Cave of gold bars

[nmth]

It's a campsite at the entrance to Jornado del Muerto, just a few miles north of Fort Selden. I don't know about a fort being there in the earlier days.

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sdcfia, you are one of the better researchers here, certainly better than me. This area of the forum has a lot of good researchers. Very little parking lot cloud symbol gazing...

If you can dig up the map, I'd really appreciate it. Plus, if you find it independently, it may mean more.

Interesting that a lot of my offline buddies refer to "the" Miera y Pacheco map, when there are quite a few. I need to get them all in one place... Remember the more rare one Matt or some one dug up when I pointed out "Caballos" was actually an old name?

This overall geographic area is very, very "boots on the ground" for me. I'll add to/correct remote perceptions to solidify the ground truth if wanted. Trust when I say the map symbol has not even a local supposition about it; it's an overlooked thing entirely to this point as far as I know. There are some other presidio legends in the area, but not at that spot. All the Anglo fort stuff is well-known (even the obscure) - yawn...

 

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[markmar]

Joe

I believe you saw the little heart in my picture from the big hole/cave region which i have posted before .

 

[gollum]

Where does that put the alleged Arizona Jesuit caches then? You've stated numerous times that the expulsion caught the Jesuits flat-footed in Arizona, leading to a situation where documentation of their caches' locations was not accomplished and the caches became lost. Now it sounds more like you're speculating that the loot may have been removed to the Sea of Cortez, then to the Philippines prior to 1767. Makes sense logistically, but it takes the wind out of the "lost Jesuit cache" legends.

You must have been reading history books and not my posts if you read that the Arizona Expulsions caught the Jesuits flat footed. HAHAHA The only thing that MIGHT have caught them off guard were the expulsions from French Lands (it didn't involve any political intrigues). I have ALWAYS said the Jesuits had to have known what was coming. Maybe not exactly when, but the writing was certainly on the wall for anyone smart enough to see it (and the Jesuits were/are plenty smart).

For those not keeping up, here is what I believed happened:

The Jesuit Order had been amassing great wealth. They got it legally, through tithes, deals, slave trading, and wills of dying Wealthy Spaniards. They also obtained it illegally through mining and businesses for profit. The wealth they obtained legally, they used in their different Missions, Churches, Rectorates, Colegios, and Cabaceras. The wealth they obtained illegally, they secreted off to Rome to the East and Manila to the West. They operated in the most Northerly and remote regions so as to hide their mule trains of wealth. That is why IMHO Padre Kino built a 60 foot ship at Caborca to service the Baja Missions (before he found that Baja was a peninsula and not an island). A small Mission at the Northern end of the Sea of Cortez named San Ysidro is only on two maps. It is right next to a Tinaja (water source). Tinajas are not named. I believe Kino's Ship would haul wealth to San Ysidro, then go on South carrying supplies to Loreto. From San Ysidro, a mule train would carry the wealth to the Pacific Coast of Baja to await a Manila Galleon. Once Baja's status as a peninsula was established, Missions along the current US/Mexico Border were established as weigh stations for those mule trains. From those Missions on to the Pacific Missions to the same Manila Galleons.

The Jesuit Order operated in the same manner all over the world. They involved themselves in political intrigues, and sought to dethrone Kings that weren't (in their opinions) true Catholics (i.e. Gunpowder Plot, King John of Portugal, and Charles III of Spain). After all the Asian Expulsions, and when they were expelled from Portuguese Lands in 1759, I think they began slowly moving all their wealth. After France expelled them from her lands, they had to step things up. I think 1765 is when things started moving for them. I believe they thought they had more time than it turned out they actually did. Palafox and Pombal had been bending King Charles III's ear and badmouthing the Jesuits for many years. When Jesuits were arrested in Spain giving money to people to continue the Esquillace Riots in 1766, everything came to a screeching halt. That was the point when Charles started paying attention to those people that had been telling him the Jesuits were trying to dethrone him. With all of their contacts in Royal Circles, I am fairly certain they knew when Charles sent emissaries to closely watch the Jesuits in 1766. Once the surveillance started, they had to act as if all their correspondences were being monitored, and they had no way to secretly send anything to Rome. All the mule trains of wealth also had to cease for fear of being found out. I think this was the point where they realized they couldn't ship anything anywhere. They were forced to hide anything that hadn't already been shipped overseas. I believe the Father Visitador of each Rectorate was responsible for hiding the wealth of that Rectorate. They had approximately one year to hide everything (from mid-1766 until September 25th 1767). During the night of September 25-26, 1767, they were all rounded up and arrested (except for Father Och SJ who was sick, and the Baja Missions which took a while longer). The Padres were force marched across Mexico and trans-shipped in slave-ship like conditions back to Europe. I think the death toll was somewhere around 20-30%. I believe many of the Padres that held the secrets of the locations of much wealth died in transit and took those secrets with them.

MIke

 

[sdcfia]

... This overall geographic area is very, very "boots on the ground" for me. I'll add to/correct remote perceptions to solidify the ground truth if wanted. Trust when I say the map symbol has not even a local supposition about it; it's an overlooked thing entirely to this point as far as I know. There are some other presidio legends in the area, but not at that spot. All the Anglo fort stuff is well-known (even the obscure) - yawn...

It's hard not to know a few things when you live in the middle of where it happened. Here's the Santa Rita del Cobre fort, originally triangular with circular towers on the corners, photographed in the early 20th century - one of the towers was all that was left as the mine swallowed it up (dark structure, right-center). The last picture is a 2/3 replica of the Santa Rita fort that was built in Pinos Altos in the 1970s by a local contractor/historian.

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

So a map of them missions before 1766 would look good .
Was this all the missions or Az. Mostly ?

 

[sdcfia]

... I believe many of the Padres that held the secrets of the locations of much wealth died in transit and took those secrets with them.
MIke

It's certainly possible.

 

[EarnieP]

Interesting Presidio article;

https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/nfn01

 

[nmth]

hi my friend, "presidio projectado " means projected, not actual..

The map definitely shows an "i", not a "j". Could it equally be a "t"? I'd think to look for others being j's or t's on the same map or in other documents of the same timeframe.

In any event, why even consider a big fortification there? It's sort of nowhere all things considered (per conventional thought). Very few presidio/fort markings on any maps of the region from Monterey to Santa Fe de San Franciso de Asis. Once sdcfia or whoever (maybe me?) finds the complete map (in my ancient archive?) and posts it or a link, then we'll all see how this fort symbol sticks out like a sore thumb relative to the rest of the map, and even other maps.

Interestingly, when ever have we seen an "aspirational" mark on a map? Like city planning in the middle of nowhere in 1600's-1700's?!?

Thanks for all your many posts, and this one, RTD. BTW, Irony is the strongest force in the Universe...

 

[nmth]

----
Is this related?

Presidio of San Elcerio (San Elizario)

https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/el_camino_real_de_tierra_adentro/Presidio_Chapel_of_San_Elizario.html

"In 1788, the site was the chosen spot to locate a strategic military stronghold on New Spain’s western frontier. Soldiers from San Elzeario (also San Elceario), a decommissioned Spanish fort in Guajoquilla, Mexico (present-day Chihuahua), occupied the new presidio to defend area residents and El Camino Real caravans from Apaches."

[Edit:]

And this;

"In 1683, the Governor of New Mexico, Don Jironza Petriz de Crúzate, established the Presidio de Nuestra Señora del Pilar y Glorioso San José in the vicinity of Our Lady of Guadalupe Mission in Juárez, which was transferred to San Elizario in 1773 and renamed Presidio de San Eleázaro."

Short answer: who knows? Could be. Likely answer: probably not.

Very interesting, nonetheless.

We'll recall that lots of old maps have an "El Paso" or "Presidio del Paso del Norte", as well an "El Paso de Las Juntas" to the south. Got some waybills from way down South there.

Main thing I picked up, especially after reading Sonnichsen's book lately, is that the Lipans got the very, very shortest end of the stick. One of my main local historian and field buddies is from that tribe. Lots of bad baloney all around. Not that he talks about it. The NM/AZ/West TX natives acted in their own way, and suffered in honor greatly because of it - for *generations*.

Let's hear more about Pilar....

 

[EarnieP]

Check out this online site;

Mexico Forts

Includes;
Spanish Presidios of the Northern Indian Revolts (1601 - 1698)
Spanish Presidios of the Provincias Internas (1700 - 1810)
Spanish Missions of Pimería Alta

"Presidio de Nuestra Señora del Pilar del Paso del Río del Norte (1683 - 1773), at Ciudad Juárez. Garrisoned by 50 men in 1683 and 1730. Initially located a few miles downstream of the town, relocated to the town in 1684. Relocated to Carrizal in 1773. The El Paso / Juárez area was considered part of the Provincia de Nuevo México until 1848. See also Mission de Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe." (Quote from site listed above.)
---------------------------------

Your interesting posts had me skipping around the internet researching 'Presidios' this afternoon.
All new to me. Thanks for turning me on to another fascinatiing part of our history.
This LDM site has some long tentacles!
(Had to be very careful using spell-check for 'tentacles' )

 

[sdcfia]

Main thing I picked up, especially after reading Sonnichsen's book lately, is that the Lipans got the very, very shortest end of the stick. One of my main local historian and field buddies is from that tribe. Lots of bad baloney all around. Not that he talks about it. The NM/AZ/West TX natives acted in their own way, and suffered in honor greatly because of it - for *generations*.

Some of the Lipan descendants faired better than others - at least if you feel like comparing POW camps. Yeah, the government's master/slave machine and being nestled up against Ruidoso are constant sticks in the Mescaleros' eyes, granted, but their res is a sweet piece of real estate by today's standards in New Mexico. At least they don't have to stare at worthless badlands. If whitey could figure out how to steal those mountains back, they'd do it in a New York minute.

 

[deducer]

1. I certainly agree that the Jesuits had the potential to organize and execute such an operation, but the alleged amount of bullion transferred would require a massive effort - one that would be extremely difficult to carry out secretly in territory they did not occupy.

2. My concern would only be the Apache, in whose territory the expedition would have to pass and return. These bad boys were active in the Janos to Santa Rita to Rio Grande region, raiding and trading around the Janos presidio, and ambushing and killing Mexicans anywhere in the Gila and on the Rio Grande. They were hunters/gatherers/warriors/thieves - not subjugated in any way until the late 19th century. Neither the Apaches' history nor the military records at Janos mention such an intrusive operation, either passing through Apacheria or on the Rio Grande.

3/4/5. Long a Franciscan outpost, the Spanish established a presidio at Janos following collateral damage (destruction) from the 1680 uprising. This presidio became the base from which numerous forays against the Apache in southern New Mexico were initiated. Likewise, El Paso was permanently settled in 1680. Traffic increased up and down the river, Santa Fe-El Paso-Chihuahua at this point. Was control of the region "enforceable"? Probably not, if the Spanish's record against the Apache is any indication.

I guess the Jesuits thought like "modern men" too. They must have wondered - how could a large expedition (hundreds of men, hundreds of animals) travel weeks through this unsecured region, establish a work camp on El Camino Real, then return weeks through the area unreported? Collusion with disloyal Spanish, and buddying with the Apache seems to be the only answer. That's a mighty, mighty thin argument that seems to be the only way that Noss map can be swallowed.

Be that as it may, the same nagging question dogs this story as it does the Arizona Jesuit cache rumors. Why was the loot left in the Caballos? Why wouldn't the Navy Seals of their day have returned later to recover it?

All good points.

I would argue, however much it seems to go against logic, that pack trains were much safer than presidios and less prone to attack partly because the Apache would have seen such things as much less of a threat (they, themselves were nomads, after all) than a fixed outpost. They probably engaged in palaver and trade with trains.

Also, the Apache almost never traveled in large groups, so if they encountered a pack train by chance, they were very likely vastly outnumbered, and unorganized, and would immediately realize the futility of attacking a well-armed pack train that would just be gone by tomorrow.

A fixed outpost, on the other hand, allowed time for the Apache to organize, summon factions of their tribes or to form alliances with other tribes and beef up for an extended attack or raid.

 

[sdcfia]

All good points.

I would argue, however much it seems to go against logic, that pack trains were much safer than presidios and less prone to attack partly because the Apache would have seen such things as much less of a threat (they, themselves were nomads, after all) than a fixed outpost. They probably engaged in palaver and trade with trains.

Also, the Apache almost never traveled in large groups, so if they encountered a pack train by chance, they were very likely vastly outnumbered, and unorganized, and would immediately realize the futility of attacking a well-armed pack train that would just be gone by tomorrow.

A fixed outpost, on the other hand, allowed time for the Apache to organize, summon factions of their tribes or to form alliances with other tribes and beef up for an extended attack or raid.

Those are good points too. We know that, like all intelligent warriors, the Apaches rarely engaged an enemy that they knew they couldn't defeat - typically by ambush. We also know that they not only took what they wanted or could use, but would attack and kill intruders regardless what useful goods they were carrying, if any. I guess the argument boils down to trying to establish whether this phantom Mexican pack train(s) existed at all - which at this point is purely speculative.

My unproven working hypothesis about the source of the unconfirmed massive vaults in the Caballos - based on where the gold could have originated, the relative ease of transport, and, interestingly, Noss's own assays of some of the bars (which I believe were recovered from the Caballos, not Victorio Peak), indicates that it came from the Santa Rita-Pinos Altos region. PA was a gold camp; Santa Rita del Cobre, in addition to massive copper harvesting, originally recovered large amounts of gold from the many earlier shallow workings, and most recent core-drilling has revealed very high-grade gold close to the Kneeling Nun. This extensive mineralized zone is a documented and proven significant producer in the modern era - ca 1800 to present - and an alleged far greater producer prior to 1800, quite a mysterious time for the region. Of course, this hypothesis also would include the Apache menace.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

All very true Sdc, but again - to the point of being boring - I feel that NP's lil map is most likely genuine since it posts data that was unknown in Noss' time. It shows definite trails from Sonora, Chihuahua converging on the Eastern side of the Caballo As for the reason, that it was a very convenient spot to hold materiel for the Irregular Jesuit controlled ship arrival .It saved approx. 2/3 rds of the land travel by using the Rio Del Norte as it's transportation, Simply rafting it down the Rio. Far faster, and cheaper.

Which reminds me, there must have been several raft breakups / mishaps. Were tne Gold bars ever recovered ?

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Frankly nmth, with my imperfect Spanish, pro ? ectado leaves only two candidate in the alphabet, a 'J' or 'T' not being puckish, but with an old map we have to be relatively correct. The 'J' apparently is more correct.

 

[sdcfia]

... I feel that NP's lil map is most likely genuine since it posts data that was unknown in Noss' time. ...

That would depend on when Noss created the map. Exactly what data are you referring to?

 

[cactusjumper]

All good points.

I would argue, however much it seems to go against logic, that pack trains were much safer than presidios and less prone to attack partly because the Apache would have seen such things as much less of a threat (they, themselves were nomads, after all) than a fixed outpost. They probably engaged in palaver and trade with trains.

Also, the Apache almost never traveled in large groups, so if they encountered a pack train by chance, they were very likely vastly outnumbered, and unorganized, and would immediately realize the futility of attacking a well-armed pack train that would just be gone by tomorrow.

A fixed outpost, on the other hand, allowed time for the Apache to organize, summon factions of their tribes or to form alliances with other tribes and beef up for an extended attack or raid.

deducer,

The Apache would not have been much interested in WHAT the pack trains were carrying, but they were very interested in the animals carrying the load. Each night spent in Apacheria was a night they went shopping for steaks. Food was usually the primary motivation for Apache interest, and they did love those mules.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

One of the most notorious stories of Superstition treasures, is where the Peralta's and the Apache had a running battle with the Apache, ending up at the Massacre Grounds. Were the Peralta's only carrying gold ore, or do you imagine they had some supplies for survival as well? The Apache were said to have cut the packs off the mules onto the ground. They then ran away with their LOOT and ate them.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Morning SDC, ing , coffee ? Any time in his 'cut short' life time.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Joe,I hope that my long ago defunct steak wasn't from one of then. Too strong for my taste.