Cave of gold bars

[Ryano]

Thanks for replies, Mike and Somehiker.

 

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[markmar]

I believe you have understood how there is not only a single cave of gold bars .

BlackLine was looking for the W Perrine's cave of gold bars , which is a long hallway with few rooms on one side , filled with gold bars and other stuff .
And we have the cave from Conatser's book , wich is " with one chamber above the other " .

So , two different clues for two different caves of gold bars . IMO , close to each other but not in sight of each other .

 

[cactusjumper]

I've been meaning to go through my notes for the sources, dates and other circumstances for this, but wasn't it Roxas who went awol for a time ?
Also, one of the Fathers whose journals we do have, had noted when he first arrived at Casa Grande (post Kino), that excavations had been made within one of the other compounds...."B" perhaps, by the description. Was it dug by Kino or one of the other Jesuits, and did they find something worth hiding elsewhere ? A GPR done by Richard Robinson and his group also showed a large anomaly outside the doorway to the Main Building of compound "A", but the NPS refused them permission to dig......no surprise there.

Wayne,

I believe Father Rojas was sick for the first two years of his Visitor General term. He was unable to make his rounds. Not home right now, but I'm pretty sure that was the case.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

In Feb., 2003 I wrote this:

"Father Carlos Rojas was appointed visitor General in 1764. These "Soldiers of God" were appointed for three years, normally. This was the same term served by California's (Baja) Padre Visitador. Father Rojas's job was to visit the missions, including the most remote, and bring back reports of their hardships and accomplishments. He was sick during the first two years of his appointment. The Vistadores Generals did not make regular or frequent visits so his absence from the missions was not something of note. As I have said before, he did manage to make one trip in 1766. Considering his health problems, it is amazing that he survived the forced march during the expulsion since only half of the Black Robes working in Pimeria Alta lived through it. Many of those who did survive the march and subsequent period of house arrest ended up in Russia and Brazil.

The reason there is no mention of Jesuit led mining in the Superstitions, is because they did none. The Priests kept precise records and they have survived. The Jesuit's needed Indian labor to work the fields and any mines they located. Hostile natives kept them from working many mines in their areas of influence. The mines that were worked in the Superstitions were Peralta not Jesuit. The Jesuit Treasure was placed in the Superstitions by the Peraltas, not the Jesuits. If they had hidden the treasure, it would be in church coffers now. They lost control of the treasure and the maps showing it's location by letting the Peraltas keep the records during their absence.

It is highly unlikely that Father Rojas ever laid eyes on the Superstition Mountains, let alone entered them without a large party of Indians and soldiers. There is not the slightest hint in church records that such an event occurred. That is no guarantee that it did not happen, but the records that do exist make it highly unlikely. In my humble and somewhat uninformed opinion, no one will find a mine or church treasure by researching the activities of Father Carlos Rojas. The history of the Jesuits in the New World, however, is more than worth that effort."

All of that came from books that I have done my research from.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[gollum]

So, you're saying that the Jesuits began caching valuables in Arizona two years prior to the expulsion?

I am saying that I think it was more likely than not that Jesuits worldwide in Spanish Lands were not completely surprised in 1767.

The Jesuits were/are not stupid people. They were suppressed in Asia, in 1759 in all of Portugal's Lands Worldwide, in 1764 in all of France's Lands Worldwide. The writing was certainly on the wall for everybody to see. Royal Families all over the world were sick and tired of all the political intrigues the Jesuit Order had involved itself in. They knew they had been trying to undermine the rule of Charles III since his coronation. They also knew they had powerful enemies that were close to the King in both Bishop Palafox and Minister Pombal. It was only a matter of time before Spain followed suit with the rest of the world in suppressing the Order.

Jesuit Territories were subdivided into Rectorates. It is possible the French Suppressions caught them by surprise, and they needed to step up keeping their wealth out of Spanish Hands. I think the visitador general of each Rectorate was responsible for hiding the wealth of that Rectorate. I think they were trying to move all their wealth through Galveston Bay to Rome in the East, and through Baja to Manilla (an important Jesuit Colony) in the West. They were very careful to move wealth through areas that were unpopulated and remote, so as to remove the possibility of their mule trains of being observed. I also believe that was one of the main reasons for all the entradas. Trying to find new routes to move wealth to Rome or Catholic Colonies.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

I am saying that I think it was more likely than not that Jesuits worldwide in Spanish Lands were not completely surprised in 1767.

The Jesuits were/are not stupid people. They were suppressed in Asia, in 1759 in all of Portugal's Lands Worldwide, in 1764 in all of France's Lands Worldwide. The writing was certainly on the wall for everybody to see. Royal Families all over the world were sick and tired of all the political intrigues the Jesuit Order had involved itself in. They knew they had been trying to undermine the rule of Charles III since his coronation. They also knew they had powerful enemies that were close to the King in both Bishop Palafox and Minister Pombal. It was only a matter of time before Spain followed suit with the rest of the world in suppressing the Order.

Jesuit Territories were subdivided into Rectorates. It is possible the French Suppressions caught them by surprise, and they needed to step up keeping their wealth out of Spanish Hands. I think the visitador general of each Rectorate was responsible for hiding the wealth of that Rectorate. I think they were trying to move all their wealth through Galveston Bay to Rome in the East, and through Baja to Manilla (an important Jesuit Colony) in the West. They were very careful to move wealth through areas that were unpopulated and remote, so as to remove the possibility of their mule trains of being observed. I also believe that was one of the main reasons for all the entradas. Trying to find new routes to move wealth to Rome or Catholic Colonies.

Mike

Where does that put the alleged Arizona Jesuit caches then? You've stated numerous times that the expulsion caught the Jesuits flat-footed in Arizona, leading to a situation where documentation of their caches' locations was not accomplished and the caches became lost. Now it sounds more like you're speculating that the loot may have been removed to the Sea of Cortez, then to the Philippines prior to 1767. Makes sense logistically, but it takes the wind out of the "lost Jesuit cache" legends.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

THEY SENT QUITE A BIT TO THE CABALLO MTS, BUT THIS WAS OVER AN EXTENDED PERIOD, BUT WHY NOT JUST BEFORE THE EXPULSION ?

 

[deducer]

I can give you a lengthy answer to that question, and I will if pushed. I've done it a few times earlier at length in other threads and am tired of repeating the same stuff. Here's an outline:

1. Enormous logistics problems requiring either numerous forays or an expedition rivaling the Coronado Expedition.
2. No oral histories, rumors, campfire tales, traditions from any of the many humans en route.
3. The Apaches. Long history of violence against all things Mexican.
4. The Franciscans. New Mexico was theirs.
5. The Spanish. If they were bribable, why move the treasure at all - just hide it somewhere in Mexico.
6. The bullion. All Caballo rumors are of gold bars. Tayopa and most Mexican mines were silver mines.

I generally don't give much credence to newspaper articles, other than for their adventure content. This one is odd. It infers that the Jesuits knew what they were looking for and where, and curiously, these brothers were not apparently trying to hide their intentions. If all said in the clipping is true, one might wonder if these guys found what they were seeking and removed it later.

Sorry for the tardy response- here are my answers:

1. Logistics were not a problem for the organization. It was supremely organized and efficient for the most part. They had a sophisticated trade system in place, and one that was hands down the best to the point that the Jesuits were dominant and used it as leverage. From Conflicts in Colonial Sonora: Indians, Priests, and Settlers by David Yetman:



2. There have been plenty of oral traditions about the "black robes," especially told by Native Americans. There are numerous examples and I'm happy to provide a few.

3/4/5: Are you sure you're not falling into the trap of thinking like a modern man? Yes, the area now known as New Mexico theoretically and on paper, belonged to the Franciscans, but was it ever enforceable, realistically? At the time the Jesuits were most active in Pimeria Alta, what is today known as the Arizona territory had only one presidio, in Tubac, founded in 1752 (Tucson and Terrenate came later), and the New Mexico territory had none save for the one in Santa Fe (and even then, it didn't become a military threat until the 2nd half of the 18th century, long after the Jesuits had gone) and and much later another in Santa Cruz, and they were ill-equipped, poorly staffed, and corruption was rampant. On top of all that, they were constantly under attack by the Apache, Navajo, Ute, and Comanche. Provincial governors were forever pleading with Mexico for additional reinforcements and supplies (they got neither).

And has been mentioned, loyalty was one big gray area when it came to the far frontier (unlike back home in Mexico City). It was not difficult for quite a few Spanish soldiers to side with the Jesuits, especially the Basques, of which Juan Bautista de Anza was one, himself. Not surprisingly he was made a honorary Jesuit despite having completed none of the prerequisites for priesthood.

 

[deducer]

I always liked Rojas/Roxas from Arizpe (who was Visitor General in 1765 when I think they started hiding stuff). At least for Pimeria Alta anyway.

Mike

He, too, is high on my short list, but I strongly believe he came to finish up what others started, a long, long time ago.

 

[deducer]

So, you're saying that the Jesuits began caching valuables in Arizona two years prior to the expulsion?

Hardly- they would have taken their lessons from the 1680 Pueblo Revolt and started doing it from day one. I suspect Kino institutionalized this practice and put it into widespread use, so by the time they had to accelerate the caching, they were old hands at it.

 

[wrmickel1]

Deducer

I believe your pretty well spot on, But I don't believe it was cached to be left for to long. It was placed at The Arches for pick up and shuttle down to Mexico City to be loaded on Ships on a strict schedule. That's why the maps say 18 places, Now I never counted or tried to find all the Arches in the Superstitions some have fallen by now I assume but I would bet there was 18 at one time. All visible from the trails through there. To me the maps are more a directions to a supply chain.

Babymick1

 

[sdcfia]

Sorry for the tardy response- here are my answers:

1. Logistics were not a problem for the organization. It was supremely organized and efficient for the most part. They had a sophisticated trade system in place, and one that was hands down the best to the point that the Jesuits were dominant and used it as leverage. From Conflicts in Colonial Sonora: Indians, Priests, and Settlers by David Yetman:

View attachment 1480908

2. There have been plenty of oral traditions about the "black robes," especially told by Native Americans. There are numerous examples and I'm happy to provide a few.

3/4/5: Are you sure you're not falling into the trap of thinking like a modern man? Yes, the area now known as New Mexico theoretically and on paper, belonged to the Franciscans, but was it ever enforceable, realistically? At the time the Jesuits were most active in Pimeria Alta, what is today known as the Arizona territory had only one presidio, in Tubac, founded in 1752 (Tucson and Terrenate came later), and the New Mexico territory had none save for the one in Santa Fe (and even then, it didn't become a military threat until the 2nd half of the 18th century, long after the Jesuits had gone) and and much later another in Santa Cruz, and they were ill-equipped, poorly staffed, and corruption was rampant. On top of all that, they were constantly under attack by the Apache, Navajo, Ute, and Comanche. Provincial governors were forever pleading with Mexico for additional reinforcements and supplies (they got neither).

And has been mentioned, loyalty was one big gray area when it came to the far frontier (unlike back home in Mexico City). It was not difficult for quite a few Spanish soldiers to side with the Jesuits, especially the Basques, of which Juan Bautista de Anza was one, himself. Not surprisingly he was made a honorary Jesuit despite having completed none of the prerequisites for priesthood.

1. I certainly agree that the Jesuits had the potential to organize and execute such an operation, but the alleged amount of bullion transferred would require a massive effort - one that would be extremely difficult to carry out secretly in territory they did not occupy.

2. My concern would only be the Apache, in whose territory the expedition would have to pass and return. These bad boys were active in the Janos to Santa Rita to Rio Grande region, raiding and trading around the Janos presidio, and ambushing and killing Mexicans anywhere in the Gila and on the Rio Grande. They were hunters/gatherers/warriors/thieves - not subjugated in any way until the late 19th century. Neither the Apaches' history nor the military records at Janos mention such an intrusive operation, either passing through Apacheria or on the Rio Grande.

3/4/5. Long a Franciscan outpost, the Spanish established a presidio at Janos following collateral damage (destruction) from the 1680 uprising. This presidio became the base from which numerous forays against the Apache in southern New Mexico were initiated. Likewise, El Paso was permanently settled in 1680. Traffic increased up and down the river, Santa Fe-El Paso-Chihuahua at this point. Was control of the region "enforceable"? Probably not, if the Spanish's record against the Apache is any indication.

I guess the Jesuits thought like "modern men" too. They must have wondered - how could a large expedition (hundreds of men, hundreds of animals) travel weeks through this unsecured region, establish a work camp on El Camino Real, then return weeks through the area unreported? Collusion with disloyal Spanish, and buddying with the Apache seems to be the only answer. That's a mighty, mighty thin argument that seems to be the only way that Noss map can be swallowed.

Be that as it may, the same nagging question dogs this story as it does the Arizona Jesuit cache rumors. Why was the loot left in the Caballos? Why wouldn't the Navy Seals of their day have returned later to recover it?

 

[wrmickel1]

But each Arch has a common factor, This one has the turkey that supplies where to look. And the others have similar marks.

 

[audigger53]

Some have said that the Jesuits may have operated clandestinely in New Mexico despite a Papal Bull that gave the territory exclusively to the Franciscans, at least up to about the 1760s. I agree that Kino himself may have snuck into southern New Mexico on a spying mission searching for something specific, but as far as the Mexicans sending huge expeditions to cache bullion in New Mexico is concerned, I don't see it happening. Here's a map of select Spanish military activity in the probable period in question. Other earlier activities dating to ca 1715 to Todos Santos (not on this map) establish that the Crown had strong intel in the region, leaving bribery as the only way the Jesuits may have been active on the Rio Grande.

View attachment 1479728
Campaigning on the Upper Gila, 1756
Kessell, 1971, NM Historical Review

Good then I won't tell you the story we heard, with conformation about Gold in NM. No nothing to do with Noss.

 

[nmth]

Sorry for the tardy response- here are my answers:
..... <snip> in Pimeria Alta, what is today known as the Arizona territory had only one presidio, in Tubac, founded in 1752 (Tucson and Terrenate came later), and the New Mexico territory had none save for the one in Santa Fe (and even then, it didn't become a military threat until the 2nd half of the 18th century, long after the Jesuits had gone) and and much later another in Santa Cruz, and they were ill-equipped, poorly staffed, and corruption was rampant. <snip>.....

At least one map I've run across very clearly shows a fort (what does it take to be a full-blown Presidio?) on the South/West side of the Rio Grande at San Diego mountain. It's one of Bernardo de Miera y Pacheco's maps, but not the two most common ones that pop up on Google lately. For those interested in the Caballos angle, this is spitting distance away.

I've never found anyone who could tell me anything about said supposed fort. The fort symbol is labeled "presidio proiectado". Incidentally, El Paso del Norte does not show a presidio like it does in many other maps. It is labeled with house and church symbols. So the big symbol up north past modern-day 'Cruces is all the more curious in comparison.

If anybody finds the map I'm describing, could you post a link? I have a low-res fragment, but not a good one, and I have no link to share, sorry. San Diego mountain was a crossing spot, and last rio water before the Jornada going north. The map's date may help or hurt presidio-supported theories regarding the various factions being discussed.

 

[sdcfia]

Good then I won't tell you the story we heard, with conformation about Gold in NM. No nothing to do with Noss.

Won't tell us? Why not? Does it mention a Royal Engineer?

 

[sdcfia]

At least one map I've run across very clearly shows a fort (what does it take to be a full-blown Presidio?) on the South/West side of the Rio Grande at San Diego mountain. It's one of Bernardo de Miera y Pacheco's maps, but not the two most common ones that pop up on Google lately. For those interested in the Caballos angle, this is spitting distance away.

I've never found anyone who could tell me anything about said supposed fort. The fort symbol is labeled "presidio proiectado". Incidentally, El Paso del Norte does not show a presidio like it does in many other maps. It is labeled with house and church symbols. So the big symbol up north past modern-day 'Cruces is all the more curious in comparison.

If anybody finds the map I'm describing, could you post a link? I have a low-res fragment, but not a good one, and I have no link to share, sorry. San Diego mountain was a crossing spot, and last rio water before the Jornada going north. The map's date may help or hurt presidio-supported theories regarding the various factions being discussed.

It's a campsite at the entrance to Jornado del Muerto, just a few miles north of Fort Selden. I don't know about a fort being there in the earlier days.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

hi my friend, "presidio projectado " means projected, not actual..

 

[Riverbum]

sdcfia, Those "San Diego" Mtns. have abandoned mining equip. and Indian Petrogyphs all over that place, deep sand and plenty of old pottery pieces. Just feet to the east of that area is I-25 Border Patrol Station. I have been followed by them out there but was unaware of that until I got ready to leave , when they came up to me and announced that they "weren't " following me. I have no problem with this, that what we pay them to do. This site is really an important river crossing as you mentioned to either travel one side of the Caballos (east The Jornada de Muerte) or the river side, (west) I read some old history pertaining to a German man (El Alemain, I believe). A small site north of here carries this name. Many Artifacts lay scatter in the deep sand on this stretch used by ancient man for 1000 plus years...............This way the last good place to cross the river from El Paso/ Cruces to possibly T or C area

 

[EarnieP]

At least one map I've run across very clearly shows a fort (what does it take to be a full-blown Presidio?) on the South/West side of the Rio Grande at San Diego mountain. It's one of Bernardo de Miera y Pacheco's maps, but not the two most common ones that pop up on Google lately. For those interested in the Caballos angle, this is spitting distance away.

I've never found anyone who could tell me anything about said supposed fort. The fort symbol is labeled "presidio proiectado". Incidentally, El Paso del Norte does not show a presidio like it does in many other maps. It is labeled with house and church symbols. So the big symbol up north past modern-day 'Cruces is all the more curious in comparison.

If anybody finds the map I'm describing, could you post a link? I have a low-res fragment, but not a good one, and I have no link to share, sorry. San Diego mountain was a crossing spot, and last rio water before the Jornada going north. The map's date may help or hurt presidio-supported theories regarding the various factions being discussed.

----
Is this related?

Presidio of San Elcerio (San Elizario)

https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/el_camino_real_de_tierra_adentro/Presidio_Chapel_of_San_Elizario.html

"In 1788, the site was the chosen spot to locate a strategic military stronghold on New Spain’s western frontier. Soldiers from San Elzeario (also San Elceario), a decommissioned Spanish fort in Guajoquilla, Mexico (present-day Chihuahua), occupied the new presidio to defend area residents and El Camino Real caravans from Apaches."

[Edit:]

And this;

"In 1683, the Governor of New Mexico, Don Jironza Petriz de Crúzate, established the Presidio de Nuestra Señora del Pilar y Glorioso San José in the vicinity of Our Lady of Guadalupe Mission in Juárez, which was transferred to San Elizario in 1773 and renamed Presidio de San Eleázaro."