CLUES TO THE LOST DUTCMAN MINE

[chlsbrns]

Oroblanco,
I am not sure to what degree you are joking if at all, but it seem that there is a conscious effort to dissuade people from searching the Sups. I always dismissed the "dark under-current" talk but I have found that it is real and something to be conscious of when researching. Exposing these people and their half truths is a great way to plug the holes.

The earliest "book" written on the DLM is said to date to 1895... Four years after his passing. I have not identified the tile yet but that is the date given in records. Any idea which book it could have been?

The earliest NEWSPAPER ARTICLE was in 1895. It was written by PC Bicknell a teller of "tall tales" who wrote numerous articles that appeared in newspapers and magazines. He also coined the term "Lost Dutchman"

To read the text in the image below "right click" & open in a new window then click the image again.

 

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[Somero]

Anyone here near 16th St at the Salt River?

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=2046...46+N+16th+St,+Phoenix,+Arizona+85006&t=h&z=17

What are they doing there? Digging what?

Waltz being a book publisher threw me off! It is starting to look like the Waltz mine was at his 160 acre homestead. (currently at or near 16th St at the Salt River) The stories could have been to keep people away from his home?

Not submitting a mining claim would make sense if there was gold on his homestead.

Are you allowed to metal detect the Salt River around 16th st? If it's allowed & I was there I would detect the crap out of the river area near 16th.

Watch the video FULL SCREEN!

First, Waltz's home was on the North side of the salt.
Second, that area is now in the industrial part of Phoenix. Actually looks like it has been used as a storage area for shipping containers. If memory serves, there were a few gravel quarry's through there over the years. the land is actually to low to build on and if you notice many areas fill with water occasionally. Metal detecting in an industrial area would be like looking for a piece of hay in a haystack, good luck with your research.


The Flood Control District of Maricopa County - History of Maricopa County Flooding

 

[Cubfan64]

Oh goodness, I really have a tough time communicating with you . I don't care if it is or is not on the internet. If you got it from the library, it must be a city directory published by a company under a specific name and with a certain publishing date. That's all I'm asking for.

chlsbrns

Can I assume that you don't know what the name or date was of the city directory you quoted with a J Waltz as a book publisher? That's news I haven't seen anyone else bring up before - ever - and there have been LOTS of people who have dug into records. If it's true and it fits in the timeframe of when "our" Jacob Waltz was living in Phoenix, it would be an interesting fact.

It must have been a relatively recent thing you found as you hadn't brought it up before. Perhaps another quick trip to the Library (which library was that by the way?) to look it up again and get those facts would be something you could do for those of us who don't live in the area?

Thanks

 

[chlsbrns]

It was a directory of the appropriate time. I don't remember the name of the directory. I found it at a library in AZ. When I was tracking down all the unknown/un-named mines from the USGS I came upon an undiscovered vein of gold that was within sight of one of the un-named mines. I found that the property was privately owned, tracked down the owners, contacted them & was invited by them at their expense to fly there and show them the location. Yes there is a vein of gold! While there I went to a few libraries and found the directory and had copies made of the relevant pages. I don't know which library or the name of the library. I found other information that I'll probably never post as I'm sick of being told what to do & being criticized.

The red text below is my signature. (for those who make unsubstantiated claims or comprehend things incorrectly) I don't care who searches for anything they choose to search for.

Unlike many I find it easier to disprove rather then to prove so that's what I do. If I find something that disproves or proves I usually post the info.

There are many who read but don't post. I'm sure many of them appreciate seeing facts as opposed to absurd statements such as skillets killed by angry Indians. I prefer to not have others ignoring laws & giving politicians reason to crack down on all aspects of treasure related activities. Others choose to blatantly ignore the laws or post half truths such as prospecting is allowed & leave out that an approved plan must be filed. At some point when they do crack down you can thank those who continually post that it's ok to ignore and violate the laws that protect federal lands owned by all. Or imply that it's ok. It's not OK!

 

[Somero]

It was a directory of the appropriate time. I don't remember the name of the directory. I found it at a library in AZ. When I was tracking down all the unknown/un-named mines from the USGS I came upon an undiscovered vein of gold that was within sight of one of the un-named mines. I found that the property was privately owned, tracked down the owners, contacted them & was invited by them at their expense to fly there and show them the location. Yes there is a vein of gold! While there I went to a few libraries and found the directory and had copies made of the relevant pages. I don't know which library or the name of the library. I found other information that I'll probably never post as I'm sick of being told what to do & being criticized.

The red text below is my signature. (for those who make unsubstantiated claims or comprehend things incorrectly) I don't care who searches for anything they choose to search for.

Unlike many I find it easier to disprove rather then to prove so that's what I do. If I find something that disproves or proves I usually post the info.

There are many who read but don't post. I'm sure many of them appreciate seeing facts as opposed to absurd statements such as skillets killed by angry Indians. I prefer to not have others ignoring laws & giving politicians reason to crack down on all aspects of treasure related activities. Others choose to blatantly ignore the laws or post half truths such as prospecting is allowed & leave out that an approved plan must be filed. At some point when they do crack down you can thank those who continually post that it's ok to ignore and violate the laws that protect federal lands owned by all. Or imply that it's ok. It's not OK!

So you found a vein of gold using G.E. or whatever records you claim to have found, called the property owner and they agreed to fly you here to show them where it is, as opposed to you giving them the information through a phone call or email so they could investigate it themselves. Now that is one heck of a sales pitch.

Got any pictures of your trip?

You really should read the rules for wilderness areas more carefully, they are not like National Parks.

Interesting that you also think something is up on the banks of the Salt River in the middle of an industrial park while using G.E.

I came upon an undiscovered vein of gold that was within sight of one of the un-named mines.

So this phrase would indicate you had visual recognition of a gold vein before ever reaching the site?

 

[Cubfan64]

It was a directory of the appropriate time. I don't remember the name of the directory. I found it at a library in AZ. When I was tracking down all the unknown/un-named mines from the USGS I came upon an undiscovered vein of gold that was within sight of one of the un-named mines. I found that the property was privately owned, tracked down the owners, contacted them & was invited by them at their expense to fly there and show them the location. Yes there is a vein of gold! While there I went to a few libraries and found the directory and had copies made of the relevant pages. I don't know which library or the name of the library. I found other information that I'll probably never post as I'm sick of being told what to do & being criticized.

The red text below is my signature. (for those who make unsubstantiated claims or comprehend things incorrectly) I don't care who searches for anything they choose to search for.

Unlike many I find it easier to disprove rather then to prove so that's what I do. If I find something that disproves or proves I usually post the info.

There are many who read but don't post. I'm sure many of them appreciate seeing facts as opposed to absurd statements such as skillets killed by angry Indians. I prefer to not have others ignoring laws & giving politicians reason to crack down on all aspects of treasure related activities. Others choose to blatantly ignore the laws or post half truths such as prospecting is allowed & leave out that an approved plan must be filed. At some point when they do crack down you can thank those who continually post that it's ok to ignore and violate the laws that protect federal lands owned by all. Or imply that it's ok. It's not OK!

Got it - so for the 2nd or 3rd time now you are yet again unable or unwilling to document your "facts" in such a way that anyone can independantly verify anything.

It's curious how you expect others to just accept your word as proof of things, but criticize when other people aren't able to provide documentation to prove their statements.

For all we know those are separate pages from an assortment of different directories from different years where someone named J Waltz happened to be a book publisher. They are completely meaningless without the source and reference.

I was hoping you could provide the information because I actually found it fascinating that the possibility exists that our J. Waltz truly was a book publisher - especially since nobody else had uncovered that information. New facts are hard to come by in the Lost Dutchman legends - this one would have been interesting. Unfortunately, it now falls into the category of more unsubstantiated claims - by someone who has a vested interest in proving that the whole LDM story is a fabrication.

 

[chlsbrns]

So you found a vein of gold using G.E. or whatever records you claim to have found, called the property owner and they agreed to fly you here to show them where it is, as opposed to you giving them the information through a phone call or email so they could investigate it themselves. Now that is one heck of a sales pitch.

Got any pictures of your trip?

You really should read the rules for wilderness areas more carefully, they are not like National Parks.

Interesting that you also think something is up on the banks of the Salt River in the middle of an industrial park while using G.E.



So this phrase would indicate you had visual recognition of a gold vein before ever reaching the site?

The two posts after my last post are more examples of why I'm hesitant to post anything.

"You really should read the rules for wilderness areas more carefully, they are not like National Parks"

Most Wilderness areas are in National Parks. All Wilderness areas are on Federal Lands!

National Park Service - NPSWilderness :

The Act further defined wilderness as "an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions . . . ."

"Interesting that you also think something is up on the banks of the Salt River in the middle of an industrial park while using G.E" I don't remember saying that? I though I was basing my thoughts on something that I read at a library?

"So you found a vein of gold using G.E. or whatever records you claim to have found, called the property owner and they agreed to fly you here to show them where it is, as opposed to you giving them the information through a phone call or email so they could investigate it themselves"

I told then on the phone and emailed the location/coordinates. They unfortunately do not have detecting equipment capable of detecting a vein so they flew me out and used my equipment to verify that there is a vein.

 

[chlsbrns]

Got it - so for the 2nd or 3rd time now you are yet again unable or unwilling to document your "facts" in such a way that anyone can independantly verify anything.

It's curious how you expect others to just accept your word as proof of things, but criticize when other people aren't able to provide documentation to prove their statements.

For all we know those are separate pages from an assortment of different directories from different years where someone named J Waltz happened to be a book publisher. They are completely meaningless without the source and reference.

I was hoping you could provide the information because I actually found it fascinating that the possibility exists that our J. Waltz truly was a book publisher - especially since nobody else had uncovered that information. New facts are hard to come by in the Lost Dutchman legends - this one would have been interesting. Unfortunately, it now falls into the category of more unsubstantiated claims - by someone who has a vested interest in proving that the whole LDM story is a fabrication.

I gave more than my word, I posted a video of the pages. If you choose to imply that I am a liar & choose to believe that I somehow compiled the pages from different sources that's not my problem. You can believe whatever you want to believe.

My unverifiable beliefs are that he had a source of gold that he obtained legally over and above what he stole, robbed and killed for.

After visiting the library it made me think that his homestead could have been a source of gold. Rivers move. His homestead appears to now be property south of the river.

"New facts are hard to come by" Are you saying that there are facts? Can you please post some facts? Please include dates, page numbers, names, edition numbers, links and everything else that you demand from me.

 

[Somero]

"Interesting that you also think something is up on the banks of the Salt River in the middle of an industrial park while using G.E" I don't remember saying that? I though I was basing my thoughts on something that I read at a library?

Don't recall seeing anything about your "thoughts" from a library, just a video showing G.E. timeline and a question of "What are they Digging?" Apparently nothing since there is no heavy equipment in the area.

 

[Somero]

Anyone here near 16th St at the Salt River?

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=2046...46+N+16th+St,+Phoenix,+Arizona+85006&t=h&z=17

What are they doing there? Digging what?

Waltz being a book publisher threw me off! It is starting to look like the Waltz mine was at his 160 acre homestead. (currently at or near 16th St at the Salt River) The stories could have been to keep people away from his home?

Not submitting a mining claim would make sense if there was gold on his homestead.

If you are referring about the statement "Waltz as a Publisher" as your library "thought" you failed to specify that or provide any info that he was a Publisher, so it seems more a random hearsay moment of your opinion, much like your thoughts on wilderness area rules being your opinionated interpretation, which you seem to have a lot of. Without providing the basis of your information other than random cut and paste, it makes it difficult to accept you opinion as fact.

 

[Cubfan64]

I gave more than my word, I posted a video of the pages. If you choose to imply that I am a liar & choose to believe that I somehow compiled the pages from different sources that's not my problem. You can believe whatever you want to believe.

My unverifiable beliefs are that he had a source of gold that he obtained legally over and above what he stole, robbed and killed for.

After visiting the library it made me think that his homestead could have been a source of gold. Rivers move. His homestead appears to now be property south of the river.

"New facts are hard to come by" Are you saying that there are facts? Can you please post some facts? Please include dates, page numbers, names, edition numbers, links and everything else that you demand from me.

Certainly - I'll be happy to. I'm at work right now, but should be home later this evening and will post a number of facts in regards to Jacob Waltz and I'll be more than happy to provide the means for anyone out there to go look the information up for themselves.

By the way, I noticed you deleted your post with the city directory page of J Waltz as a book publisher. Any particular reason?

 

[chlsbrns]

If you are referring about the statement "Waltz as a Publisher" as your library "thought" you failed to specify that or provide any info that he was a Publisher, so it seems more a random hearsay moment of your opinion, much like your thoughts on wilderness area rules being your opinionated interpretation, which you seem to have a lot of. Without providing the basis of your information other than random cut and paste, it makes it difficult to accept you opinion as fact.

"you failed to specify that or provide any info that he was a Publisher"

I posted pictures of pages from a directory in a video that showed J Waltz was a book publisher, Julia Thomas had an oyster parlor & confectionary, that RJ Holmes who allegedly took Waltz's gold from under his deathbed was a cattleman, Holmes's son, a bunch of Peralta's were shown, G Roberts who was alleged to be with Holmes when Holmes was alleged to have taken Waltz's gold & Bicknell – The reporter & Story Teller who wrote the Jan 13, 1895 article & numerous other articles & Tall Tales in newspapers & magazines was also shown in the directory. All the players were in the same directory. I'm assuming that you didn't see it but others did.

I took down the video of the directory pages when the usual wise butt comments were made. If I have to be abused each time I post facts I'll delete the facts & let you believe what you choose to believe.

 

[Somero]

I'm assuming that you didn't see it but others did.

I took down the video of the directory pages when the usual wise butt comments were made. If I have to be abused each time I post facts I'll delete the facts & let you believe what you choose to believe.

If they are relevant, why take them down

 

[sgtfda]

I suspect the Dutchman had gold from various places. The gold from the LDM was described as pea size in quartz in several stories of those who found it or looked at the ore. The matchbox is a different type. You can't assume the candle box gold came from the Superstition mine. It is not unusual for prospectors to save good samples. There is gold in the Salt. For the most part it's fine gold washed out of the hills.

 

[Cubfan64]

I have a sample running, so have time for the first fact - I apologize to all those of you who already know these facts, but I was asked to provide some, so bear with me:

1880 Federal United States Census
City of Phoenix, County of Maricopa, Territory of Arizona
Supervisors District no. 5
Enumeration District no. 18
Page 3

A Jacob Waltz is listed as being the only person living at the 19th dwelling/house visited by the census taker and living very closely to an Andrew and Jacob Starr as they were the next dwelling on the list. They are possibly Andrew and Jacob Starrar who are mentioned in parts of the LDM legend who lived adjacent to Waltz.

Waltz is listed as a white male, 70 years of age and single. He is listed as being a farmer by occupation and as being ill at the time of the census. His place of birth is given to be Prussia as is the birth place of his father and mother.

The census taker (L.E. Ranley? - hard to tell from the script) does not list the specific day he visited Waltz, but his entries on page 2 were from June 1, 1880.

The following link will take you to an image of the actual census page, however I believe you need to be a subscribed member of Ancestry to view it. Another option would be to contact a local library and access it if they provide the service.

http://interactive.ancestry.com/6742/4239797-00185/43310278?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.com%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3d1880usfedcen%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d0%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3djacob%26gsln%3dwaltz%26msrpn__ftp%3darizona%26dbOnly%3d_83004005%257c_83004005_x%252c_83004006%257c_83004006_x%252c_F000279A%257c_F000279A_x%26uidh%3dpdd%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d0%26h%3d43310278%26recoff%3d%26ml_rpos%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord#?imageId=4239797-00185

 

[chlsbrns]

I have a sample running, so have time for the first fact - I apologize to all those of you who already know these facts, but I was asked to provide some, so bear with me:

1880 Federal United States Census
City of Phoenix, County of Maricopa, Territory of Arizona
Supervisors District no. 5
Enumeration District no. 18
Page 3

A Jacob Waltz is listed as being the only person living at the 19th dwelling/house visited by the census taker and living very closely to an Andrew and Jacob Starr as they were the next dwelling on the list. They are possibly Andrew and Jacob Starrar who are mentioned in parts of the LDM legend who lived adjacent to Waltz.

Waltz is listed as a white male, 70 years of age and single. He is listed as being a farmer by occupation and as being ill at the time of the census. His place of birth is given to be Prussia as is the birth place of his father and mother.

The census taker (L.E. Ranley? - hard to tell from the script) does not list the specific day he visited Waltz, but his entries on page 2 were from June 1, 1880.

The following link will take you to an image of the actual census page, however I believe you need to be a subscribed member of Ancestry to view it. Another option would be to contact a local library and access it if they provide the service.

http://interactive.ancestry.com/6742/4239797-00185/43310278?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.com%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3d1880usfedcen%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d0%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3djacob%26gsln%3dwaltz%26msrpn__ftp%3darizona%26dbOnly%3d_83004005%257c_83004005_x%252c_83004006%257c_83004006_x%252c_F000279A%257c_F000279A_x%26uidh%3dpdd%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d0%26h%3d43310278%26recoff%3d%26ml_rpos%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord#?imageId=4239797-00185

I'm not signing up at ancestry.com so I'll take your word for it I spite of three problems! Waltz's grave stone says that he was born in 1808 meaning that he would be 72 in an 1880 census not 70. 2nd problem there is no LE Ranley in the directory. 3rd problem 160 acres is a fairly large area. It's doubtful that someone could be "living very close"

You can't take a screen shot?

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

to use as a dating method, waltz's grave stone is problematic .

i seem to recollect that there is some suspicion on just who is in that grave...
done..thank you.

 

[chlsbrns]

What isn't problematic when it comes to Waltz? I don't think anyone is in that grave. It's probably there as a tourist attraction being that the grave marker says lost Dutchman, a term that wasn't coined until long after his death.

 

[chlsbrns]

Is this it?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SgdzKIc9G...880UnitedStatesFederalCensusForJacobWaltz.jpg

 

[chlsbrns]

The ship manifest would make Waltz 69 in 1880.