Civil War Confederate Flag Pen?

[aurumdigga]

I found two odd items that are in the Atlanta Battlefield area. I also found a three ringer bullet within a few yards of these items.

The Civil War Confederate Flag item may be an after the war pen of some kind. I included the back of it but the back doesn't give me a clue as to what this item was for. I would appreciate anyone's input on this.

The piece of button is a Scottish Coat of Arms from what my research found. I found a 50's era button that was similar but this button seems to be older in my opinion. It is just the front of a button.....maybe a two piece design.

The writing on the button is .....SPECTEMUR AGENDO.

I am really curious about this Flag item. It would be cool if it was a Civil War period piece.

Thanks folks!

 

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[aurumdigga]

I had looked at lots of pins and many are as small as yours. You can't guage size by looking at a picture on your monitor, as it is not actual size and it varies depending on your monitor size and what resolution you have it set to. But a lot of the pins in your BING search had links to their websites and many listed the actual size.

Also, I've seen fridge magnets as small as 1/2" x 1/2", just none that small with a confederate flag yet, although I did find a 1" round one. 1" Round Rebel Magnet

You are exactly right Gsnoopy, the dimensions on one of these pins is almost exactly the same as mine.

I think I will buy one to see what the back looks like. I don't think it will be this round metal thing on mine though. Buying one is the only way to tell it seems, but the construction on the front is the same. Although, I would think that these pins might hold up better in the ground for a long while. Mine doesn't seem to have as much clear enameling as these pins seem to have.

 

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[GpSnoopy]

These aren't the same, just was showing that they are available in sizes as small as yours. As you yourself found out while researching, the Confederate flag is a very popular design, and has been used in a countless variety of items, and basically remained the same design for over a hundred years. Dating yours may be difficult to impossible, unless we can find a match that shows a purpose for the circular hole. I'm still leaning towards a magnet, as I remember seeing magnetic letters, bugs, buttons that small with small 3/8" magnets glued on the back.

 

[GpSnoopy]

The pin may be 50 years old. Do magnets rust? http://www.ehow.com/facts_6828874_effect-rust-magnets.html

It appears so from the link you provided.

Rust will decrease the strength of a magnet as it eats through the magnet;

Here's a picture of a rusted magnet I got from a fishtank forum, so wouldn't be that old of a magnet.

 

[aurumdigga]

The pin may be 50 years old. Do magnets rust? http://www.ehow.com/facts_6828874_effect-rust-magnets.html

I think your link confirms what I was saying. Chromium Nickel will not oxidize like this. This round casing was not the leftover casing from an earth magnet inside of a Chromium Nickel casing.

If it was an iron magnet, the whole magnet would have been gone or rusted away with no type of outer casing left intact since the magnet was just one solid piece. The rust would be uniform on this type of iron magnet.

 

[aurumdigga]

These aren't the same, just was showing that they are available in sizes as small as yours. As you yourself found out while researching, the Confederate flag is a very popular design, and has been used in a countless variety of items, and basically remained the same design for over a hundred years. Dating yours may be difficult to impossible, unless we can find a match that shows a purpose for the circular hole. I'm still leaning towards a magnet, as I remember seeing magnetic letters, bugs, buttons that small with small 3/8" magnets glued on the back.

I agree Gsnoopy, since this piece was found in an area where the Battle of Atlanta occurred, there could have been enameled pieces like this made after the Civil War to show that a person was proud of their heritage or proud of their links to the event ......especially in this Civil War war zone.

 

[GpSnoopy]

Often, the magnets are only plated or coated with nickel chromium, or some other material, to resist corrosion. If that coating gets damaged, then any magnet with Fe (iron) in the composition may start to erode under the right conditions.

 

[aurumdigga]

The pin may be 50 years old. Do magnets rust? http://www.ehow.com/facts_6828874_effect-rust-magnets.html

It appears so from the link you provided.

Rust will decrease the strength of a magnet as it eats through the magnet;

Here's a picture of a rusted magnet I got from a fishtank forum, so wouldn't be that old of a magnet.

I just caught that fish tank photo of the magnet & how it deteriorated. Mine looks like a hollow circle. This circle of metal could have been twice high coming off of the piece. As far as the rusting goes, my piece wasn't uniform like that....... I think.....just think mind you, that this circle could have lined up with some post & this item may have been glued or soldered to a cam post. I do not know how they adhered things of metal to other pieces of metal back then.

This circle is attached in some way to the back of the piece......how I don't know. If I could find out how it was adhered to the piece, this could date it. But that would be hard to find out. I think a lot of heat could have damaged the enameled piece....I guess.

Did they use solder 100 years ago? Who knows?

 

[aurumdigga]

I talked to my detecting buddy about this Flag item. He pointed out something to me that I had forgotten.

The site where I found this was in some grass on the school grounds of a school that was built in the 1920's. Apparently, a house was torn down to build this school. This item was found on the edge of the woods that this lot bumped up against.

So, this item was in the debris as they built this school. Since we found three ringer bullets there also, I can only suspect that the ground we hunted was either left fairly intact after they razed this house. These grounds would have been in the back yard of this house.

So, this item is at least 90+ years old & could much older considering the location of the property to the school.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

BigCypressHunter wrote:
> I dont want to beat a dead horse but I want to learn.

I applaud your attitude ...a desire to KEEP ON learning. If I may humbly say, some people who've read my posts think I must be really smart ...but they are incorrect. I don't think my IQ is above-average. What people see in my posts is the result of my un-ending pursuit of additional knowledge, even though my school-age years were finished. Keep on seeking new Knowledge, people. Also, ignore people who make fun of you for asking questions.

> I realize enameling is old so I thought it best to date it by the base metal and/or plating.
> The OP hasn't told us whether its brass or pot metal. Electroplating is not CW era I don't believe.

Speaking as a guy who has spent decades doing research "the hard way" in a library... it is SO cool to be an American with internet-access in the 21st-Century. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroplating

> With your experience, could there be any other type of nickel plating done during
> the Civil War era on small items such as this?

Nickel-plating on insignia and "jewelry-type" items does not seem to have been done in America until after the civil war era. For example, I do know for certain that there is no American nickel-plated Military insignia nor American Military buttons until approximately the 1880s. Also, you don't see nickel-plated pocketwatches and eating-utensils until about a decade or two after the civil war. I think that is because the advent of Electrical Generators for use in manufacturing electroplated items did not occur until about the latter-1800s (as the Wikipedia article mentions). The presence of nickel-plating is generally accepted as a reliable sign that an antique metal object is post-civil-war era.

 

[aurumdigga]

"Soon after, John Wright of Birmingham, England discovered that potassium cyanide was a suitable electrolyte for gold and silver electroplating. Wright's associates, George Elkington and Henry Elkington were awarded the first patents for electroplating in 1840. These two then founded the electroplating industry in Birmingham from where it spread around the world."

Thanks for the link. This piece could have been electroplated on copper. This link explains that this was being done.

Another quote: By 1839, scientists in Britain and Russia had independently devised metal deposition processes similar to Brugnatelli's for the copper electroplating of printing press plates.

If you could electroplate copper on to metal, it seems that you could also do the reverse....or this was at least being worked with 15 years before the Civil war. 15 years is a long time to work with electroplating to get the kinks out of the process.

As far as enameling goes, enameling was started in Russia in 1760. The link to this history is here. http://russian-crafts.com/crafts-history/enamel-history.html

This 1920's school that I mentioned was far smaller than it is today. The school has a new wing and the original building is a brick 2 story building. This find was on the very edge of the grounds. About three feet from where I dug this up, there is a boulder that is at least 4 tons in weight sitting on a spot. It is weathered and rounded. I will take a picture next time I go. The weather has been against us for about ten days now for making another trip.

Also, the three ringer bullets that we found were no more than 4 inches deep. (How an Etrac missed this is puzzling to me. The crew that hunted this before us used two Etracs and a Safari.) So, this ground was disturbed but not completely razzed by dozers used in 1920. There were mercury dimes found on this same plot also.

My point about the "Bloods Turf" was to emphasize that since about 1980, at least, this area of town is mostly made up of blacks buying up these older houses & populating the area. Block busting started here in the 60's. That is where one black family was assisted financially so that property values would decline and thus there was a quick sell off whites leaving and blacks coming in to homes that had been devalued. I know this sounds bad but this is what happened.

I don't think that from about 1970 onward, you would have anyone wearing a piece like this. So this makes the find at least 40+ years old.

The fact that this school was built in a posh area at the time of 1920, suggests that this find was 1920 or before the school was built since there have not been any other homes built near this school since that time.

So it is quite possible for this to be a period piece since the technology was in place. Like any new technology, it was popular as it caught on because it was new and made beautiful things.

I did post that one Civil War General wore an enameled piece during the Atlanta campaign. It was enameled on gold. So before the war, pieces like this were being made & this example says that at least on Civil War Soldier wore and enameled piece.

I too have learned a lot during this discourse. I want to thank everyone who posted. I too think that you have given up on life if you quit trying to learn new things. I have learned a lot here.

 

[aurumdigga]

http://www.collectorsarmoury.com/Civil-War-Confederate-Flag-Lapel-Pin/productinfo/14-212/

The link above is the enameled pin worn by General Robert E. Lee.

Also, not the Flag shape. This is an obvious rectangle.

I can't find the picture where I saw this pin on the General's uniform, but I did see it when I was researching. I will look again when I have time.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Before tempers get out of control... here's a simple-but-accurate summary of the situation, and a simple solution.

Like nearly all relic-diggers (including me), Aurumdigger very much wants his find to be a valuable Confederate civil war era military relic. It's only natural for a digger to be "resistant" to hearing that his find isn't a civil war relic.

So, Aurumdigger, since you disagree with what you are hearing here in the What-Is-It forum, and you live in the Atlanta area, take your flag-pin to Stone Mountain Relics for a real-life examination by the well-respected longtime (40-years) civil war relic-dealer who owns that relic-shop. His name is Charles Nash.

And, if you want additional opinions, Mr. Nash can refer you to several other longtime civil war relic experts in the Atlanta area.

 

[aurumdigga]

I only brought up the dimes that were found & the depth of the three ringers to sort of give an idea of the area. I think my buddy found a 1910 wheat there too.

I am not saying for sure that this is a Civil War era piece. I just brought up the possibility since the technology of the times, as others have posted about here & I did research on, confirms the possibility of this piece being Civil War era or even early post Civil War era because the technology was in place to make this piece then.

My points were to point out that this piece is not some modern day piece that was dropped here in the back of this black only school here in Atlanta. I mean, what black person would wear something like this to school?

Of course it could be 50-60 years old.... but... there is the possibility of this being an late 1800's piece. I was just giving more information about the site so that anybody could understand why I am still thinking this piece could be 90+ year old piece.

If you fought in the war in the 1860's, you were either in your teens or older. It would be only 55 years to 1920 when this school was built from the beginning date of the Civil war. If you wore this and dropped it before the school was built, you would be in the range of 70 years old if your were fifteen when you entered the war in 1865 & dropped it on the date of 1920.

So, I am saying that a person that was in the war or was showing how proud they were to have relatives in the war dropped this before 1920. There is no traffic in this area that would have caused this to be buried about 4 inches since 1920. The dimes and pennies were much shallower than the bullets and this piece that I found.

I am just trying to be a detective with the little bit of info that is available. I am not discounting anything that anyone says. I am just pointing out the math and the knowledge of the area that I have to make a good estimate of when the piece was dropped.

Rain is now predicted for the weekend here. Unless this changes, it will be another eleven days before we can go digging in that area again. I found another structure near this site that was there in 1938 but gone in 1955. This structure could have been 50 years old before it was taken away between 1935 & 1955. So, I am itching to go again but the weather keeps us away.

 

[aurumdigga]

OH yea, I left out one other point I wanted to make. It has been suggested here that this is refrigerator magnet piece. Of course if this piece was from someone that lived in the house that was torn down to build this school in 1920, we can pretty much say there were few or any refrigerators were used before 1920 in this area.

In 1922 a refrigerator sold for $714. A Model A Ford sold for about $450.

I doubt that Fridge Magnets were a rage before the 50's......just guessing on that.

Here is the info on refrigerators:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator

 

[aurumdigga]

I am going to stop posting here because I dont want to bump it up.

This thread needs to be moved to Comedy Central.

I saw where you posted and then took it back..... and now you posted again on this thread.

You are just annoyed because I squashed your opinion that this piece is older than you say it could be. I used common sense with the information that is available. All you contributed was your opinion. Now your opinion and those that read your posts here see that your opinion can be wrong. So that annoys the crap out of you. That is all this is about.

Just by posting here incessantly with only opinions is telling..... especially since I didn't roll over and succumb to your OPINION.

I appreciate everybody that posted here. The frige magnet was a possibility until we found out that magnets erode uniformly. I wasn't cutting down anyone by posting about the history of fridge magnets. I was just taking that notion off the possibility of this piece being a frige magnet.

When I do have time, I will go to Stone Mountain with the piece. Thanks for the advice to go there from that guy who posted with that idea.

I want to beat this site to death before I go to see this person at the Stone Mountain museum. I haven't been there since the 70's. I might find something else that is almost impossible to explain.

The game is on this weekend. The forecast has changed and there is only a 20% chance of rain instead of 60%. I am sure I will find something to show again from this next trip. My buddy & I found $5+ a piece in clad the first time we hunted another area of the school. This means that no Detectorists have really hit this place hard if we could find that much clad.

 

[aurumdigga]

I saw where you posted and then took it back..... and now you posted again on this thread.

You are just annoyed because I squashed your opinion that this piece is older than you say it could be. I used common sense with the information that is available. All you contributed was your opinion. Now your opinion and those that read your posts here see that your opinion can be wrong. So that annoys the crap out of you. That is all this is about.

Just by posting here incessantly with only opinions is telling..... especially since I didn't roll over and succumb to your OPINION.

Yes you are a bit annoying. As my buddy SWR would say "you found chicken poop and you're trying to convince us its chicken salad."

I removed my posts beacause it wont do any good. One of the posts I removed went something like this: Electric motors were invented before the Civil War but I wouldnt be so bold as to try and claim it was Confederate, even if I found it in a Gettysburgh trench.

The game is on this weekend. The forecast has changed and there is only a 20% chance of rain instead of 60%. I am sure I will find something to show again from this next trip. My buddy & I found $5+ a piece in clad the first time we hunted another area of the school. This means that no Detectorists have really hit this place hard if we could find that much clad.

Im not sure if you are trying to ridicule this forum. I first thought you were in high school but I suspect you are just very uninformed and stubborn, as well as uneducated. You said yourself that clad is being found. Its obviously a modern site that probably has some CW artifacts mixed in, but besides the bullet, you havent found any yet. The flag and button are not considered artifacts and are monetarily worthless. A civilian blazer button and a modern flag trinket thats most likey a refrigerator magnet. How do you know it wasnt stolen by the Blood Gang and tossed away as trash? It is what it is. This is not only my opinion. It is the opinion of every member that bothered to try and help you.

I would love you to prove us wrong. Do you know why? Because that would mean that we have learned something new and we will be smarter next time. Unlike yourself, I love to learn. But I see nothing of substance in your rambling accusations. Keep posting if you wish. I dont see how I can be of any more help.

I quoted you so that you wouldn't erase the last post.

It is good that you removed all of your posts. They were not helpful a bit. Your posts were just raw opinion of what you think. If this forum relied on what people think, nothing would be solved on this "What Is It?" thread forum.

Again, you are just annoyed because I didn't agree with just about anything you said. I know the area where I am hunting and you don't. I would never tell someone that the area that they are hunting is this or that. What the heck do I know. You seemed to want to argue about the merit of the location I am hunting. Come on, finding two three ringers in a few hours of time is a great sign that this place is loaded with more.

As far as this site goes, there are two football fields, a track, & a baseball field on this property. Obviously these are modern or 1920 additions to the school. We first detected a baseball field & one football field. We later found out that there was new dirt on top of the older fields that were there in 1920. There was clad galore here. Of course we didn't find Civil War era finds here.

If you had read anything that I said, you would have realized intuitively that there were playing fields or areas that were built for the school that were newer than the ground that I was detecting when I found this piece. Of course clad could be found in any school yard.... or you could have asked.....but.... you wanted to be irritating and make some outlandish statement because we found clad there. You seemed to be salivating at the chance to say something negative here.

I was only pointing out that if a detectorist had been on this property before us we wouldn't have been finding clad every five feet in ball fields & on the school grounds.

There are woods that have been there since 1938 from satellite data we have. It doesn't go back any further than that. So my comments about new areas to hunt are about untouched Civil War era grounds. There are acres and acres to hunt here. This property is like a school with a large park next to it that was never finished.

Your comments/opinions here had zero merit in my opinion. It is hard to make sense out of nonsense.

We should all pray that you deal with your difficulties in maintaining a civil demeanor here & on other threads in this forum. This is just a treasure hunting forum.

I suggest that you go get yourself another couple of cases of beer and chill out. As an ex-bartender, I think this is some sound advice.

 

[aurumdigga]

Again, you are just annoyed because I didn't agree with just about anything you said. I know the area where I am hunting and you don't. I would never tell someone that the area that they are hunting is this or that. What the heck do I know. You seemed to want to argue about the merit of the location I am hunting. Come on, finding two three ringers in a few hours of time is a great sign that this place is loaded with more.

I am not much annoyed yet but I will be if you keep misquoting me. I NEVER said or implied that your in a bad area or that it doesnt have good sign. You just havent found them yet. I am only here to help ID your 2 finds. (button and flag) Do you have a learning disorder?

Looking forward to seeing your future finds. I said it before and Im serious. You are making a big deal out of nothing. I suggest you complain to the moderators if you dont like my opinions.

"Its obviously a modern site that probably has some CW artifacts mixed in, but besides the bullet, you havent found any yet."

The quote above is from you. This quote only shows that you never read anything that I wrote on this property.

I tried again to post about the property in the last post, but your ability to comprehend the data is obviously not working for you. I went in great detail about the property site.....yet.... you make a generalization about this property by saying the property is obviously a modern site. So, a School that was built in 1920 is a modern site to you....interesting. I tried to explain about the woods & I am not going to do it again here. If you read my last post, you would realize that this Civil War site/property has nothing to do with the school. We just hunted thee school too. Can you understand that?

The find that I have was on the outer edge of the School property that would have been the yard of the house that was torn down. I mentioned that in earlier posts.

All I wanted was somebody that might have seen a similar piece somewhere to post about it. The back of this item does not conform with a pin or a magnet being there. It is odd. The piece was found on a known Civil War battle area.....The Battle of Atlanta. That is why I am curious about this simple piece.

The last thing I am going to do is to give co-ordinates to this site to anyone here to verify the certainty that this is a Civil War battleground site. I already know it is.

Go bother somebody else. I don't need Treasure Net to intercede on anything. Just quit your inane posting here and everything will be mighty fine.

The only reason I have not been back is because of the weather not co-operating with the times I have to go hunting.

Look, you are making a fool of yourself here. Give it up.

 

[aurumdigga]

Oh yes, I forgot. I mentioned earlier in this thread that my buddy found a compressed three ringer near my three ringer and this small flag piece that I found.

This compressed bullet is under the gold ring he found on the school grounds. I had forgotten about the gold ring. The gold ring is an obvious newer piece that some student dropped. The rest of the finds are Civil War period pieces or near Civil War period pieces.

 

[Truth]

I love that flag


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[trdking]

Thanks bigcypresshunter

I think this button has been around a long time. It is a curious piece.

The enameled button is old considering the back of the piece. I am just wondering how old.

Since no one has come forward about the Flag item, I guess this goes in the books as one of those pieces that can't be identified.

The mystery continues for me.

Thank you everybody for the input.

If it doesn't say Made In China on the back, you might be onto something!