have been all "nuggets" to him.
Perhaps this is where some of the confusion about placer vs shaft mine came from .....as well as the mention within the letters of another source of gold in a nearby canyon.

Sounds reasonable enough, but to me "nuggets" means placer not lode, REED was tailoring his tales to his targets, with an eye to getting a slice of the golden pie. You are certainly welcome to trust his word 100%.

 

[somehiker]

Reed's sketch and description with it doesn't show a placer deposit IMO....



And while Reed had contacted Erwin Ruth, whose father was still missing at the time, it was Bark and Ely who approached Reed for information. In none of the correspondence do I see any requests from Reed for compensation for anything. Doesn't sound like "targeting" on Reed's part to me.

 

[markmar]

Sounds reasonable enough, but to me "nuggets" means placer not lode, REED was tailoring his tales to his targets, with an eye to getting a slice of the golden pie. You are certainly welcome to trust his word 100%.

Roy

I believe nobody would trust 100% what a 12 years old boy would remember from a trip in the mountains after at least 35 years. He could remember only few things, like places and discussions, but all these in a random order.
Now, about the nuggets, maybe he has heard from his father to say how the pieces of gold which they got out from the quartz look like nuggets, and the kid kept this as a clue in his mind. Nothing wrong with this like nothing wrong if he wanted a share of the gold if his info would lead to the mine. I believe is the right way to exchange info about a rich gold mine.
From what I have read about the route Reed and his father followed to the mine and always IMHO, they used to approach the mine from the north side of the mountain, even if they would come in the Superstitions from the north or the south. Maybe was the way Reed's father first went to the mine site and didn't want to change this for his reasons. I say this because there are few different routes , from different directions, to approach the mine region before climb down to the mine/s.
John Reed , Clay and Aylor failed to find the mine in 1950 because the clues Reed have remembered were in a random order, something like the Julia's map.

 

[gollum]

Roy

I believe nobody would trust 100% what a 12 years old boy would remember from a trip in the mountains after at least 35 years. He could remember only few things, like places and discussions, but all these in a random order.
Now, about the nuggets, maybe he has heard from his father to say how the pieces of gold which they got out from the quartz look like nuggets, and the kid kept this as a clue in his mind. Nothing wrong with this like nothing wrong if he wanted a share of the gold if his info would lead to the mine. I believe is the right way to exchange info about a rich gold mine.
From what I have read about the route Reed and his father followed to the mine and always IMHO, they used to approach the mine from the north side of the mountain, even if they would come in the Superstitions from the north or the south. Maybe was the way Reed's father first went to the mine site and didn't want to change this for his reasons. I say this because there are few different routes , from different directions, to approach the mine region before climb down to the mine/s.
John Reed , Clay and Aylor failed to find the mine in 1950 because the clues Reed have remembered were in a random order, something like the Julia's map.

It would depend on how important the youth regarded the event. I was fourteen when I met Elvis Presley at Graceland. His cousin Patsy Presley used to date my Uncle Steve. She was giving my grandmother, myself, and a friend of mine a tour of the house. When we walked in the TV Room, Elvis was wearing a white robe, sitting on a couch watching four TVs. Nicest guy in the world. He came over and BS'ed with us for about half an hour. He took pics with us and autographed pics for all of us. This was at the end of July 1977. Two weeks later he was dead. See, I was only fourteen, and now I'm fifty-six. I still remember every detail of that day.

Mike

 

[markmar]

It would depend on how important the youth regarded the event. I was fourteen when I met Elvis Presley at Graceland. His cousin Patsy Presley used to date my Uncle Steve. She was giving my grandmother, myself, and a friend of mine a tour of the house. When we walked in the TV Room, Elvis was wearing a white robe, sitting on a couch watching four TVs. Nicest guy in the world. He came over and BS'ed with us for about half an hour. He took pics with us and autographed pics for all of us. This was at the end of July 1977. Two weeks later he was dead. See, I was only fourteen, and now I'm fifty-six. I still remember every detail of that day.

Mike

Yes, this could happens, but only for the time you have the intensive sentiments while met Elvis in his house. Can you remember what was the route you went at Elvis house in correct order?
Can you remember something from your 12's and to write a page of an event in a correct order? IMO, I don't think so.

 

[gollum]

Yes, this could happens, but only for the time you have the intensive sentiments while met Elvis in his house. Can you remember what was the route you went at Elvis house in correct order?
Can you remember something from your 12's and to write a page of an event in a correct order? IMO, I don't think so.

.......actually, yes. We took the 240 to Elvis Presley Blvd to Graceland. See, I remember almost everything about that day, the tour, the meeting, etc etc etc.

Like I said. It all boils down to the individual and how important the event was to them. If the kid didn't place any importance on going to a rich gold mine (unlikely) and was just following his dad, then no. He likely wasn't paying any attention except to his dads horses butt.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

One last thing concerning the veracity/credibility of John REED. Note that in his letters, he stated that he probably could not find the spot, whenever anyone seemed like they might be getting close. That with the "nuggets" statements should raise some red flags, at least it does for me.

 

[markmar]

One last thing concerning the veracity/credibility of John REED. Note that in his letters, he stated that he probably could not find the spot, whenever anyone seemed like they might be getting close. That with the "nuggets" statements should raise some red flags, at least it does for me.

Reed was the only person who used to say " nuggets " . Waltz said " my gold ". Maybe the word " nugget " was used like dude form of expession.

 

[arcana-exploration]

Hey, Wayne, like it had been said many times before, the only real proof of gold from the Dutchman site, are samples that match known samples. We have reason to believe there is then one location on the Dutchman's, mountain and there may be a second type(makeup) of gold also on site. We may be wrong but will reach these additional areas on our next trip. Also on taking samples, how would you recommend, doing so, considering all the issues in doing so?

Also two additional posts on our site, Red Herring and clue 24. Thanks Jeff.